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In your opinion what are some common Bad Game Design decisions that tend to get overlooked in MMOs?

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  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    edited October 2019
    Expansions that make older zones irrelevant. Maybe build on existing zones so they feed into the new ones. No one likes logging into a ghost town.

    A flat loot system where everyone is wearing the same set throughout the game, especially the endgame. I don't want to be exactly like every other warrior or wizard in the game because there's only one real option if you don't want to suck.

    A flat loot system where either crafted items or drop items are pointless because the other is always going to be better. They should work together like a puzzle that gives the stats and bonuses that augment your playstyle the best.

    All factions that are identical. Yes, they are our foreign enemies but they are exactly the same as us... but we hate them anyways.

    Whole skill lines that go unused because they literally suck in comparison to other skill lines.

    Nowhere to go once you hit capped level. As expansions come out, they should add augmenting secondary, tertiary, etc  skill lines that continue to makes your character a little better without destroying the class or making it stupid OPd.

    Meaningless PvP or not PvP. Timed/instanced battlegrounds are meaningless. Killing because your a ganking asshole is meaningless.
    AlBQuirky
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,118
    Nyctelios said:
    I think EVE has the best mash up of PvE and PvP. 

    There are relatively safe zones . . . and there are places with no safe zones and so if you want safety you can have it, if you want danger and more rewards you can have it. 


    If you want safety go to null sec and if you want danger start a new account and leave your high sec station. Yes, I agree.
    how is that different from Flagging system used in many MMOs. 

    Want to play it safe, stay unflagged. What to do the same zones but with risk, Flag Up to be attacked.


    Unlike what you describe, map content isnt gated by a this or that. both types of players can still play together and on the same content. Rather have a full game rather than half and half a game

    image

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,310
    Nyctelios said:
    I think EVE has the best mash up of PvE and PvP. 

    There are relatively safe zones . . . and there are places with no safe zones and so if you want safety you can have it, if you want danger and more rewards you can have it. 


    If you want safety go to null sec and if you want danger start a new account and leave your high sec station. Yes, I agree.
    how is that different from Flagging system used in many MMOs. 

    Want to play it safe, stay unflagged. What to do the same zones but with risk, Flag Up to be attacked.


    Unlike what you describe, map content isnt gated by a this or that. both types of players can still play together and on the same content. Rather have a full game rather than half and half a game
    I am a big fan of the flagging system, it solves so many issues. with PvP/Pve living together.
    AlBQuirky

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,964
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    [Deleted User]
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 332
    action combat
    drastic power levels
    questing
    minimap and map markers
    AlBQuirky
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,997
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    Problem with flagging is it can be exploited. Every flagging system has been exploited in some way.

    The only system I've seen work well is the Lineage Lawful/PK where fighting back removes the PK flag from the fight. It doesn't try and pretend to be a PvE only game. It's a PvPvE game where you don't have to fight, but you can't stop one either. Running is an option. Standing there and ignoring it is not.

    PvP MMOs that try and pretend they aren't one if you "flag" just don't work for me. It fractures an otherwise unified server community in ways that don't comfortably overlap.
    AlBQuirky
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,118
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    I disagree. Running around flagged is risk enough since you can be attacked even if you minding your business. That's a risk. 
    Hatefullbcbully

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,118
    Torval said:
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    Problem with flagging is it can be exploited. Every flagging system has been exploited in some way.

    The only system I've seen work well is the Lineage Lawful/PK where fighting back removes the PK flag from the fight. It doesn't try and pretend to be a PvE only game. It's a PvPvE game where you don't have to fight, but you can't stop one either. Running is an option. Standing there and ignoring it is not.

    PvP MMOs that try and pretend they aren't one if you "flag" just don't work for me. It fractures an otherwise unified server community in ways that don't comfortably overlap.
    I disagree. Flagging system allow pvp players and pve players to still play together on the same maps instead of having dedicated maps and resources to go to that for a few handful of pvp only maps. 
    I am playing Archeage Unchained and the way PvP is in that gane is straight up garbage. Normally it's not a fair fight and just ganking simulator of low levels. I rather have the option to opt out of that mess while leveling up especially when my Faction don't have adequate population in the map to help counter enemy gankers. 
    Hatefull

    image

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 571
    edited October 2019
    This thread has more to do with what kind of games each of us enjoy to play more than it does design. Even for designers it frequently boils down to that as well. They may try to dress it up more with scientifikism, but in all truth they're just wanting the outside world to confirm their legitimacy.

    If i had to pick one thing that I think is bad game design in the modern MMORPG industry, I'd say not specifically targetting your audience well enough. Being too broad. Maybe publishers or investors want to be broad, but I think in the modern gaming industry, there's just sooooo much entrenchment and so many options, it's darn stupid to be broad. Entrenched players just want to play what they always have. They won't admit that because they starve for something new, but they almost always end up playing what htey always have or playing something almost exactly like it. And of course therer'e soooooo mahy games to play now, especially if you're ok with playing an amateur or old or emulated game, new games better offer something nearly impossible to find anywhere else in the multitutdes of games, and yet that's not exactly easy to do. Graphics are easy to beat, and maybe the first choice, but they won't make a game stand out enough. So the end result of all this, is you have to make yoru game or MMO specifcially for a particular audience and you have to know them really well. You have to design your product so it fits them like a glove. Smooth and easy. No discomfort. You make htem feel like they're leaving the sinking titanic. They're not irritated or hesitating. They're joyous. if you fail at this, you will be bitten by mediocrity. You will fail somewhere. Mayube by a thousand cuts.

    REally, we're all different and want to paly different things. Generally, games for different players are going to be made differently. Sure, there're some commonalities. Loops in differnt peices of code and in diffferent languages have strong remsemblances. And most players tend to share about the same tolerance for the ability to go without reward. However, they get rewards from different things. What's not a reward at all for one player can be a reward for another, meaning one player loses the will to play while anther is still happily smacking moles. The designer might not have intended it that way, or to that extreme. So anyway, I'm done. Different design principles and different games for different players. Period. End of story. Shouldn't have to say anbyting more unless you're not intending to be truthful. Sadly, it's normal to twist things around. Even science, our most powerful institution, isn't immune to human nature.

    I did say don't make an MMORPG for everyone. It's a mistake. It's a no no. HOWEVER, sometimes there exist different kinds of hybrid MMORPG players and if you understand them well enough then ti's perfectly possible to craft an MMORPG specifically for them. SPECIFICALLY. They might like to do everytihng, or maybe they like to combine genres. So in their case, it might be ok to mix things you normally would avoid.

    And yes, WoW was and is for a specific audience. It's not for everyone. It's not and never was the holy grail of MMORPGs. Each and every MMORPG, whether it's intended or not, has its own unique assembly that caters to a specific group of players. The players do not need to be aware of it, neither does anybody else. Evenb the smallest most despairingly despicable MMORPG is something special to someone.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    AlBQuirky
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,215
    Torval said:
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    Problem with flagging is it can be exploited. Every flagging system has been exploited in some way.

    The only system I've seen work well is the Lineage Lawful/PK where fighting back removes the PK flag from the fight. It doesn't try and pretend to be a PvE only game. It's a PvPvE game where you don't have to fight, but you can't stop one either. Running is an option. Standing there and ignoring it is not.

    PvP MMOs that try and pretend they aren't one if you "flag" just don't work for me. It fractures an otherwise unified server community in ways that don't comfortably overlap.
    I disagree. Flagging system allow pvp players and pve players to still play together on the same maps instead of having dedicated maps and resources to go to that for a few handful of pvp only maps. 
    I am playing Archeage Unchained and the way PvP is in that gane is straight up garbage. Normally it's not a fair fight and just ganking simulator of low levels. I rather have the option to opt out of that mess while leveling up especially when my Faction don't have adequate population in the map to help counter enemy gankers. 
    Wushu did flagging the best. It’s a ffa PvP world. You’re flag was more like a safety on a gun. Unflagged (safety on) you could not attack. Flagged you could attack anyone.

    The flagging system did not protect you from being attack at all. Other systems like bounty hunters, jail, and prison did.
    TorvalAlBQuirky
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,964
    Sovrath said:
    "new player areas" that aren't relevant once you leave them.

    I find the whole magic ring, necklace "earring" method of applying more stats ridiculous.

    So, every person in the land wears earrings and necklaces and rings?


    If they made you survive better than everyone would. Hell, if i lived in a fantasy game world and i could get stats on a nipple ring and tongue ring, id do it. 
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,190
    I'd like to add a second bad design element that i can't stand: Catch up mechanics

    Back in my day catch up mechanics were called guilds and friends. That's the way it was and we liked it!
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,118
    Alders said:
    I'd like to add a second bad design element that i can't stand: Catch up mechanics

    Back in my day catch up mechanics were called guilds and friends. That's the way it was and we liked it!
    so whats an example of a catch up mechanics?

    image

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    Alders said:
    I'd like to add a second bad design element that i can't stand: Catch up mechanics

    Back in my day catch up mechanics were called guilds and friends. That's the way it was and we liked it!
    so whats an example of a catch up mechanics?
    I think most troblesome catch up mechanic is easy to get gears , it kind of ruined the economic of game by add strong gears that have nothing to do with original design mechanics
  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,372
    Can't walk up a two foot tall pile of dirt because it is the edge of the zone.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,310
    Torval said:
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    Problem with flagging is it can be exploited. Every flagging system has been exploited in some way.

    The only system I've seen work well is the Lineage Lawful/PK where fighting back removes the PK flag from the fight. It doesn't try and pretend to be a PvE only game. It's a PvPvE game where you don't have to fight, but you can't stop one either. Running is an option. Standing there and ignoring it is not.

    PvP MMOs that try and pretend they aren't one if you "flag" just don't work for me. It fractures an otherwise unified server community in ways that don't comfortably overlap.
    I played L2, lol that system does nothing to prevent PK's, you are correct, it does not pretend to be a PvE game at all.

    Anyway, I guess I am ignorant, so please explain to me how the flagging system in SWG was exploited? Because I have been under the impression that it was one of the few things that worked very well and I was not aware of any exploits.

    Flagging work better than the L2 auto flag system, imo. Having played both, extensively.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,261
    Hatefull said:
    Torval said:
    The problem with flagging is that if you want risk vs reward, one way to do it is to not allow flagging in certain areas and everything is PvP
    Problem with flagging is it can be exploited. Every flagging system has been exploited in some way.

    The only system I've seen work well is the Lineage Lawful/PK where fighting back removes the PK flag from the fight. It doesn't try and pretend to be a PvE only game. It's a PvPvE game where you don't have to fight, but you can't stop one either. Running is an option. Standing there and ignoring it is not.

    PvP MMOs that try and pretend they aren't one if you "flag" just don't work for me. It fractures an otherwise unified server community in ways that don't comfortably overlap.
    I played L2, lol that system does nothing to prevent PK's, you are correct, it does not pretend to be a PvE game at all.

    Anyway, I guess I am ignorant, so please explain to me how the flagging system in SWG was exploited? Because I have been under the impression that it was one of the few things that worked very well and I was not aware of any exploits.

    Flagging work better than the L2 auto flag system, imo. Having played both, extensively.
    Not being devious, I guess, how does any flagging system get "exploited?" Who would exploit it and why?

    I thought it was a simple "PvP"/"NO PvP" thing. Is my PvP ignorance showing? :blush:

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,215
    edited October 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    I thought it was a simple "PvP"/"NO PvP" thing. Is my PvP ignorance showing? :blush:
    I'm in the pvp ignorant camp as well (one of my bad design decisions listed was forced pvp), so I only have a limited experience on the matter, still I agree with Torval: every flag system I've met, without exception, was exploited.

    You're correct in it should be a simple pvp/no pvp thing. I believe that's why Torval used the term exploit, since design and implementation don't walk side by side all the time, and when a player flags themselves for "no pvp" and suddenly finds himself/herself ganked, it surely feels like an exploit.
    The few cases I've experienced, without pointing fingers at games (since some of those were bugs and fixed, some are still in the game) were included:
    some ground-target AoE powers deals damage to the flagged player and removes the flag,
    a certain aura from a player shares flag status (so a pvp flagged player runs into the town and toggle everyone there for a target to his ganking buddies),
    mob hugging since a fairly popular power's AoE tick could apply to pvp players and with it un-flag the mob-hunting PvE player,
    ninja invite to group or guild, and while the interaction window was up the player was free target for ganks (was the easiest to prevent, just switched ninja invites to auto-reject)
    party finder turned on pvp flag if a candidate had the flag, regardless of actually get into the instance or not (gankers were sitting in the queue and when it popped just hit decline - flag had a cooldown, after such a failed pop players were free pvp targets for several minutes)
    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,355
    You can craft things instantaneous by clicking a button.

    Crafting should take times so 1 crafter can't flood an entire server worth of item.
    iixviiiixAmarantharAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    ill tell you why i think raids and when I say raids I mean generally private pve raids. This is not meant to knock anyone who currently enjoys that activity.  This is just an observation from pretty much EQ to ESO.

    The real problem with it is that it tends to concentrate a certain kind of player aka the hardcore player, who is usually also very vocal on the boards ( this may not be you!). Over time through a process i call raidculture these voices overwhelm all other voices and the game begins to change toward a game more suitable for these voices to the detriment of all the other voices. Some developers resist these voices to some degree. 

    eso's great example is dlc dungeons which prior to fall 2017 many people completed on vet mode, but the "we need extreme challenge" folk  got their way and suddenly what was endgame aka new dungeons simply disappeared for alot of players! Then it was a choice between doing something that was too easy and no reward or a choice between too hard and way too hard. 

    EQ of course was not initially a raiding game as there were only 2 dragons to kill so i dont think they planned it that way but it became a hardcore raiding game, maybe the most hardcore raiding game of all time because people listen to those voices. 

    So here we are many years later and the gameplay for a mmo hasent really changed much since EQ , often worse, and the same things keep happening. Certain players keep petitioning for more hardcore content even though most players will likely never see it and depending on the developer they get their way. 

    the next aspect is that because raids focus on bosses things like crowd control and other gameplay tend to become redundant because the encounters would be too easy. So the games adapt too and since other viewpoints often arent included, things like crowd control take a general back seat and all of a sudden the only thing that matters in your game is dps. 

    now we have a real problem because this translates through the game to the point where everything is either too easy or too hard based solely on your dps.  

    Raid based gameplay is a dumbing down force for the rest of the game, even though the opposite is usually claimed. All the tools that should be at the disposal of a player are whisked away and whittled down to only include those tools that finish the boss most effectively. 

    you either have the dps or you dont. If your wondering why no game has matched Eq's basic game ( not the raids). This is why. Your toolshed is empty. Daoc had it right in some respects but even that was overwhelmed with trials and destroyed. 




           
    AlBQuirky
    We shall know them by their works
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,136
    edited October 2019
    Gear grind endgame where you repeat the same content over and over in order to get high ilvl gear to grind the same content only with an increase in difficulty. This is just 80's arcade level design. You don't get more powerful, the gear is just a gate keeping you from going to that next level. It doesn't make you more powerful. All artificial bullshit designed to keep you subscribed longer.
    SovrathultimateduckAlBQuirkyAmaranthar
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,118
    Here something that really bothering me as bad game design.

    In a so called PvP MMORPG, why the heck would it have PvE Level Grind in a PvP MMO? didnt Warhammer do this as well? and Archeage? Terrible game design.
    SteelhelmAlBQuirky

    image

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430
    IMHO bad game design choices:

    - lack of player cooperation / competition elements
    You always needs sufficient amounts of player cooperation and player competition in a MMO, otherwise I would have a hard time qualifying it as a MMO, even if it otherwise would fit the definition. I feel that Fallout 76, while being a disappointment in other areas as well, also demonstrated this problem.

    - instancing / cross server grouping / "phasing" / ...
    Sure, it saves network traffic, and it avoids certain problems. But this completely kills the MMO experience for me, because you no longer live in a defined world with a defined mass of players. I WANT these problems like everyone waiting on some boss to spawn because that gives me the actual experience of competing with other players over a resource.

    - too strong focus on graphics alone
    MMOs should put world size / amount of content over the prettiest most recent graphics. Great graphics are fun for an half hour or so, then you have forgotten they are even there. A game with longterm motivation needs substance, that means quality of course, but also sheer quantity.

    - "immersion"
    The only game that ever managed to keep me so immersed that I couldnt sleep because I kept thinking about it was ... chess. Is chess realistic ? Not at all. But its a very well designed game for sure. Thus a game can only be immersive if its well designed *as a game*. Otherwise "realistic" elements quickly turn into "pointless superflous repetitive timewasting" elements.

    - free to play, game shop, microtransactions, ...
    Everyone should play under the same outer conditions.

    - enforced first person perspective
    Some people loooooove this for "realism". But sorry - unless you play a mediveal knight, who with many helmets had a very surprisingly limited view, this is NOT actually a realistic viewing perspective. Also I really enjoy looking at my own character. Or not ... in that case, I dont like playing them, though.

    - dumb, non-sportive PvP
    If theres PvP, it should be fun for everyone participating. For example outright newbie ganking should be made impossible; if you attack somebody you should ALWAYS have a good chance you die yourself.

    - full loot PvP / lack of item focus
    This removes one area in which you can progress your character. For a game with longterm motivation, thats a really bad idea.

    - no crafting / no housing / ...
    Again this removes an area in which players can progress. Bad idea if you want a game with longterm motivation.

    - best gear only from raids
    Getting best gear should include all your gaming spheres. I.e. adventuring, crafting, raiding. Also PvP, if thats available.

    - permadeath
    EVE has a good implementation, that on paper allows permadeath but in practice still doesnt. Unless you have something very complex and refined like that, its a really bad idea that will lead to very justified /ragequit's of the player after they lost the character they've been working on for months if not years.

    - permanent item decay
    This leads to treatmill gaming that requires getting the same gear again and again. Thats really bad for a game that is supposed to have longterm motivation.

    - Lack of classes
    Classes allow you to have a character following rules no other character has to follow, unless they belong to the same class. This encourages playing alternate characters and thus adds to longterm motivation to play the game.

    - To little or too much balancing
    All classes should be worthwhile to play. Thus there should be some balance. On the other hand classes should have flashy abilities that really make them stand out.

    - race (or, worse, gender) restricted classes
    Oh I'm all for making race a substantial choice that changes your gameplay fundamentally.

    But I dont see how not allowing certain classes for certain races would actually archieve that. A sentient race would logically be able to fulfill ANY possible job.

    Sure, if you have a very good reason - for example I find the reasoning in Dragon Age: Origins why Dwarves cant be Mage is understandable. Still a very bad idea, like so many things about this very limited rulesystem, but at least it makes sense.

    Gender restricted would be only even worse; I can see rare, justified examples like Valkyr (rides unicorns, can thus only be female) or Eunuch (male only, for while you can sexually cripple women, too, it really only is a mutilation for them, but male Eunuchs are really different than regular male people), but not a general limitations, like only male Paladins.

    - Items that only stay until you log out
    Theres no problem with items gone after a server reboot. But if you are forced to stay logged in merely because you dont want to lose your temporary items, thats bad design.



    AlBQuirky
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
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