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Why does P2W bother you so much?

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Comments

  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,208
    I only play F2P games for free so I see the free portion as the entire experience. I therefore judge it as good or bad based on what is available, not what they offer behind the paywall. Worked out great so far. 
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,958
    Jeebus...talk about answering your own question in the first sentence, then contradicting yourself immediately.

    How can you not have a problem with P2W, when you have a problem with P2W leading to bad game design, leading to bad games?
    It is called nuanced thinking.

    P2W bothers me a little bit but it is not because of the money aspect, it is because of shitty design, but with so many games to choose from, there are still many games to play.

    Hence, "doesnt bother me that much" because the reason i dont play, is shitty game design which prevents me from playing the games so i never really suffer from p2w hence doesnt bother me much.

    Kind of like i am afraid of the ocean because of sharks, but i never worry about being attacked by a shark . . .  Because i dont go in the ocean as there are many other alternatives for fun..

    I dont like games with p2w because of the shitty game design, but p2w itself wouldnt bother me that much, cuz i tend not to play shallow shitty games (asian grinders, cell phone games) when there are tons of alternatives. 

    See how nuanced thinking works?
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,410
    edited October 2019
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:

    However, what of the people who do play games 16 hours a day? There is an inequality to that as well. But for some reason people don't seem too miffed by it.
    There are a lot of reasons not to be bothered about the time element.

    First, it is rare that a game actually rewards you for time spent. You may spend 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 50 hours to hit cap and get the best gear, then 950 of your hours mean nothing in terms of gaining a tangible advantage over me.

    Second, games are easy! Again, you may have spent 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 100 hours to master it then your extra time is meaningless and won't affect the outcome.

    Third, intelligence and prior experience have a much greater effect than time spent in game and we cannot change that. For example, it took me no time at all to "master" SWTOR because it was so shallow and derivative, we'd hit cap and cleared all raids within 4 weeks of launch. Yet, when I quit the game a year later there were still players in my guild who'd been playing every day who were still utter garbage.



    The only time that time spent really gives you an advantage is when there is a time-limit on limited resources (e.g. land grabs in AA), in which case the extra time spent in game helps you get access before others. The other occasion is when the game is built entirely around muscle memory, in which case the more time you play, the better your muscle memory. Even then, I'm fairly certain that muscle memory has a "cap" that you can't improve beyond so time-limited players can still eventually get there.
    Let's call it game dependant. 

    Players who play a lot in a pvp game usually have a significant advantage over people who only play 2 hours every now and then. Happened in Lineage 2, happened in Aion.


    That's apples and oranges. P2W is it's own meta-game cash shop thing and it's just plain bad for the integrity of playing the game to compete in the game.

    Yes, playing more than others gives you a competitive advantage but that is actually part of playing any game.

    Practicing an instrument many hours per day will give you a much better chance of eventually playing at Carnegie Hall than just dabbling a few hours a week. Giving a donation of $20 million to The City of New York so your idiot son gets to play there despite being a hack would be the P2W equivalent.
    KyleranAzaron_NightbladeAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    P2W impacts game design.  Games are set up to bilk you for money to advance by making obstacles incredibly tedious (not fun) to access additional content that is fun.  The best (read sneakiest) ones have a more gradual gradient to lure you into commitment.  A great example of this practice is inventory (bag space).  You acquire a lot of loot by game design to make you want to buy more bags from the cash shop.  Early on in the game this is managed by the amount of loot you acquire that you need to use (for crafting, enhancements, etc) is low.  As you progress and get more invested, the requirements become greater and varied.  This puts pressure on the amount of inventory space you have to make the purchasing side to alleviate this issue more attractive.
    KyleranCryomatrixAlBQuirky
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 1,948
    edited October 2019
    If p2w didn't exist in some games then the black market demand would be too much for certain games to handle which is a fact that is usually left out of the conversation when discussing p2w.

    There will always be people who are willing to pay a lot to bypass the system so it's just a matter of who you'd rather have that money go to. Items in UO back in 90's-2000'ish were already being sold for hundreds of dollars on ebay in case people don't remember.

    It sounds strange to say but having p2w in some games is actually doing a service for the customer cause they won't get scammed by third party shady business.
    CryomatrixDaranarKyleranAlBQuirky
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430
    I'm personally not really bothered by it that much.
    Oh ?

    Well ...

    ... good for you, I guess/hope ?!?
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    What i hate about P2W is the life span of services . When a game go P2W , the life quality drop down and the game become a empty shell very fast .

    I expect a game that i can play for a lease 5 year but with P2W , normally only last for a year or 2
    moving home is suck , you have to start again from zero .
    AlBQuirky
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    edited October 2019
    I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to play a game the exact same way.  It doesn't work that way in gaming or in real life.  People are different with different life experiences and different notions of fun *and fairness. 
    AlBQuirky

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,308
    edited October 2019
    Had this conversation before with Cyromatrix, as long as you are not spending too much money, don't get addicted.

    For the rest of use for whom this is a matter of principle a fair playing field is the only way to play.
    AlBQuirky

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  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 386
    P2W bothers me because these MMORPGs were some amazing virtual worlds that we escaped to in order to cast spells, adventure through dungeons and far off lands, group up with new and old friends and conquer dragons and such.  They were a virtual world separate from our real world.  

    Then they were whored out.  P2W/Cash Shops are an unwelcomed bridge between the Virtual World and the Real World.  My real life wealth/status should not effect the abilities of my Dwarven Cleric, or my Republic Commando.  Nor should someone's poor financial responsibilities because let's admit it.  We all know people who have credit card debt from cash shops.

    Imagine sitting down to a game of D&D and the DM saying, OK what's your Net Worth?  $1 Mil, then take 5 dice and roll for extra power.  Your worth $250k?  Ok here are 2 dice for a chance at starting with the most powerful sword in the game.  Oh you are a janitor?  Well here are some cloth slippers and a ragged shirt, have fun and try to keep up unless you are interesting in wracking up that debt.  Imagine the difference in choices between the players.  The top player doesn't have to make choices, they can blow through everything with their limitless revive potions.  

    Now imagine if D&D was a competitve PVP game.... It would kinda be like Vegas, without the magic of adventure, dragons, challenge, conquest.  It would just be another extension of the real world, thus losing it's magic.

    At some point a virtual world stops being a virtual  world when it has too many ties to the real world.  Cash does that sort of thing.
    pantaroPhaserlightCryomatrixSensaiAlBQuirkyVermillion_Raventhal

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 386
    BruceYee said:
    If p2w didn't exist in some games then the black market demand would be too much for certain games to handle which is a fact that is usually left out of the conversation when discussing p2w.

    There will always be people who are willing to pay a lot to bypass the system so it's just a matter of who you'd rather have that money go to. Items in UO back in 90's-2000'ish were already being sold for hundreds of dollars on ebay in case people don't remember.

    It sounds strange to say but having p2w in some games is actually doing a service for the customer cause they won't get scammed by third party shady business.

    No.  That's like saying well people deal meth on the black market and some people will always shell out for it.  So if you just make meth legal, stop telling kids not to do it, and start selling it in Toys R Us then you would be doing the meth heads a service.

    There were rules against selling items and accounts on eBay, at least in EQ.  There isn't much reason to protect people from getting scammed if they are bypassing those rules and dealing with shady third party businesses instead of playing the game the right way.  What you gonna start BBB for drug dealers to protect the meth heads getting scammed? 

    Just because something always existed in a limited fashion doesn't make it even half way OK to accept it, condone it and promote it.

    Sorry for my extreme comparison, but the argument, 'well if people are gonna do it anyway you might as well institutionalize and promote it' is just idiotic at best.  The merit of it all matters, not just the fact that it happens.
    AlBQuirky

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    Amathe said:
    It's tautological more than it is something that can be explained. 

    If I want the Sword of Doom I have to spend 100 hours of my time doing in game tasks.

    If Lord Fauntleroy wants the Sword of Doom, he just pays $250.00 and there it is.

    If the inequity of that is not apparent to you, nothing I say will persuade you.


     


    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money. 

    Overall, you could play the game for 60 hours and work an extra 40 hours over a month even at minimum wage and max taxes taken out, you'd get $350 for that which you'd be able to buy your sword. 

    onto another topic. yes if a game is PvP centric, then P2W would be a serious problem. Then again, i don't play an MMO for PvP . . . better to play Starcraft 1v1 on ladder where no luck is involved. 
    No.

    Time does not equal money on a physical or economic level.  We don't live in a 3D + money spacetime.  Neither does everyone have the privilege of easily converting time into money. Nobody has the privilege of converting money into time: it ticks at the same rate for everyone here on Earth and all the money in the world can't buy you one second of it (as somebody famously once said).

    Time is a great equalizer, money is the source of some of the greatest inequalities in society today. 
    DaranarAlBQuirky

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304
    Games work best when it is a level playing field.

    Monopoly, for example, it is essential that all start on an even footing and either progress or regress from there. If one player starts with more cash than the others he/she is more likely to win.

    I think a lot of people look at it like that. I am a competitive person, I always have been so in order to really enjoy games I had to stop caring about the win, and just focus on my personal growth.  Yeah I lost, but what did I do wrong...what did I do right? Once I was just worried about me, a few things happened. 1. I stopped caring how much others paid to cruise through the game. 2. I became a better player. 3. I stopped grouping as much with strangers and stick to my friends that are of the same mindset as me. So I got to stop listing to the basement dwellers, chatty Cathys, dick and fart jokes or whatever else idiots are into today and just focused on enjoying the game. 

    So I guess it used to bother me, but hasn't for quite a few years now.
    AlBQuirky

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,930
    If its PvE, I dont care. They arent really winning anything, imo. If its PvP, I don’t care. They arent really winning anything, imo. I dont pvp in games that arent on an even playing field though.
    Octagon7711AlBQuirky

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,271
    P2W is like watching a rigged boxing match, how fun is that?
    Slapshot1188PhaserlightAlBQuirky
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,707
    The difference in game and content design between free to play and subscription is like day and night. So completely different and so completely unappealing to me. I'd take a mediocre subscription game over a well made free to play game every single time.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 252
    It doesn't bother me one bit because I play how I want.

    I played League of Legends for 2 years and never spent a single penny on the game. I had fun, the value was incredible.

    I've played Everquest for nearly 20 years and spent various sums in the shop because there was something there I wanted that had nothing to do with improving my character.

    Value is subjective.
    AlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,609
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:

    However, what of the people who do play games 16 hours a day? There is an inequality to that as well. But for some reason people don't seem too miffed by it.
    There are a lot of reasons not to be bothered about the time element.

    First, it is rare that a game actually rewards you for time spent. You may spend 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 50 hours to hit cap and get the best gear, then 950 of your hours mean nothing in terms of gaining a tangible advantage over me.

    Second, games are easy! Again, you may have spent 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 100 hours to master it then your extra time is meaningless and won't affect the outcome.

    Third, intelligence and prior experience have a much greater effect than time spent in game and we cannot change that. For example, it took me no time at all to "master" SWTOR because it was so shallow and derivative, we'd hit cap and cleared all raids within 4 weeks of launch. Yet, when I quit the game a year later there were still players in my guild who'd been playing every day who were still utter garbage.



    The only time that time spent really gives you an advantage is when there is a time-limit on limited resources (e.g. land grabs in AA), in which case the extra time spent in game helps you get access before others. The other occasion is when the game is built entirely around muscle memory, in which case the more time you play, the better your muscle memory. Even then, I'm fairly certain that muscle memory has a "cap" that you can't improve beyond so time-limited players can still eventually get there.
    Let's call it game dependant. 

    Players who play a lot in a pvp game usually have a significant advantage over people who only play 2 hours every now and then. Happened in Lineage 2, happened in Aion.


    That's apples and oranges. P2W is it's own meta-game cash shop thing and it's just plain bad for the integrity of playing the game to compete in the game.

    Yes, playing more than others gives you a competitive advantage but that is actually part of playing any game.

    Practicing an instrument many hours per day will give you a much better chance of eventually playing at Carnegie Hall than just dabbling a few hours a week. Giving a donation of $20 million to The City of New York so your idiot son gets to play there despite being a hack would be the P2W equivalent.
    All true but there are people who can literally spend 16 hours per day playing. It then becomes a game where people who have devoted their lives to playing video games trump most other people (again, in a pvp game) and then what's the point?

    I'm not for pay to win in any game but there are just inequalities playing these games, especially if they are competitive.

    Additionally, even if a game offers "pay to win" there's nothing to stop the people playing 16 hours per day from also taking advantage of that (and I'm sure they do) so the paying to be competitive goes out the window when added with time spent.

    Of course, some people would say "make it completely skill based." I'd be more for that. However, there are going to be the elite few who then steam roll over everyone else. Not a bad thing but I can see that keeping people with more average abilities away.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,353
    I dislike P2W somewhat because even were I to try and buy my way to the top I still would not win.  :# 

    Face it, the top 51% of players win more than those in the bottom 49%, increasingly more so as one gets closer to the top.

    I've always been at a disadvantage and far from the top for a number of factors including age, lack of available free time, no interest in spending a lot of time learning to "git gud", mid-level hardware, no macroing etc.

    I just go out and play the best that I am able so really P2W, whatever the term really means doesn't bother me much.

    I will agree though I dislike the influence certain monetization models have on over all game design, and that includes building in a whole lot of near unending "grind" (see L2 back in the day) just to keep me playing and paying a monthly sub.

    CryomatrixAlBQuirkyPalebane

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,353
    AAAMEOW said:
    It bothers me because I've rather spend 15$ per month instead of 100$ per month.
    Well sure, most of us would rather pay less but it is not always in the game developer's best interest to cater to such desires.

    Might not even be in the players best interest if $15 a month per customer isn't enough to keep the game afloat or encourage those willing to invest $200M plus in future MMORPG development to do so.
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,410
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:

    However, what of the people who do play games 16 hours a day? There is an inequality to that as well. But for some reason people don't seem too miffed by it.
    There are a lot of reasons not to be bothered about the time element.

    First, it is rare that a game actually rewards you for time spent. You may spend 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 50 hours to hit cap and get the best gear, then 950 of your hours mean nothing in terms of gaining a tangible advantage over me.

    Second, games are easy! Again, you may have spent 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 100 hours to master it then your extra time is meaningless and won't affect the outcome.

    Third, intelligence and prior experience have a much greater effect than time spent in game and we cannot change that. For example, it took me no time at all to "master" SWTOR because it was so shallow and derivative, we'd hit cap and cleared all raids within 4 weeks of launch. Yet, when I quit the game a year later there were still players in my guild who'd been playing every day who were still utter garbage.



    The only time that time spent really gives you an advantage is when there is a time-limit on limited resources (e.g. land grabs in AA), in which case the extra time spent in game helps you get access before others. The other occasion is when the game is built entirely around muscle memory, in which case the more time you play, the better your muscle memory. Even then, I'm fairly certain that muscle memory has a "cap" that you can't improve beyond so time-limited players can still eventually get there.
    Let's call it game dependant. 

    Players who play a lot in a pvp game usually have a significant advantage over people who only play 2 hours every now and then. Happened in Lineage 2, happened in Aion.


    That's apples and oranges. P2W is it's own meta-game cash shop thing and it's just plain bad for the integrity of playing the game to compete in the game.

    Yes, playing more than others gives you a competitive advantage but that is actually part of playing any game.

    Practicing an instrument many hours per day will give you a much better chance of eventually playing at Carnegie Hall than just dabbling a few hours a week. Giving a donation of $20 million to The City of New York so your idiot son gets to play there despite being a hack would be the P2W equivalent.
    All true but there are people who can literally spend 16 hours per day playing. It then becomes a game where people who have devoted their lives to playing video games trump most other people (again, in a pvp game) and then what's the point?

    I'm not for pay to win in any game but there are just inequalities playing these games, especially if they are competitive.

    Additionally, even if a game offers "pay to win" there's nothing to stop the people playing 16 hours per day from also taking advantage of that (and I'm sure they do) so the paying to be competitive goes out the window when added with time spent.

    Of course, some people would say "make it completely skill based." I'd be more for that. However, there are going to be the elite few who then steam roll over everyone else. Not a bad thing but I can see that keeping people with more average abilities away.


    Don't compete against them. I don't.

    Look at this way: some people play Overwatch professionally and most play it for fun more casually. It would be silly to think that a casual should have a way to compete against the pros  from the e-sports league.

    The only difference in MMORPGs is that there is no professional e-sports league for those. But the 16 hour a day players you imagine are the equivalent to the OW pros. It would be equally silly to think that you should be able to compete against them.

    But like I said, that's something totally different from P2W which as you rightly state, the no lifers can also buy.

    Any way you slice it P2W from its original eBay form 20 years ago to the company store version we have today is a different meta gaming thing altogether.
    SovrathAlBQuirkyPalebane
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,353
    edited October 2019
    P2W impacts game design.  Games are set up to bilk you for money to advance by making obstacles incredibly tedious (not fun) to access additional content that is fun.  The best (read sneakiest) ones have a more gradual gradient to lure you into commitment.  A great example of this practice is inventory (bag space).  You acquire a lot of loot by game design to make you want to buy more bags from the cash shop.  Early on in the game this is managed by the amount of loot you acquire that you need to use (for crafting, enhancements, etc) is low.  As you progress and get more invested, the requirements become greater and varied.  This puts pressure on the amount of inventory space you have to make the purchasing side to alleviate this issue more attractive.
    Generally I don't object to paying for additional inventory space being as I'm a big time horder and understand the "costs" of storing and accessing large volumes of items (aka data) in a DB.

    However I agree the design you've described is predatory in nature and I generally would avoid games that take it to such levels. 

    POE tread dangerously close to my tolerance level in this regard however I reached what I felt was an acceptable level of space / organization without spending more than I would consider fair, especially considering they provide the full base game totally free.

    Also Grinding Gears "sells" you account wide space and filter tabs, which is great as I absolutely loath being "rented" more storage as some asian made games tended to do back in the day.

    Finally at the end of the day it's pretty difficult to call buying more inventory space "P2W" in any reasonable argument.
    AmatheCryomatrixAlBQuirkyPalebane

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,184
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:

    However, what of the people who do play games 16 hours a day? There is an inequality to that as well. But for some reason people don't seem too miffed by it.
    There are a lot of reasons not to be bothered about the time element.

    First, it is rare that a game actually rewards you for time spent. You may spend 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 50 hours to hit cap and get the best gear, then 950 of your hours mean nothing in terms of gaining a tangible advantage over me.

    Second, games are easy! Again, you may have spent 1000 hours in the game, but if it only takes 100 hours to master it then your extra time is meaningless and won't affect the outcome.

    Third, intelligence and prior experience have a much greater effect than time spent in game and we cannot change that. For example, it took me no time at all to "master" SWTOR because it was so shallow and derivative, we'd hit cap and cleared all raids within 4 weeks of launch. Yet, when I quit the game a year later there were still players in my guild who'd been playing every day who were still utter garbage.



    The only time that time spent really gives you an advantage is when there is a time-limit on limited resources (e.g. land grabs in AA), in which case the extra time spent in game helps you get access before others. The other occasion is when the game is built entirely around muscle memory, in which case the more time you play, the better your muscle memory. Even then, I'm fairly certain that muscle memory has a "cap" that you can't improve beyond so time-limited players can still eventually get there.
    Let's call it game dependant. 

    Players who play a lot in a pvp game usually have a significant advantage over people who only play 2 hours every now and then. Happened in Lineage 2, happened in Aion.


    That's apples and oranges. P2W is it's own meta-game cash shop thing and it's just plain bad for the integrity of playing the game to compete in the game.

    Yes, playing more than others gives you a competitive advantage but that is actually part of playing any game.

    Practicing an instrument many hours per day will give you a much better chance of eventually playing at Carnegie Hall than just dabbling a few hours a week. Giving a donation of $20 million to The City of New York so your idiot son gets to play there despite being a hack would be the P2W equivalent.
    All true but there are people who can literally spend 16 hours per day playing. It then becomes a game where people who have devoted their lives to playing video games trump most other people (again, in a pvp game) and then what's the point?

    I'm not for pay to win in any game but there are just inequalities playing these games, especially if they are competitive.

    Additionally, even if a game offers "pay to win" there's nothing to stop the people playing 16 hours per day from also taking advantage of that (and I'm sure they do) so the paying to be competitive goes out the window when added with time spent.

    Of course, some people would say "make it completely skill based." I'd be more for that. However, there are going to be the elite few who then steam roll over everyone else. Not a bad thing but I can see that keeping people with more average abilities away.


    Again... one is in-game (playing a bunch) and one is not in-game (buying your advantages).  To me, that makes all the difference in the world.  

    A PvE game where there is no conflict or competition between players I could not care less about.  No more than I care if someone edits their character in a single player RPG (just cheating themselves). But in a game where there is player conflict or competition, it's just wrong to purchase advantages from outside the game, just like it would be wrong to hack and edit character stats.
    MaurgrimKyleranAlBQuirky

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

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  • immoralthangimmoralthang Member UncommonPosts: 271
    The worst example of P2W I've ever experienced was vanilla Diablo 3. This was a game based on loot but the drop rates were lowered so you felt forced to spend up to $250 per item on the real money auction house.






    ScotKyleranAlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,377
    Amathe said:

    Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money. 

    Overall, you could play the game for 60 hours and work an extra 40 hours over a month even at minimum wage and max taxes taken out, you'd get $350 for that which you'd be able to buy your sword. 

    onto another topic. yes if a game is PvP centric, then P2W would be a serious problem. Then again, i don't play an MMO for PvP . . . better to play Starcraft 1v1 on ladder where no luck is involved. 
    It's not the same for everyone.

    One player might make $250.00 in an hour or less. For another person that may be 4 days work (and zero ability to buy electric swords online because that is his rent money).

    I get that you can say well, one hour guy earned his money fair and square. Good for him. 

    But do we really want to import all the wage and net worth disparities in real life into a game?

    What if we played chess and, because I am rich (not really), I buy an extra queen for $1,000?

    Or what if we go to the theatre together and I say Cryomatrix, I will meet you back here after. I bought the best seats for me and my wife. I hear they have openings up in the nosebleed section for you and your spouse.

    There is enough of that in real life. i don't want to play that world in a simulation.
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