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Population control, it's a messy problem to solve.

I've been following most every video stream made for Pantheon. From the beginning I've watched the group fight their way across a zone to fighting in caves and keeps.  Adding this game will have "slow-take-your-time-strategic-combat".

Notice I emphasized the combat !.......... I did that for a reason that bothered me from the first video I watched.

How do you control the population from crisscrossing and disturbing your groups plans. I've watched even trash mobs take up to five minuets to take down.  But with this, adds more opportunity of other groups targeting your kill and it gets worst, what about the mob beyond the one your presently fighting...... Take down speed could be a variable since the game is still pre-alpha, but it appears slow will be one of the features and remain to some degree.


Visionary Realms is viewing this as a problem that WE DON'T SEE, because were seeing controlled situations that are choreographed for our viewing...... Visionary Realms has a heavy burden to solve, more so than all previous mmorpg's if they want to keep slow-strategic as their main feature.

Phasing replicas seem as one solution but that seem's to be an argument even among Visionary realms themselves.
Could it be un-solvable ?........ Modern developers solved this issue by making EVERYTHING EASY AND QUICK at the expense of strategic.  They basically sold us out in that respect to make it easier on themselves....Therefore the era of mindless games ! 


They have a dilemma on their hands, lets wish them luck because they refuse to bow for a mindless "easy" game.  
bcbully
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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited October 2019
    Final Fantasy 14, I was their on release day.

    It's starting zone population was heavy.  Everyone killing everything everyplace.  Single shot easy takedowns were their answer..... I didn't view that as fun, but irritating with the hopes of population spread out later on...... Well the combat NEVER got more difficult, why have abilities and gear ?..... I quit 30 days later. 

    Pantheon doesn't want that....


    Edit:
    I'm using FF14 as a metaphor.

    It's to demonstrate that large populations and slow-strategic combat can not exist in the same field..... It seems people will take this as a different subject all together. 
    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    edited October 2019
    Final Fantasy 14, I was their on release day.

    It's starting zone population was heavy.  Everyone killing everything everyplace.  Single shot easy takedowns were their answer..... I didn't view that as fun, but irritating with the hopes of population spread out later on...... Well the combat NEVER got more difficult, why have abilities and gear ?..... I quit 30 days later. 

    Pantheon doesn't want that....
    Modern MMORPGs generally reserve their more challenging content for the end game, i.e. raiding which you never reach or do by your own admission.

    My guess is you didn't play FFXIV long enough to experience the more difficult content, and perhaps you never have in any game?

    In early MMOs it could be difficult for a lower level solo player to kill even a single NPC which was even con, especially for certain classes such as healers or even tanks but most classes improved as they obtained additional skills as they leveled.

    All MMOs struggle with launch day blues, over crowded beginner zones which these days are mitigated by spinning up additional instances much like Blizzard did for its recent release of Classic which I'm sure the devs of Pantheon will make use of as needed.

    TLDR version.... IMO the problem is more in your imagination than a reality. 



    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Kyleran said:
    Final Fantasy 14, I was their on release day.

    It's starting zone population was heavy.  Everyone killing everything everyplace.  Single shot easy takedowns were their answer..... I didn't view that as fun, but irritating with the hopes of population spread out later on...... Well the combat NEVER got more difficult, why have abilities and gear ?..... I quit 30 days later. 

    Pantheon doesn't want that....
    Modern MMORPGs generally reserve their more challenging content for the end game, i.e. raiding which you never reach or do by your own admission.

    My guess is you didn't play FFXIV long enough to experience the more difficult content, and perhaps you never have in any game?

    In early MMOs it could be difficult for a lower level solo player to kill even a single NPC which was even con, especially for certain classes such as healers or even tanks but most classes improved as they obtained additional skills as they leveled.

    All MMOs struggle with launch day blues, over crowded beginner zones which these days are mitigated by spinning up additional instances much like Blizzard did for its recent release of Classic which I'm sure the devs of Pantheon will make use of as needed.

    TLDR version.... IMO the problem is more in your imagination than a reality. 



    Sounds like a nice rebuttal, but I stand by simple-easy-combat to solve an issue and make it easier for themselves...... Congrats on spinning the topic to your liking. 

    THE GAME IS EASY !.... Wait until end game ?.... That sucks any way you view it.... It's a shitty design if it comes down to that.  

    It's like eating dry mashed potatoes for an hour before your allowed to eat the Steak :)
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    I never said modern MMORPGs easy until end game design was a good idea, it's one of the big reasons I no longer play them.

    Recall my favorite MMORPG is EVE, where it is often said with some degree of truth end game begins on day one.

    A bit of hyperbole of course, but still EVE is equally punishing on both the noob and the veteran alike should either make a mistake. 

    I also don't see how you can make a case that Pantheon will invariably follow the combat design model of more modern titles when Brad has repeatedly stated this will not be the case.



    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    edited October 2019
    Some quotes from Brad's Oct 4th Dev blog to reinforce my arguments. I recommend you thoroughly read the blog as I found it very enlightening. (Bookmarked it actually)

    "Beginning your Journey

    In any case, when you’ve begun your adventure, when you’ve left safety, you’ll find that personal survival is left to the individual – the game doesn’t hold your hand.  Success will depend a lot on who you are, your race, your class, and most importantly the tactics you employ."

    "Pantheon is and isn’t like other Games

    This isn’t a traditional MMO by any stretch of the means.  There’s the intensity of Survival games minus the permadeath and session-based limitations -- Pantheon’s persistent eco-system means you can really build your character up over months, even years"

    "Terminus is yours to tackle, however you do so, likely dying quite a bit (which you’ll soon realize is one of the best ways to learn). It’s about adventure and exploration, bartering gear in a city, forming a group and besting powerful boss mobs, or holding a position deep in the depth of a dungeon until your party has the item they seek."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/188/much-to-do-about-pantheon-cco-update


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Kyleran said:
    I never said modern MMORPGs easy until end game design was a good idea, it's one of the big reasons I no longer play them.

    Recall my favorite MMORPG is EVE, where it is often said with some degree of truth end game begins on day one.

    A bit of hyperbole of course, but still EVE is equally punishing on both the noob and the veteran alike should either make a mistake. 

    I also don't see how you can make a case that Pantheon will invariably follow the combat design model of more modern titles when Brad has repeatedly stated this will not be the case.



    Well at least that a little better,
    Because expecting to play a game for "four months" before it gets better is ludicrous. 
    Kylerancheeba
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Kyleran said:
    Some quotes from Brad's Oct 4th Dev blog to reinforce my arguments. I recommend you thoroughly read the blog as I found it very enlightening. (Bookmarked it actually)

    "Beginning your Journey

    In any case, when you’ve begun your adventure, when you’ve left safety, you’ll find that personal survival is left to the individual – the game doesn’t hold your hand.  Success will depend a lot on who you are, your race, your class, and most importantly the tactics you employ."

    "Pantheon is and isn’t like other Games

    This isn’t a traditional MMO by any stretch of the means.  There’s the intensity of Survival games minus the permadeath and session-based limitations -- Pantheon’s persistent eco-system means you can really build your character up over months, even years"

    "Terminus is yours to tackle, however you do so, likely dying quite a bit (which you’ll soon realize is one of the best ways to learn). It’s about adventure and exploration, bartering gear in a city, forming a group and besting powerful boss mobs, or holding a position deep in the depth of a dungeon until your party has the item they seek."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/188/much-to-do-about-pantheon-cco-update


    I'm not understanding the "argument" ? 

    I read it carefully, and agree and love it. I also understood this to be true all along.  What's the rebuttal your trying to make ? 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    One of us doesn't understand the point you are trying to make, just not sure it's me though.

    Cheers.

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Kyleran said:
    One of us doesn't understand the point you are trying to make, just not sure it's me though.

    Cheers.

    ;)
    I made an edit to the FF14,
    apparently many here don't understand metaphor's. I use them constantly in everyday life and they are understood in every case. Theirs a reason I used FF14 as an example to demonstrate how "easy" solves problems..... I guess i'll really have to be more specific in doing so from here on out. 


    I'll give an example of how metaphor's help:
    I recently changed careers within the same origination I work for.  I now work on guidance systems for sidewinder missiles.  Extremely complicated, the training is intense.  The trainer with each explanation repeatedly ask if I understand, there has to be a full understanding !   I'll use a metaphor in response.... This is always taken as a valid a receipt to insure understanding.  

    I guess it doesn't work here.... people go off topic.  
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,909
    Is delete wizardys slightly more poetic brother ?
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Utinni said:
    Is delete wizardys slightly more poetic brother ?
    You simply can't follow this could you. 
    It's like trying to explain how Credit Card dept works to 80% of the population, or any way overpriced store offers 10% off and it's still high priced. 


    They look at you like a deer in your head lights. 
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    So basically Pantheon is going to have the same problem every other MMORPG have.
    Outrageous!
  • bng28bng28 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited October 2019
    They arent ignoring these things.  They have acknowledged them and that they are a part of an uninstanced open-world game.  

    If youre worried about someone else getting a mob in front of you, because youre slowly killing the mob youre fighting... remember that the combat isnt different for the other people that ran ahead..  additionally, thats a part of an open-world game.  

    As i understand it, the phasing thing is not confirmed as a solution to distributing mobs, it was just brads thoughts.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,676
    I think the OP deserves an award for watching all the videos and streams of this game......I watched 2 or 3 and that was enough! Super slow, super dull gameplay
  • bng28bng28 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited October 2019
    I think the OP deserves an award for watching all the videos and streams of this game......I watched 2 or 3 and that was enough! Super slow, super dull gameplay
    I would go as far as to say most MMO combat is dull and boring to watch.  Take a mid level instance run in WoW, lets say RFD or RFK and you just watch someone else do it.  Fuckin boring.  Different story when youre playing.  

    I took that example of mid level dungeon in WoW simply because thats all we have really seen is low to mid level combat in pantheon.

    MMO's from a PvE perspective are not spectator sports imho.  and obviously not sports at all, but you get my point.
    delete5230
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited October 2019
    I think Pantheon will be very happy to have a (n over) population problem.
    This is not a metaphor.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    DMKano said:
    bng28 said:
    I would go as far as to say most MMO combat is dull and boring to watch.  Take a mid level instance run in WoW, lets say RFD or RFK and you just watch someone else do it.  Fuckin boring.  Different story when youre playing.  


    Its pretty boring when you play too - after a while its just /ZZZzzzz
    I rather enjoy it, makes it easier to watch Netflix while gaming.

     :) 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • bng28bng28 Member UncommonPosts: 71
    Then find a game less boring /shrug
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    DMKano said:
    bng28 said:
    I would go as far as to say most MMO combat is dull and boring to watch.  Take a mid level instance run in WoW, lets say RFD or RFK and you just watch someone else do it.  Fuckin boring.  Different story when youre playing.  


    Its pretty boring when you play too - after a while its just /ZZZzzzz
    Can I please ask.... what do you like?... you slam everything EVERYONE SAYS. Never ever a good word about anything at all.

    A lot of people like a technical combat system instead of fun styles. Even I know that and i'm considered close minded.



    I understand theirs a lot of resentment for me, but come on, nothing good ever.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    DMKano said:
    bng28 said:
    I would go as far as to say most MMO combat is dull and boring to watch.  Take a mid level instance run in WoW, lets say RFD or RFK and you just watch someone else do it.  Fuckin boring.  Different story when youre playing.  


    Its pretty boring when you play too - after a while its just /ZZZzzzz
    Can I please ask.... what do you like?... you slam everything EVERYONE SAYS. Never ever a good word about anything at all.

    A lot of people like a technical combat system instead of fun styles. Even I know that and i'm considered close minded.



    I understand theirs a lot of resentment for me, but come on, nothing good ever.
    He used to like everything Trion did or published.
    Now that Trion went bust he’s gone in full negative mode, especially when there are news of Archeage and its current publisher Gamigo.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,394
    @DMKano is right about WoW dungeons, in part. Dungeon runs in WoW get boring as the players have gear that makes slaughtering everything in sight easy. I have been on quite a few such runs and the only exciting part is the fear you will fall behind the group as they race through.

    Now, when the dungeons are new, and you are first taking them in and learning them, they are somewhat fun. In my opinion, anyway. 
    Torval

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    Kyleran said:
    One of us doesn't understand the point you are trying to make, just not sure it's me though.

    Cheers.

    ;)
    I made an edit to the FF14,
    apparently many here don't understand metaphor's. I use them constantly in everyday life and they are understood in every case. Theirs a reason I used FF14 as an example to demonstrate how "easy" solves problems..... I guess i'll really have to be more specific in doing so from here on out. 


    I'll give an example of how metaphor's help:
    I recently changed careers within the same origination I work for.  I now work on guidance systems for sidewinder missiles.  Extremely complicated, the training is intense.  The trainer with each explanation repeatedly ask if I understand, there has to be a full understanding !   I'll use a metaphor in response.... This is always taken as a valid a receipt to insure understanding.  

    I guess it doesn't work here.... people go off topic.  
    I'm not sure where the metaphor was in your OP.  Perhaps you were going for the effect I bolded below, if so consider it a success.  ;)

    metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another.[1] It may provide (or obscure) clarity or identify hidden similarities between two ideas.
    Sovrath

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Amathe said:
    @DMKano is right about WoW dungeons, in part. Dungeon runs in WoW get boring as the players have gear that makes slaughtering everything in sight easy. I have been on quite a few such runs and the only exciting part is the fear you will fall behind the group as they race through.

    Now, when the dungeons are new, and you are first taking them in and learning them, they are somewhat fun. In my opinion, anyway. 
    Not just gear but add-ons:

    It's just a jump to the left
    And then a step to the right
    With your hands on your hips
    You bring your knees in tight
    But it's the pelvic thrust
    That really drives you insane
    Let's do the dungeon again
    TorvalKyleran
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,865
    edited October 2019
    Why are groups moving across the zone is the first question i ask?
    This would prove why i hate dungeon crawling,why are there groups not camping an area so then other groups camp another area.

    This tells me it is simply a lame Wow 2.0 design,killing trash mobs to get to some boss because you figure being a boss drops some good loot.

    i DO NOT want another loot game,the reason to play is to get loot is a very shallow reason.All those Destiny's and Tom Clancy's,Borderlands,all those shallow games trying to create interest by dropping loot to me are pathetic games.

    I want my character to be interesting and fun to play,i want all the classes to be fun to play,i want to enjoy grouping with other people but not for the sole purpose of reaching some Boss.

    There is a reason i can't stand MHW,i hate SHALLOW rpg's,i would rather play some old ugly pixel FF5 than any of these shallow designs.I do NOT need an enemy to be giant sized,i do not need some flashy loot to warrant me playing,give me quality design and NOT gimmicks.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Wizardry said:
    Why are groups moving across the zone is the first question i ask?
    This would prove why i hate dungeon crawling,why are there groups not camping an area so then other groups camp another area.

    This tells me it is simply a lame Wow 2.0 design,killing trash mobs to get to some boss because you figure being a boss drops some good loot.

    i DO NOT want another loot game,the reason to play is to get loot is a very shallow reason.All those Destiny's and Tom Clancy's,Borderlands,all those shallow games trying to create interest by dropping loot to me are pathetic games.

    I want my character to be interesting and fun to play,i want all the classes to be fun to play,i want to enjoy grouping with other people but not for the sole purpose of reaching some Boss.

    There is a reason i can't stand MHW,i hate SHALLOW rpg's,i would rather play some old ugly pixel FF5 than any of these shallow designs.I do NOT need an enemy to be giant sized,i do not need some flashy loot to warrant me playing,give me quality design and NOT gimmicks.


    Several things going on here,
    Dungeon cowling is STILL fun by many people, it's been awhile since we had a good intellectual one where you don't have to wait for end game.... There are a few reasons people rush to end game.  One is to prove their superiority by use of speed play, but the bigger one is getting to the intellectual part of the game.

    The intellectual part is much like chess but even more so.  People rushing to end game proves many don't want stupid games that MARKETING IS FORCING ON PEOPLE, and telling them that's what EVERYONE ELSE wants so you better fall in line to the larger population.

    It's like chess but six people are on the same side, with the hopes that everyone is a good player.


    Character is interesting and fun to play.... Actually, recently I realized this is the hold up.  Brad is consumed with interesting and fun to play classes.  In all his videos he is demonstrating his progress in classes and balance, it's all the videos are about.... Unfortunately WATCHING is not portraying this well. 

    From an "outside point of view" it appears boring. 


    Another loot game.  People want a prize, a reason to be doing what their doing.  It's the bases behind "every video game ever made" other than the challenge itself.

    Many people want intellectual, it's been years !
      

    @Wizardry I think your just having a bad day, your one of the more intelligent ones here.  Years down the road will all be excited to play.... But for now many of us are frustrated because we had been at this for years with no release in sight.
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