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Do powergamers ruin MMOs?

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  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,246
    Gorwe said:
    Do spikes ruin MTG?
    I play MTG but have no idea what a spike is.
    I had to search for it. It's a player who's enjoyment is determined by winning competitions. Honestly, when you move from casual playing to competitive play there is no going back. For instance I just made an enchantment based deck in MTGO. Nothing in the deck cost more than 3 mana to limit the amount of lands I draw and increase the speed into creating a fatty swinging more than 20 by turn 4.
    ultimateduck
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,904
    Over the course of the many years I've played MMO(RPGs) I've noticed a trend. There is a growing group of people that get into a game and rush to the end, skipping any and all content in between.

    You may ask "why is this a problem, they can play how they want". Well, I think it's because of the way a MMO(RPG) is designed. It is meant to be played at a different pace than how powergamers play it. While half the population is taking in the content, even if it's just a little, the other half is racing to the end, then complaining that there is no endgame.

    Sometimes this is a flaw of the game because there simply is no endgame. Perhaps the developers thought they would have a few weeks after release to implement at least some of the endgame content. But other times it's because the endgame requires a larger population that isn't there yet because they are actually enjoying the game. Of course, sometimes it's a combination of the two.

    This becomes an issue when the impatient powergamers go on an anti-[insert game here] rant campaign and quit, leaving the game with a substantially lower population which in turn has an effect on every other part of the game. Then, when other people listen to their nonstop ranting about how the game is incomplete, they will be swayed into not trying out what could be a great game because they are listening to people who really didn't play the game as it was meant to be played.

    This is not to say that some games deserve bad press and reviews. A crap game is a crap game. Some do not ,but they get bad reviews regardless because people skip what makes them a good game.

    This happened even in Everquest on launch. You're saying shit like "It is meant to be played" when that's just how you want people to play it. Games are fun to people in different ways. You're ruining MMORPGs for yourself by caring about how other people play it and trying to demonize them.
    Gdemamiultimateduck
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,206
    Gorwe said:
    A powergamer. Someone who plays only to win and hence uses annoying netdecks. Here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2002-03-08 .
    Loved that article... I don't play Magic since about that time (late '90s, early 2000s), but I was totally a Johnny :)

    Still am, in a sense. That's why I love Freeform in CO, or loved the Wheel in TSW, and was against the skill culling in several games in the name of "those skills are boring and nobody cares about them". (LotRO comes to mind at HD and the trait tree revamp, removing more than 1/3 of the skills)

    I'm a theory-crafter in the good way, for the fun itself, and not even for the win. Those are the min-maxxers in my terminology.
    I couldn't care less about TTK, about 0.5 more overall sustained dps, and all those made-up crap. All what matters to me is how much fun it is to build and play. Building is half of the fun, and if there's a win at the end, that's just icing the cake.
    Gorwe
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430
    I consider myself a powergamer. I optimize my characters in every way and try to find the best way to play.

    However what the OP talks about is more of a speedrunner. If people want to speedrun their MMO, why, leave them to do that.

    MMOs by nature are games that should provide longterm motivation to play them, and this means I'll not be in a hurry to level in them, but rather try to progress in all areas. This includes for example exploration and crafting, just to name two fields most MMOs will offer.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    Utinni said:
    This happened even in Everquest on launch. You're saying shit like "It is meant to be played" when that's just how you want people to play it. Games are fun to people in different ways. You're ruining MMORPGs for yourself by caring about how other people play it and trying to demonize them.
    When game developers make a game, they have an idea of how it's meant to be played. I don't think foregoing all of their hard work creating content to rush to the end was what they wanted for people who play the game they put hard work into. Developers do make games that are meant to be played a certain way. If I played Overwatch and just waved at people saying "hi" during a match, I would not be playing the game as it is meant to be played. MMO(RPGs) are no different, there are just more options available. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

    As I said previously, I don't generally let other people ruin my game experience directly. I was referring to them ruining the genre as a whole.

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,904
    Utinni said:
    This happened even in Everquest on launch. You're saying shit like "It is meant to be played" when that's just how you want people to play it. Games are fun to people in different ways. You're ruining MMORPGs for yourself by caring about how other people play it and trying to demonize them.
    When game developers make a game, they have an idea of how it's meant to be played. I don't think foregoing all of their hard work creating content to rush to the end was what they wanted for people who play the game they put hard work into. Developers do make games that are meant to be played a certain way. If I played Overwatch and just waved at people saying "hi" during a match, I would not be playing the game as it is meant to be played. MMO(RPGs) are no different, there are just more options available. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

    As I said previously, I don't generally let other people ruin my game experience directly. I was referring to them ruining the genre as a whole.

    "Rushing"in an MMO is playing more per day than another person. The experience required to level is roughly (hybrid penalties) the same for everyone. They are experiencing the same content as you just before you do. Are you saying you want developers to put a play-time cap per day/week on players? 

    " If I played Overwatch and just waved at people saying "hi" during a match, I would not be playing the game as it is meant to be played. MMO(RPGs) are no different, there are just more options available. This isn't a hard concept to grasp."
    Yea trolling in a team based shooter is the same as leveling fast in an MMORPG. 

    Perhaps you just need to stop worrying about how others play video games. Hell, just stop playing them all together. People who want their own petty jealousies to determine game development are ruining games not the people playing them passionately. 
    Gdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,228
    Maurgrim said:
    It's the mentality of "games starts at endgame" that ruins it.
    I agree. If this is actually true for a game, there is a problem with the game calling itself "RPG."
    Narug

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    Utinni said:
    "Rushing"in an MMO is playing more per day than another person. The experience required to level is roughly (hybrid penalties) the same for everyone. They are experiencing the same content as you just before you do. Are you saying you want developers to put a play-time cap per day/week on players? 



    Perhaps you just need to stop worrying about how others play video games. Hell, just stop playing them all together. People who want their own petty jealousies to determine game development are ruining games not the people playing them passionately. 
    Playing more is part of it, but there's more to it than just "playing more hours a day". If that was the case, everyone would hit capped level after the same time /played in a game. This simply isn't the case. A powergamer will level much faster in terms of time /played compared to someone who is just leveling, even if that person is taking in only a fraction of the content.

    Perhaps you need to step outside more. Once again (since your reading comprehension seems rudimentary) I could care less how people play. Powergamers rarely effect my in game experience. It was a question that revolved around how games are developed and whether powergamers are effecting how MMO(RPGS) are made and how they progress after release as a whole, not my own personal problems in game. This subject seems to have triggered you in some way. You are either being purposefully obtuse or you're just an idiot that can't see past his own nose.

    Take your perception of my personal issues out of the equation. This is about how powergamers effect MMO(RPGs) as a whole.

    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,352
    edited November 2019
    Most research (from front page of google) suggest mmorpg plays an average of 20 hours per week.  The outlier would play 5+ hours per day, which consist of 25% of their players).

    Many mmorpg only takes around 50 hours to reach max level....  

    So tell me base on those numbers what make you think people are skipping content...  People just play too much...

  • XatshXatsh Member UncommonPosts: 381
    I disagree that is not the problem. And games that lack content for these player are right to be criticized. And optimizing your progression is a good thing, it makes you a good player.

    The hardcores/no lifers are the ones who would stay with the game unless they get bored. These are the ones playing WoW, FFXI, Lineage for 10yrs + strait with no breaks. The casuals are the flaky ones, come and go just like it was an offline game.

    AS for the people who "rush" to endgame, well Endgame is where 99% of your mmo life is, yet most mmos today have less then 10hrs of progression content a week at endgame once you learn the content. So any game that lacks endgame is well lacking a game.

    If endgame is not out at launch and your games main story takes ~28-35hrs... devs do not have weeks to release endgame content. They have DAYS to release it at most. Moral of the story... Do not release games with no endgame. now if your game say had 800hrs of meaningful fully narrated well thought out main story quest in each expansion before you get to endgame... then maby you can argue the game should not focus on endgame for a long time.

    Main problem is the devs casualized the genre to appeal to the masses, yet they are either too lazy or incapable of replacing the lost hours of game time with more content. Aka you remove 80% of the grind/work, you need to release 4xs the content every content release. The average mmo game went from 40+hrs of content a week to 10hrs of content if you are lucky. It is a myth that the mmo gamers no longer put in hours... 35hrs a week was normal back in the day. There are still alot of ppl who do that today both older gamers like me and the younger crowd as well. Those people are the ones fed up with the current genre and those are the ones who complain and I say very rightly so. The lack of content use to NEVER be a problem in a AAA mmo. Now it is the main problem in almost all of them.




    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,352
    The OP described Age of Conan at launch time.  I leveled a character to max level and found there is no end content and quit soon after.  I didn't really skip content.  I'm just an addicted gamer.  

    I suppose there are people who rush content because they intend to quit after they reach max level.  There are also people who rush contend because they want to experience end game but found out they don't enjoy the end game.  

  • NarugNarug Member UncommonPosts: 755
    It would be better if MMORPGs just be called MMOGs from now on.

    There's no roleplaying or anything else good (exploration) in these things anymore.

    Hell just call them MMOCPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Competition Playing Games.

    Heck at least games like WoW are partially honest about it having Esports on their web pages.

    All these games are for the min-maxers, speed rushers, or whatever you wanna name them.

    Living in a spreadsheet & neglecting the world is the real killer.
    PalebaneGdemami

    AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017

    Refugee of Auberean

    Refugee of Dereth

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,203
    edited November 2019
    Large investment into scripted adventures and google ruins mmorpgs
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,958
    I don't think power gamers ruin anything. I think they are a diverse player in an MMO that is needed just like the casual player. 

    The power gamers grind and play all the time, flooding the market with rare gear as well as good gear that is obsolete for their level. 

    In Path of Exile, the no-lifers would be finding all the good gear after a few days playing and put it on the market. Allowing, people who play but over a long time the ability to buy it. The casual player, also comes along and doesn't care about min-maxing because they don't play much and they buy cheap but good gear. 

    The real people that ruin games are the cheaters, hackers, botters, etc. 

    Power gamers are a type of diverse playable character in the MMO world, which is why I like them. The casual players are also a type of diverse playable character in the MMO world, they each have their function. 

    We all interact with all types of players on the market that help the game keep afloat. 
    Gdemamicameltosis
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    MMO's create power gamers.

    Anytime you set a level of achievement for something, a bar of excellence or a goal to strive for, especially if it comes with a reward that can be shown off to other players, then you've just created power gamers.

    There will always be someone who wants it first and does it first.

    Think about the raiding days of WoW, what was the biggest achievement when it was the top dog  MMO? 

    World firsts.

    "We were the world first to clear the entire dungeon, everyone else is just second!"

    Then the dragon starts eating its own tail.  Now everyone wants to be world first and/or at least collect achievements as quickly as possible.

    Just try making a new character in SWTOR tonight and don't spacebar through all of the flashpoints.  Your team mates will scream, yell, curse at you and some will even drop the party if you don't hammer that spacebar through all conversations and get back to getting loot.

    HarikenGdemamiAlBQuirky
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 877
    edited November 2019
    Isn't this more an issue with the design of 'modern' MMOs? i.e. quick, easy, linear, and / or mindless... to saying nothing of all the best features (e.g. mounts, class defining abilities, etc.)  being level gated.

    MMOs also tend to reward higher level characters exponentially more for the same (or less) effort; e.g. spend X hours farming at low level and you will make maybe a few gold (which can buy an item that will last you maybe a few days)... spend those same hours farming at level cap and you will make vastly more (and buy an item that will last you several weeks, if not months).

    So really, I would ask: Why hang around at lower levels? What incentive is there to 'stop and smell the roses'?

    NB. Not that I consider myself a 'powergamer' and I don't often 'speed run' games, as I do enjoy exploring, but when games, and MMOs especially, treat levelling as a disposable grind and / or gating mechanism can you really expect players to place much value on it.

    AlBQuirky
  • foppoteefoppotee Member UncommonPosts: 250
    Do they ruin MMOs?  No.  Could they ruin MMOs?  Yes.  Then again, the so said powergamers wouldn't be the only ones ruining the MMO(s) but the gaming company in-charge as well by not reacting to the affects within the game.
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 508
    I prefer games that suit my style of gaming but saying powergamers ruin the game is like saying casuals ruin the game. Neither really ruin an MMO. The only group that can ruin an mmo is the single player expecting majority solo content.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,352
    It is more like casual gamer ruin MMORPG.  The reason people skip content is because they are casual, they dont' have the time.  Those people rush the game because they have other things to do or want to play other games.



    Gdemamiultimateduck
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,228
    H0urg1ass said:
    MMO's create power gamers.

    Anytime you set a level of achievement for something, a bar of excellence or a goal to strive for, especially if it comes with a reward that can be shown off to other players, then you've just created power gamers.

    There will always be someone who wants it first and does it first.

    Think about the raiding days of WoW, what was the biggest achievement when it was the top dog  MMO? 

    World firsts.

    "We were the world first to clear the entire dungeon, everyone else is just second!"

    Then the dragon starts eating its own tail.  Now everyone wants to be world first and/or at least collect achievements as quickly as possible.

    Just try making a new character in SWTOR tonight and don't spacebar through all of the flashpoints.  Your team mates will scream, yell, curse at you and some will even drop the party if you don't hammer that spacebar through all conversations and get back to getting loot.

    Would that be similar to saying "Porches/Ferraris created speeding tickets?" Just because a mechanic is present doesn't mean a playtype is created. Did buggy games create cheaters by having exploits?

    Many people have enough self control to not abuse the power in their autos or cheat with exploits. MMO(RPG)s need top end content, as a goal to shoot for. How one gets there is not caused by those goals, but rather how a player approaches getting there: Journey vs Destination.

    Again, powergamers only "ruin" MMOs when they vocalize their complaints, just like any other group that shout for changes.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,228
    edited November 2019
    DMKano said:
    Been powergaming with my guild for nearly 2 decades - we haven't ruined a single mmo yet
    How would you say "the genre" as a whole is doing?
    ultimateduck

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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