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What's left?

DarkHighDarkHigh Member UncommonPosts: 147
With the pay to win, politics, cash grabs, etc. What is left for MMO gamers? Specifically those who like PvP content. I'm one who thoroughly enjoyed PvP in Lineage 2, Aion (pre-p2w cash shop),  Archeage (alpha), and even BDO although I spent my fair share of cash trying to stay competitive.

So what's left? Is the genre finally at the point it's time to walk away? From what I see there doesn't seem to be anything coming out that isn't a cash grab or vaporware kickstarter mmo.

Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,573
    edited October 14
    well I am here for laughs mostly at this point.

    I backed Pantheon, Crawfall, Camelot and a few others but have zero expectations for any of them to amount to anything good honestly. 

    Mmorpg genre is dead - its the genre of indies who are struggling to finish their projects.

    Raph Koster announced a new project recently with Scott Hartsman.... at this point these veteran names mean diddly poo to me.

    The proof is in the pudding - and so far none of these indies have made any pudding so it's all a bunch empty talk - indie project (insert name) update 836 - "New armor color palette and new payment tiers introduced - $1000 will give your exclusive access to the new color palette for your armor (1 per account)" - it's an absolute farce at this point, hillarious what the genre has been reduced to lol!


    Going to remain skeptical about any and all upcoming mmo projects no matter who is behind them, because it's all been a bunch of immense bullshit 


    As far as these scammy companies relaunching 7 year old games as new with new founder packs etc... or failed Korean games coming to the west as "classic mmos"....

    Those are on the players themselves falling for the same old shit yet again, believing that oh its different this time when its the same clowns behind the scenes having hands in your wallet. And then the players will cry once again how they've been lied to... really now? 

    I guess there is classic wow - which was the most casual mmorpg of it's time- it's now labeled as "old school and even hard"... lol, please...

    I once thought what happened to the mmorpg genre was a tragedy, but now I realize it's a comedy. :smiley:
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • LobotomistLobotomist Member RarePosts: 5,821
    DMKano said:
    well I am here for laughs mostly at this point.

    I backed Pantheon, Crawfall, Camelot and a few others but have zero expectations for any of them to amount to anything good honestly. 

    Mmorpg genre is dead - its the genre of indies who are struggling to finish their projects.

    I stopped posting on this site long time ago, visiting only out of force of habbit... Or playing MMOs. Or even hoping anything will come out.

    As I said many times before. Its dead. We went from a genre that held most potential to a dead genre in span of years.

    And the reason: megalomania

    Developers started thinking MMO sucessis measured in millions of concurrent users. And anything less is a failure.

    We had mmos with 600 thousand users, being called failures and cancelled.

    Today we know that such numbers are unrealistic.


    To reach even close to such numbers your game must be accomodating to most casual playstyle and probably also be free and for children ( and also have children kill each other, and insult each other ) like Fortnite or LoL

    The MMOs are - we know now - Niche thing.

    This is why unrealistic expectations - set by WoW and EQ - destroyed the genre.

    Today if anyone is making new MMO they should count with 1000 concurrent users at maximum.
    And if that is enough to keep their buisness afloat - You will have a winning MMO


    At the moment developers realise this simple fact - MMOs will rise again.



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,573

    Today if anyone is making new MMO they should count with 1000 concurrent users at maximum.
    And if that is enough to keep their buisness afloat - You will have a winning MMO


    At the moment developers realise this simple fact - MMOs will rise again.


    The problem is - outside of handful cases where the game is made by 1 or 2 people - not even indie mmorpgs companies that have 20-30 total employees can survive off 1000 concurrent users max for a long time.


    Also even indie mmorpgs cost way too much money and take way too much time to make today - which makes them a bad type of project to even attempt.

    So yeah  - barring a total miracle out of one of these indies- the mmorpg genre is dead.


    Kyleran
  • LobotomistLobotomist Member RarePosts: 5,821
    edited October 14
    DMKano said:

    The problem is - outside of handful cases where the game is made by 1 or 2 people - not even indie mmorpgs companies that have 20-30 total employees can survive off 1000 concurrent users max for a long time.


    Also even indie mmorpgs cost way too much money and take way too much time to make today - which makes them a bad type of project to even attempt.

    So yeah  - barring a total miracle out of one of these indies- the mmorpg genre is dead.


    True. This is why we must deal with 2 other misconceptions of today MMO developers

    1. MMOs should have Realistic 3D graphic
    2. MMOs whouldhave abundance of written, premade content ( quests )

    Both of those are simply unrealistic.

    Last MMO that had some semblance of hope for MMO world was EQ3. Sony was actual company with funds that employed actual people. But when Sony was suddenly sold to Russian mafia.
    Smedly left and kickstarted a very curious MMO "Hero Song".

    This MMO is I believe a blueprint of what MMO should be to actually succed:

    It had dynamic world, dynamic quests, changing world - in short everything EQ3 was suppose to have. But all done in easy to make 2d world and 2d graphic. The quest and content was created procedurally.

    They could have easily made this, and surely it would not have 100 000 players. But we allready established that this is expectation thats killing MMOs.

    A small, niche project, that is sustainable. That is what we need.

    -

    Hero Song ended because Smed was offered job at Amazon studios ( i think ) , so yea ... another one down the drain.

    Still. This kind of sustainable - realistic project, is what we need.





  • RoyalkinRoyalkin Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited October 20
    DMKano said:

    The problem is - outside of handful cases where the game is made by 1 or 2 people - not even indie mmorpgs companies that have 20-30 total employees can survive off 1000 concurrent users max for a long time.


    Also even indie mmorpgs cost way too much money and take way too much time to make today - which makes them a bad type of project to even attempt.

    So yeah  - barring a total miracle out of one of these indies- the mmorpg genre is dead.


    True. This is why we must deal with 2 other misconceptions of today MMO developers

    1. MMOs should have Realistic 3D graphic
    2. MMOs whouldhave abundance of written, premade content ( quests )

    Both of those are simply unrealistic.

    Last MMO that had some semblance of hope for MMO world was EQ3. Sony was actual company with funds that employed actual people. But when Sony was suddenly sold to Russian mafia.
    Smedly left and kickstarted a very curious MMO "Hero Song".

    This MMO is I believe a blueprint of what MMO should be to actually succed:

    It had dynamic world, dynamic quests, changing world - in short everything EQ3 was suppose to have. But all done in easy to make 2d world and 2d graphic. The quest and content was created procedurally.

    They could have easily made this, and surely it would not have 100 000 players. But we allready established that this is expectation thats killing MMOs.

    A small, niche project, that is sustainable. That is what we need.

    -

    Hero Song ended because Smed was offered job at Amazon studios ( i think ) , so yea ... another one down the drain.

    Still. This kind of sustainable - realistic project, is what we need.



    Once again, Lobotmist nails it.

    It is a gross misconception (and another pitfall of the themepark design philosophy) that an MMO must have hours upon hours of scripted, quest driven gameplay and progression. The sad reality is that players often blow through this content far more quickly than was intended and designed for. Even if more content was planned for, it would require a legion of developers to create it in a timely manner. In reality, players chew through the content that is available, become bored waiting for the next update, and then go elsewhere like swarms of locusts seeking their next meal. Additionally, having such a large staff would spell bankruptcy. Case in point, development costs are already astronomical, which is why large publishers need such a large audience for a game to remain solvent and profitable. Furthermore, requiring that an MMO be "all thing" to "all people", or "make everyone happy" is just setting yourself up for failure, and this is why these hoped for multi-million subscriber MMOs always fail. As a result, they fall to microtransactions, cash shops, and dreaded loot boxes, thus preying on their customers to make up the difference.

    It's time for MMOs to abandon the questing progression model; it simply isn't chronologically or financially feasible. Leave quests to single-player games where they are best served and truly belong, and let players within MMOs create their own stories as it should be.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,557
    edited October 20
    Well i wouldn't aim for a rpg to pvp in,that is scraping the bottom.
    There are tons of games designed specifically to pvp,like Unreal Tournament "highest skill needed",Overwatch ,TCG's,Hero games etc etc.

    What is left is only HOPE but right now EVERYTHING in gaming is about maximizing profits in an absolutely flooded market.Remember when Wow made it rich then all those crappy copy cat games came out,well Hearthstone did very well for about 2-3 years now we see a ton new tcg's ,likely at least 20 or more.

    Just like real life that has run out of ways to cut corners,gaming is in the same boat.We already dropped to the gutter with claims of FREE to play making millions of dollars and hand holding/markers in games is like they are made for 7 year olds.

    Just hope and pray there is an upcoming Producer...team that has the ability to give us a AAA game with more substance than loot drops.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 820
    DarkHigh said:
    With the pay to win, politics, cash grabs, etc. What is left for MMO gamers? Specifically those who like PvP content. I'm one who thoroughly enjoyed PvP in Lineage 2, Aion (pre-p2w cash shop),  Archeage (alpha), and even BDO although I spent my fair share of cash trying to stay competitive.

    So what's left? Is the genre finally at the point it's time to walk away? From what I see there doesn't seem to be anything coming out that isn't a cash grab or vaporware kickstarter mmo.
    Perhaps the Legends of Aria private server Legends of Ultima may be of interest to you. Their goal is to create an experience akin to that of pre-Trammel Ultima Online so far as I understand, which may provide something similar to what you seek.

    The purchase price for LoA is a single payment of ~ $23 CDN, and on the private server I play on the cash shop is disabled. I don't play on LoU, but I expect it would be the same. A bit of online searching should be able to confirm one way or the other.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,104
    edited October 20
    We have seen MMORPG's change more than most other genres, but some genres have all but disappeared while no type of game has escaped the huge changes which have occurred over the last twenty years. So if it is time to walk away from MMOs where are you going to go to?

    The OP mentioned PvP; shooters have changed mostly for the worse, either becoming easy mode, cartoon caricatures, or using a simplistic setup that inhibits the use of strategy (like BR) and I am not even going into the game as a service aspect here.

    Looking at other genres, arcade platform has is possibly had the most obvious journey into ever easier play in gaming. Gaming has changed so much that terms used in the nineties don't even have the same meaning now, not just MMORPG, the same can be said for "adventure games". They used to be an RPG with lots of interactivity and puzzle solving. Now it is used for anything Conan Exiles, Destiny 2, Postal 4.

    When games started to make more money than films globally a few years ago you knew the writing was on the wall. Gaming has become the leading entertainment mass media with all the issues that go with that. Glossy, shallow and the product of a conveyor belt of high volume output for the masses.

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  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,375
    edited October 20
    In the age of entitlement, people are going to invite themselves to places they do not belong.

    Because those people make up the majority, studios are giving into demands from people whom don't even like MMORPGs, thus making MMORPGs into "something else".

    What studios still haven't realize is that those entitled people have the attention span of a knat. They are not loyal to any game. Like locust, the move on. Leaving studios and the real fans of MMORPGs holding the bag.

    I bet you most studios would kill to have 300K dedicated, long-term players. Instead, they aim for millions of entitled locust and the game ends up with a few thousand in the end.
    AlBQuirkyScot
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • SpiiderSpiider Member RarePosts: 773
    The problems is that people who make mmos nowadays are greedy fkcs in business outfits and not gamers who want to make their dreams come true.
    AlBQuirkyScot

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,375
    Spiider said:
    The problems is that people who make mmos nowadays are greedy fkcs in business outfits and not gamers who want to make their dreams come true.
    Oh come on. Are you saying this guy doesn't look like he plays games as a hobby and has your interests at heart?


    AlBQuirkyScot
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    It's time to play another genre, I chose fighting games for my PvP fix.  It's fun to discuss what could have been with the mmorpg genre.
    AlBQuirky

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • LotheapLotheap Member CommonPosts: 10
    how about Planetside 2.

    it's entierly pvp, but on prime times there's so many enemies and allies it almost feel like really hard co-op pve.

    it's true open-world, true f2p, true action combat, no daily grinds, what more can you ask.
    the only downsides are relatively high hardware demand and steep learning curve.
  • VagabondoVagabondo Member UncommonPosts: 16
    So, ya´ll basically say MMORPG´s are dead and there is no hope...

    Sad reality to say the least.
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,110
    DarkHigh said:
    With the pay to win, politics, cash grabs, etc. What is left for MMO gamers? Specifically those who like PvP content. I'm one who thoroughly enjoyed PvP in Lineage 2, Aion (pre-p2w cash shop),  Archeage (alpha), and even BDO although I spent my fair share of cash trying to stay competitive.

    So what's left? Is the genre finally at the point it's time to walk away? From what I see there doesn't seem to be anything coming out that isn't a cash grab or vaporware kickstarter mmo.
    PvE is not much better...there's only WoW. 

    image

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,212
    I would have thought that advances in technology would have made making mmorpgs a bit easier...20 years later.   I'm guessing that there is no dedicated audience or limited advances.
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