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Why does P2W bother you so much?

13

Comments

  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687
    P2W is not traditionally huge advantages.. typically they are small QoL things. People who have the biggest issue are people who are broke... Someone who has disposable income, its not that big a deal.

    AlBQuirky

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station 
  • WarWitchWarWitch Member UncommonPosts: 314
    edited October 2019
    It doesn't bother me at all.  I do spend some on the games I really like gw2 and spaceborne just to support their costs. But really if you let your fun be determined by others I feel for you. I drive a Lil honda civic. I don't mind if my friends get a Vett etc at all. I still get their :).
    AlBQuirky
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,962
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money. 

    Overall, you could play the game for 60 hours and work an extra 40 hours over a month even at minimum wage and max taxes taken out, you'd get $350 for that which you'd be able to buy your sword. 

    onto another topic. yes if a game is PvP centric, then P2W would be a serious problem. Then again, i don't play an MMO for PvP . . . better to play Starcraft 1v1 on ladder where no luck is involved. 
    It's not the same for everyone.

    One player might make $250.00 in an hour or less. For another person that may be 4 days work (and zero ability to buy electric swords online because that is his rent money).

    I get that you can say well, one hour guy earned his money fair and square. Good for him. 

    But do we really want to import all the wage and net worth disparities in real life into a game?

    What if we played chess and, because I am rich (not really), I buy an extra queen for $1,000?

    Or what if we go to the theatre together and I say Cryomatrix, I will meet you back here after. I bought the best seats for me and my wife. I hear they have openings up in the nosebleed section for you and your spouse.

    There is enough of that in real life. i don't want to play that world in a simulation.
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money. 

    Overall, you could play the game for 60 hours and work an extra 40 hours over a month even at minimum wage and max taxes taken out, you'd get $350 for that which you'd be able to buy your sword. 

    onto another topic. yes if a game is PvP centric, then P2W would be a serious problem. Then again, i don't play an MMO for PvP . . . better to play Starcraft 1v1 on ladder where no luck is involved. 
    It's not the same for everyone.

    One player might make $250.00 in an hour or less. For another person that may be 4 days work (and zero ability to buy electric swords online because that is his rent money).

    I get that you can say well, one hour guy earned his money fair and square. Good for him. 

    But do we really want to import all the wage and net worth disparities in real life into a game?

    What if we played chess and, because I am rich (not really), I buy an extra queen for $1,000?

    Or what if we go to the theatre together and I say Cryomatrix, I will meet you back here after. I bought the best seats for me and my wife. I hear they have openings up in the nosebleed section for you and your spouse.

    There is enough of that in real life. i don't want to play that world in a simulation.


    I understand where you guys are coming from. The purity argument I wholeheartedly agree with. If there was a natural successor to SWG and then it had a P2W cash shop, i'd be mighty disappointed. 

    If PoE went P2W for real, it would seriously piss me off, i play mainly solo anyway, so it's not like it would affect me and there's no real PvP in the game any way. 

    Chess is a different type of game because it is a solely 1v1 game. If they had P2W in Starcraft 2 on 1v1 and if you paid $10 you get like 5 extra workers to start the game, i guarantee you I wouldn't have even downloaded the game. 

    P2W doesn't bother me that much mainly because i am not attracted to the games that have it and there are many alternatives. If I had no alternative, then I could see, how it would seriously piss me off. I wasn't saying P2W shouldn't bother you, I was just wondering why it bothers you. 



    Amathe
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,962
    Hatefull said:
    Games work best when it is a level playing field.

    Monopoly, for example, it is essential that all start on an even footing and either progress or regress from there. If one player starts with more cash than the others he/she is more likely to win.


    So I guess it used to bother me, but hasn't for quite a few years now.
    Right in terms of playing monopoly, a person who plays 16 hours a day compared to a person with a job, can have 10 dice rolls first before the other person gets a dice roll. 

    See how that works? 


    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • Tindale111Tindale111 Member UncommonPosts: 276
    It bothers me only if you can buy something that gives you an advantage but cant get in game ,or if they make it extremely hard to get EG 30 man raid T10 boss or something 
    CryomatrixAlBQuirkyultimateduck
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    P2W is hiring a professional gamer to train your kids, level up your character, or run dungeons to get special gear for you! :smile:
    AlBQuirky

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    edited October 2019
    P2W impacts game design.  Games are set up to bilk you for money to advance by making obstacles incredibly tedious (not fun) to access additional content that is fun.  The best (read sneakiest) ones have a more gradual gradient to lure you into commitment.  A great example of this practice is inventory (bag space).  You acquire a lot of loot by game design to make you want to buy more bags from the cash shop.  Early on in the game this is managed by the amount of loot you acquire that you need to use (for crafting, enhancements, etc) is low.  As you progress and get more invested, the requirements become greater and varied.  This puts pressure on the amount of inventory space you have to make the purchasing side to alleviate this issue more attractive.
    Many of those extremely tedious obstacles existed before p2w though.
    AlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AzamoreAzamore Newbie CommonPosts: 3
    I think that any f2p system should be 100% cosmetic. That’s why I don’t like P2W. Destiny 2 is a great example. You buy expansions to play a non subscription game however in it they have “seasons” like fortnite. Except instead of cosmetic stuff you can get exotic weapons and craft pieces that are very low drop rates or super tedious quests. That’s a really messed up P2w system cause you also have to grind as well lol. 

    I dont think exp boosts are p2w. Only gear is p2w imo 
    immoralthang
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,253
    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money.
    But the money part is NOT equal. Your time = money is not the same as my time = money.

    For me it is all about choices. Time is finite. Everyone gets 24 hours each day. No more, no less. What everyone chooses to do with those hours is all on those making the choice. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our salary. That is where the inequality lies.

    People chose to get married, to have children. People choose to work 80 hours a week jobs. People choose Netflix or playing sports over gaming.

    When all is said and done, we all have the same 24 hours each and every day ;)
    Cryomatrix

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    I have to say that we even doing P2W in P2P with no cash shop game . RMT is what we called
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,253
    edited October 2019
    I'm stealing your post from Kyleran's "Grouping" thread:

    In most games, crafting is stupidly implemented. 

    It was awesome in SWG. I came into the game via some RL friends and was handed a bunch of special resources and was able to make top level weapons. I had a weapons shop and repeat customers. It was absolutely fantastic. 

    If you're going to implement crafting then you need people to be known for their crafting. I was a gunsmith and was known for it. In EVE I created ships for other people and would have repeat customers. 

    In Entropia, given that there are shops and auction houses, it is difficult to establish yourself as a crafter as very few things in the game are in demand. Also, since price is the only thing that matters and there's no such thing as different quality, selling stuff is only about price. 

    I could conceivably construct weapons that are in demand but there is a lot of other concurrent crafters.

    Overall, I like the ability to play with people and the ability to not have to. I have a busy schedule and i'm not reliable to group with. I do always enjoy crafting and if I could find a game like EVE with a good population but in the fantasy world where I could make a name for myself by crafting, then i'd join it in a heart beat. 

    I should really go to an SWG emulator for real . . . but if a natural successor came out for SWG, i'd try to carve a niche for myself. Of course, i won't have the time to really succeed, but you know, it would be fun while it lasted.



    Did you "work" for this notoriety or buy your way to it? This is how P2W can effect PvE.
    Cryomatrix

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,673
    It doesn't bother me....I know PVPers hate it but I mostly play PVE and I don't care how quickly other level with XP potions or whatever else they sell in the shop....THose items are never a temptation for me.
    AlBQuirky
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,413
    edited October 2019
    Krimzin said:
    P2W is not traditionally huge advantages.. typically they are small QoL things. People who have the biggest issue are people who are broke... Someone who has disposable income, its not that big a deal.

    That could certainly apply to someone who is broke, but it's not exclusively attributed to them.
    It doesn't matter how much money I might have at any given time, If I have the choice of spending $1000 dollars on advantages in a P2W game or spend said $1000 buying several games (and even one or two other platforms) my choice is very clearly the latter.

    It's not really about how much/little money I have, it's more about how much value can i get for that money.
    acidbloodAlBQuirky




  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,858
    It bothers me more that many just don't get it,it is not like you need a rocket scientist degree to figure it out,geesh you don't even need a basket weaving course to figure it out.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 877
    It bothers me only so far as P2W (and other excessively monetised) games are worse than they otherwise could have been.

    And I've got no issue with spending money on a game that I enjoy, but I want value for that money... i.e. there is no way in hell I am rewarding developers / publishers for putting (for example) an XP booster in the store instead of a simple option (or cheat code) in the game.

    As for the time vs. money argument:
    1. You do realise these games are actively made more grindy in an effort to drive players to the cash shop (If they truly 'respected your time' they would have included options / cheat codes).
    2. Where does it end? How much do you have to spend (and continue to spend) for the game to be enjoyable? An extra $100? An extra $1,000? An extra $10,000?
    3. If you aren't enjoying the game as is, then why are you playing it?
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,962
    Wizardry said:
    It bothers me more that many just don't get it,it is not like you need a rocket scientist degree to figure it out,geesh you don't even need a basket weaving course to figure it out.

    Perhaps a basket weaving course would have taught you to put a space after a comma.

    Also, this thread refutes your point because responses are varied and nuanced. There are several different reasons why it bothers other people.
    AlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 158
    Which do you prefer:
    Everyone is charged 15 bucks a month and gets the same Ford Mustang that they can upgrade through completing challenges.

    Or....
    Its free no subscription and everyone gets a Ford fiesta. Spend 10 bucks and you can put a spoiler on the fiesta. Spend a thousand and you can upgrade it to the mustang. Spend 10 thousand and you can add warp drive to the mustang.
    AlBQuirkyjimmywolf

    Mend and Defend

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    P2W only really bothers me in the type of people in brings in to play the game... much the way power gamers bother me. They don't play to enjoy the game and all that went into it, and often get in the way of those who are. They play to get everything as fast as possible, WTFPWN, then leave and try to ebay the account only to come onto these boards and complain that the game sucks.

    I also don't like the idea of having to buy stuff that isn't obtainable in the game any other way.

    In terms of P2W to speed things along, it doesn't bother me. Many people don't have 4 hours a day to grind mobs for loot and gold. If they can buy gold to get what they need, more power to them.

    I had three accounts in DAoC. I could powerlevel myself or friends, make my own gold farming groups, provide my group with all available buffs in RvR, etc.  Is that considered P2W? Many would say no, but if I took that extra $30 a month in subscription money and bought the gold, people would cry.
    AlBQuirky
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,271
    WarWitch said:
    It doesn't bother me at all.  I do spend some on the games I really like gw2 and spaceborne just to support their costs. But really if you let your fun be determined by others I feel for you. I drive a Lil honda civic. I don't mind if my friends get a Vett etc at all. I still get their :).
    Since when are GW2 P2W?
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,204
    edited October 2019
    Krimzin said:
    P2W is not traditionally huge advantages.. typically they are small QoL things. People who have the biggest issue are people who are broke... Someone who has disposable income, its not that big a deal.

    Cash shops usually sell things like larger backpacks, heal potions, XP bonuses, etc. 
    That's a pretty big advantage over time because these things allow players to push the limits more.
    So over a week, one player can't push their limits of play, another can do so for an hour, another for 5 hours, another for 40 hours a week, and so on. 
    That's a huge advantage being bought by those with the money and the will. And a huge disadvantage for those who can't afford to keep up with the Joneses. 

    And it gets much worse when you consider the top spenders grouping up for the top rewards in the game. 

    It does matter, a lot. 
    AlBQuirkyimmoralthang

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,253
    WarWitch said:
    It doesn't bother me at all.  I do spend some on the games I really like gw2 and spaceborne just to support their costs. But really if you let your fun be determined by others I feel for you. I drive a Lil honda civic. I don't mind if my friends get a Vett etc at all. I still get their :).
    In multiplayer games, it is ALL about playing with others. Maybe not directly 100% of the time, but I've never been sniped then tea-bagged in any single player game. I've never lost out on a resource I was heading for, either.

    Good, average, or bad player interactions are what set "multiplayer games" apart from single player games, right? If you solve a problem by logging off (avoidance), then you're effected ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,124
    edited October 2019
    Not so much Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 Enjoy.

    So many games based around this, Arche Age for example but Trion ruined it so bad I couldn't have even stayed on the game for a year or longer without having several premium accounts and buying stuff from the cash shop.
    AlBQuirkyjimmywolf
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,309
    Hatefull said:
    Games work best when it is a level playing field.

    Monopoly, for example, it is essential that all start on an even footing and either progress or regress from there. If one player starts with more cash than the others he/she is more likely to win.


    So I guess it used to bother me, but hasn't for quite a few years now.
    Right in terms of playing monopoly, a person who plays 16 hours a day compared to a person with a job, can have 10 dice rolls first before the other person gets a dice roll. 

    See how that works? 


    Yeah, I do see how that works, you set up a point that has nothing to do with what I said and throw in a sorry ass excuse about having a job.

    I was in the Marines when I started gaming and I work full time now, I managed to still enjoy games even when I could not play for a year(s) because I was deployed. This bullshit about "having a job" thousands of gamers have jobs and still enjoy gaming. On one hand, I am proud of you earning your way, on the other, quit crying and deal with it. Does not playing all day slow progression? Sure it does, does it matter? It sure does not.

    See how that works?

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • WarWitchWarWitch Member UncommonPosts: 314
    Gw2 is not pay to win to me at all. I was just saying I support the games I play.



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,359
    edited October 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money.
    But the money part is NOT equal. Your time = money is not the same as my time = money.

    For me it is all about choices. Time is finite. Everyone gets 24 hours each day. No more, no less. What everyone chooses to do with those hours is all on those making the choice. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our salary. That is where the inequality lies.

    People chose to get married, to have children. People choose to work 80 hours a week jobs. People choose Netflix or playing sports over gaming.

    When all is said and done, we all have the same 24 hours each and every day ;)
    One of the greater logic failures, few of us really get to choose what we do with our lives, most decisions are done more of necessity, based on decisions long past, and often outside of our control than anything else.

    It is often descibed as destiny, Divine province or sometimes, shit luck.

    In the present we basically react to everything which came before to determine the outcome today and influence our futures.

    We don't even all get the same amount of time,  some live to 100, some get snuffed at 38 (age my best friend died on his bedroom floor from an unexpected massive heart attack while his family was away on vacation)....and no one knows the time or the season. 

    ;)


    PhaserlightAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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