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Grouping and other social interactions

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  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    50,000 is the number typically needed for people to feel like they belong to a "state".

    Can MMOs build on this? [...] But what if an MMO allowed 50k per faction? Would we start to feel like we belonged to a virtual state? Would that additional sense of belonging improve retention, or perhaps give us extra incentive to help those around us?
    If you remember Turbine had a couple similar attempts(*) with the server competitions, though I have no idea how much it helped with retention... surely was a nice incentive to participate and gave some sort of belonging feel, even if "server pride" was never a big thing in LotRO, all the servers are friendly and welcoming.

    (*  I mean the bounder's bounty event, or the TTHTI runs with Sapience)
    Palebane
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,417
    Ironically some of the best social interactions I've had in an MMO in years was in ESO, a modern game with fast action combat and little downtime using voice chat apps. I say "ironically" because the bulk of ESO's game play even including 4-man instanced dungeons is all about not socializing and it has a reputation as a solo MMO.
     
    The persistent world PVP game play in Cyrodiil has a voice-chat culture mostly because you are typically in groups of 20+ that are almost impossible to coordinate well via text. The only time that happens reliably in PvE is in trials (ESOspeak for raids) for the same reason. 

    There's plenty of time between and even during high action moments to chat about anything and everything as long as people have some discipline about when to talk only about tactics and mechanics and when to chat more casually. It also helps in Cyrodiil PvP that you join "Campaigns" there that last anywhere from a week to a month and while in that cmapaign the zone acts just like an old-fashioned server with the same players day after day. The rest of the world exists in a megaserver where you're a lot more likely to run into strangers than acquaintances.

    It only takes a week of daily Cyrodiil PvP in a campaign to get to know the people there and socialize just like it was 1999. If you're sociable at all, you'll make friends there very quickly.

    But even in solo PvE, if you're not "voice shy," most guilds these days use voice chat. I've never really understood people who lament the decrease in MMO socializing but refuse to use a more modern tool like voice chat. In case you didn't know that's where the MMO socializing happens in 2019 totally independent of game combat mechanics.

    Changes in MMOs to encourage more socializing through forced downtime is really only a benefit for those who want to text chat exclusively. Not really needed for anyone else.

    AlBQuirkyPalebanecheeba
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    i agree with the above but thats also part of the cliqueness though.  If 20 people are on discord are you going to even see your guild chat?  you might not notice all the people who arent in your discord especially if you have 5 guilds.  

    im not against voice comms or anything, they are the future way of communicating. I would prefer that it was built into the game though. More people might use it. 

    it would also be neat to see a voice to text program so people could talk and you could see their text of it ingame.  


     
    IselinAlBQuirky
    We shall know them by their works
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,417
    Rungar said:
    i agree with the above but thats also part of the cliqueness though.  If 20 people are on discord are you going to even see your guild chat?  you might not notice all the people who arent in your discord especially if you have 5 guilds.  

    im not against voice comms or anything, they are the future way of communicating. I would prefer that it was built into the game though. More people might use it. 

    it would also be neat to see a voice to text program so people could talk and you could see their text of it ingame.  


     
    ESO has built-in voice chat out of necessity on the consoles. They even have "proximity voice" out in the world although most people turn that off due to all the people coughing and sneezing and yelling at their family with the mic on :)

    I agree that people would use it more on PC/Mac if it were built in. They talked about doing that when it launched on consoles but I haven't heard anything about it for quite a while.
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    something tells me in the end it will work like this: 

    you talk, its transformed to text then transformed to a chosen fantasy voice. Filtering out most of the unwanted but maintaining the wanted.  Like an mp3 for your voice and behavior. 
    PalebaneAmaranthar
    We shall know them by their works
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,930
    edited October 2019
    Iselin said:
    I've never really understood people who lament the decrease in MMO socializing but refuse to use a more modern tool like voice chat. In case you didn't know that's where the MMO socializing happens in 2019 totally independent of game combat mechanics.


    This is a huge issue for me. First of all, I really dont like talking on the phone. It annoys me. Voice chat is like talking on the phone. What I dislike even more than talking on the phone is talking on the phone when Im playing video games. Its distracting. Secondly, it kills the immersion. It can be difficult to take take a gnome seriously if they sound like a buff adult male. Same goes for a giant minotaur played by an 11 year old. I guess Im just screwed lol.
    Post edited by Palebane on
    AmarantharRungarAlBQuirkyKyleran

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,272
    edited October 2019
    'Social interactions' are only as important as the environment that reinforces them. If your game doesn't need social interactions, most people wont bother.

    You can argue that in games like WoW/FFXIV on the 'high-end' communication is heavily preferred, but that portion is so small compared to rest of the people that play. And no, participating in social interactions would not incentivize people to do them more often.

    The real problem comes down to 'season' content. Too many of these mmorpgs are trying to market their game to a fortnite/moba-ish crowd which is fine with stuff like this. However, they over look that the reason that crowd likes stuff like that is because they can just jump in and out as they want, which a mmorpg runs counter to.

    The playerbase cares about this, but not the companies. If they can keep someone interested long enough to spend on their cash shop, then its a win for them. Someone paying a monthly sub doesn't matter if someone is willing to throw down 50$ in the cash shop that month.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,188
    Rungar said:
    something tells me in the end it will work like this: 

    you talk, its transformed to text then transformed to a chosen fantasy voice. Filtering out most of the unwanted but maintaining the wanted.  Like an mp3 for your voice and behavior. 
    I really like this idea, but is it feasible to sound right? I don't know the state of current technology. And from what I see with current cell phone auto-correct, that would become another problem. 
    PalebaneAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,188
    Palebane said:
    Iselin said:
    I've never really understood people who lament the decrease in MMO socializing but refuse to use a more modern tool like voice chat. In case you didn't know that's where the MMO socializing happens in 2019 totally independent of game combat mechanics.


    This is a huge issue for me. First of all, I really dont like talking on the phone. It annoys me. Voice chat is like talking on the phone. What I dislike even more than talking on the phone is talking on the phone when Im playing video games. Its distracting. Secondly, it kills the immersion. I cant reliably take a gnome seriously if they sound like a buff adult male. Same goes for a giant minotaur played by an 11 year old. I guess Im just screwed lol.

    I completely agree. And it would break many o' hearts if players found out that that very cute Druid was actually a truck driver from Jersey. 
    PalebaneAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,417
    Rungar said:
    something tells me in the end it will work like this: 

    you talk, its transformed to text then transformed to a chosen fantasy voice. Filtering out most of the unwanted but maintaining the wanted.  Like an mp3 for your voice and behavior. 
    I really like this idea, but is it feasible to sound right? I don't know the state of current technology. And from what I see with current cell phone auto-correct, that would become another problem. 
    Voice morphing was done in EQ2 several years ago - it was called SOEmote. There are also several stand-alone apps that do it.
    AmarantharPalebaneAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,188
    Rungar said:
    so the answer to  the social interaction problem is actually pretty simple.  NPC guilds that have no leadership. This is a clique obliterating entity as it removes the power structure from the guild. 

    so the idea is that you join an npc guild of common purpose " fighters guild" and you get all the same stuff you see in regular guilds like special chats, guild hall, special vendors etc with the exception that  the leadership are all drama less npc's. 

    on the surface it would seem less social but think about how people operate in power structures you will soon realize that the true laid back atmosphere that would be created would overcome any shortcomings. 
    I like this. A lot! 
    This would fit right into my idea of socialism in Player Built and Run Cities posted above.
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7536253#Comment_7536253

    If these NPC guilds are world wide, they can also have chapters within cities to reduce the Dunbar's Number problem. With separate chats for communication. 

    These guilds would obviously have their own game play involved. Crafters, harvesters, explorers, adventurer excursions, tavern keeps, Alchemists, Mages (including enchanting) etc. 

    Contracts could be set up by a member and filled by others. 

    Players could organize Auctions, Dungeon Crawls, Player Events, Crafting fairs, etc. 

    Here's an issue to consider with or without this.
    One of the issues we've seen pop up in MMORPGs is top level players monopolizing trade. 
    I've always felt that this removed competition and thus the high prices for top end gear. 
    I also think that players should be able to make anything in the game, with it being very difficult to make the top end stuff and rare due to Mat requirements. But there should be a very good market for next to top end gear.
    I think that the time it takes to produce is way too short, as players crank out hundreds of swords in an hour. Maybe this is fixed in todays newer MMORPGs? 
    Palebane

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,188
    edited October 2019
    Iselin said:
    Rungar said:
    something tells me in the end it will work like this: 

    you talk, its transformed to text then transformed to a chosen fantasy voice. Filtering out most of the unwanted but maintaining the wanted.  Like an mp3 for your voice and behavior. 
    I really like this idea, but is it feasible to sound right? I don't know the state of current technology. And from what I see with current cell phone auto-correct, that would become another problem. 
    Voice morphing was done in EQ2 several years ago - it was called SOEmote. There are also several stand-alone apps that do it.
    Any issues? How well on a scale of 1-10 would you rate it? 
    I'm hoping for something above 6. 

    Myself, I think this should have a short range, with the ability to "chat group" on the fly (click on a player(s) and hit a button). I'd love a shout command for longer range communication. 
    (This is "in-game", right?)

    Once upon a time....

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,417
    Iselin said:
    Rungar said:
    something tells me in the end it will work like this: 

    you talk, its transformed to text then transformed to a chosen fantasy voice. Filtering out most of the unwanted but maintaining the wanted.  Like an mp3 for your voice and behavior. 
    I really like this idea, but is it feasible to sound right? I don't know the state of current technology. And from what I see with current cell phone auto-correct, that would become another problem. 
    Voice morphing was done in EQ2 several years ago - it was called SOEmote. There are also several stand-alone apps that do it.
    Any issues? How well on a scale of 1-10 would you rate it? 
    I'm hoping for something above 6. 

    Myself, I think this should have a short range, with the ability to "chat group" on the fly (click on a player(s) and hit a button). I'd love a shout command for longer range communication. 
    (This is "in-game", right?)
    Never used it. I'm only aware of it because it was interesting RPG tech so I read up on it. Here's a YT video from 2012 around the time of the SOEmote launch in EQ 2.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmeb1ntW8Dg

    PalebaneAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    what ever happened to that? I imagine it could actually work now. Theres another aspect though and that is simply getting rid of background noise making it a much more efficient way to communicate.  
    Palebane
    We shall know them by their works
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,594


    Here's an issue to consider with or without this.
    One of the issues we've seen pop up in MMORPGs is top level players monopolizing trade. 
    I've always felt that this removed competition and thus the high prices for top end gear. 
    I also think that players should be able to make anything in the game, with it being very difficult to make the top end stuff and rare due to Mat requirements. But there should be a very good market for next to top end gear.
    I think that the time it takes to produce is way too short, as players crank out hundreds of swords in an hour. Maybe this is fixed in todays newer MMORPGs? 
    Just focusing on this one issue.

    The problem of top-level players dominating trade is caused primarily because MMO economies are "information complete". This means that all players have access to all the information on the economy.

    Basically, the auction house is to blame. When you have a global auction house which everyone can see, it means the only thing you are able to compete on is price. When a buyer comes along, they don't have to worry about anything else except finding the lowest price for what they want. They have all the information and so they can make the best choice for them. An information complete economy is best for buyers.


    The downside is that because price is the only thing to compete on, it vastly benefits larger producers who can benefit from economies of scale. An endgame player probably has more time to devote to crafting, has mastered everything they need to as so can produce products cheaper/more efficiently than lower levels.


    A real life example is Amazon and the effects of the internet. In a pre-internet age, buyers like us would have to wander the high-street, visit multiple shops to check out the prices and then make a decision. We never have all the information - a shop in the next town over might have a sale we don't know about - and so shops end up competing on more than just price. Location becomes a big one, along with convenience. If you're anything like me and don't enjoy shopping, you probably just buy the first thing that comes vaguely close to what you want because you can't be arsed to keep searching.

    Then along comes the internet and Amazon. Suddenly, we move from an information-incomplete economy (where buyers don't know the price of all products from all sellers) to an information-complete economy. Any one of us can look up prices from loads of competitors online and then make the best purchase for us. Big sellers with good economies of scale (Amazon) can sell products cheaper than the highstreet, so what happens? We all buy through Amazon, and the high street dies.

    [Yes, i know there is more to it than that, like convenience of home deliveries vs being able to try something on. the core of the matter remains the information]



    So, if you want to build a game with a better economy for sellers, basically, you need to remove the global auction house and revert to an information-incomplete economy. That is the only way you can create a game where players can fulfil their dreams of being a proper crafter or shop keeper. But, never forget that what is good for sellers is bad for buyers, and vice versa. Just make sure the design fits with the vision of the game.

    After that point, then you can start worrying about how many of your items in game are craftable vs looted. Then you can look at item degredation. Then you can look at controlling inflation. Then you can look at balancing supply and demand.

    Will it work?

    ESO got pretty hammered from not having a global AH at launch. The inconvenience of having to search around for sellers was apparently too much for the average player. But, is that because the game was designed around loot and not around crafting? Was it because they didn't have servers and proper communities, so sellers could never make a genuine name for themselves?

    SWG originally had an information-incomplete economy and it worked very well there, but the whole game was built from the ground up around crafting and selling. Interestingly enough, the addition of the global AH in SWG supposedly resulted in the 3rd largest drop in subs. Something like 40% of the players had their own shops, but when they introduced the global AH, all those shops became worthless and loads of people quit (largest drop in subs was something to do with XP in groups, second was NGE, third the AH).
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharKyleran
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