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OPINION: The Tone Deaf Hypocrisy of Blizzard and 'Keep Politics Out'

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,594
    Diablo Immortal is coming out which will be 'huge' in China. It was obvious that Blizzard kiss up to China....
    ManWithNoTan
  • foxgirlfoxgirl Member UncommonPosts: 111
    While Blizz isn't blameless, this was Activision's doing, they just let Blizzard take all the heat.
  • vegetableoilvegetableoil Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Tiller said:




    bcbully said:


    Two things you should never punish people for supporting -

    Freedom
    Human rights 

    Idk what your beliefs are about whatever. Punish a person for those things you will lose. 






    Hmm I got several warning playing star trek online, and all I said is "Trump may not be as stupid as he appear" I'm pretty sure it's not only exclusive to cryptic. and voila blizzard and also probably most of companies.



    I'm gonna interject here and say that the political outrage trolling that was going on by what I consider a troll flash-mob in STO chat on a daily basis over the summer was probably what attributed to your ban; as well as many others who may or may not actually have been there to play the game.
    not banned, I spent 80 ships on that game and probably the game still exist because people like me, and I could easily walk and let the game rot, but I didn't, and when I said it, because I was responding maybe democrat loses because trump is not as stupid as it seems, I was definitely baited though. then again you can't separate the a man and his beliefs. and there is nothing political thinking maybe trump is not stupid. I'm neither democrat nor republican.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,968
    This is such a disappointing development for this website. I have been here since 2005 and not had to read political rants. But now this will become the soup of the day. Because that's why I come to a gaming website, right? To read politics? 

    And it's really just Blizzard bashing. Hong Kong and China have been at odds since at least 1972, and the tension really peaked in the early 2000s. I would love to read one word - one word - that the OP ever penned on that issue before this Blizzard incident. Nothing? I figured. So let's be more careful in the use of the word "hypocrisy." 
    NephethQuizzicalScotXarkobcbullyKaladonn

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 302
    There is a simple reality to all of this that is being hidden. That reality is the silencing of anyone you disagree with under the auspice of "hate" "isms". Its nothing more and nothing less. The left and its hordes of fanatics like this website never complained about any of this before until now because it happens to be on their side of the spectrum for once.

    You are right politics is everywhere always has been but try providing your opinion on say transgenderism is a mental disorder that truly compassionate people would insist should be provided mental health care to deal with and you you will be shut down banned etc for some sort of imaginary "hate" and "bigotry".

    the only real hypocrisy I see is the "faux" defense of free speech because this time you happen to agree with the content of the speech. When its some person saying I don;t want to have to have a homosexual standing next to me on the battle field your tone takes an abrupt 180 and that is the true crime being openly committed against humans rights.

    Rights are a pendulum we all deserve rights and to live the life we want and if some person might not want to live their life with "x y z" they deserve that right just as much as "x y z" deserves their rights. Its vile and dangerous to dictate to people what they must like or not like what they must endure or not.

    Your emotions end where my rights begin.

    Our society is in grave danger from the thought police , the "woke tyrants", the fanatical progressives, the manufactured SJW's and the extremist alphabet people cancel culture mob etc..... I hope this current issue with china dictating speech to people in the USa (same thing just happened with the NBA as well they reprimanded an exec who supported hong kong) will shed light to bring change about to the LARGER PROBLEM which I have identified above which is the fascism and tyranny of the progressive left fanatics.

    But sorry, this web site has historically been its own smaller version of china/blizzard fiasco and supported those same principles, how dare you point the finger and call them out for what you and blizzard and half of the dam large companies and organizations in this country have been doing for at least the last decade.
    mmolouNephethvandal5627Tykam123KaladonnManWithNoTan
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,011
    edited October 9
    https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/9/20906405/fortnite-epic-games-tim-sweeney-political-speech-china-tencent-hong-kong

    "Epic Games says it won’t ban Fortnite players for political speech"

    “Epic supports the rights of Fortnite players and creators to speak about politics and human rights,” Sweeney said on Twitter. He was responding to another user who pointed out that Epic Games is 40-percent owned by Chinese company Tencent, which also holds a small stake in Blizzard."

    “Epic is a US company and I’m the controlling shareholder,” he added. “Tencent is an approximately 40% shareholder, and there are many other shareholders including employees and investors.”

    That's interesting.
    pantaroTorvalbcbullyKaladonnOG_Zorvan
  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 302

    Elidien said:

    @BCBully



    I agree with you 100%. The issue in Hong Kong is not political, its a human rights issue. Its a repression issue. Its a continued suppression of human rights by a totalitarian regime and now that regime is demanding and asking companies to "cave" and allow them to do what they want without criticism.



    I do what I can to not support China and its regime and its continued human rights abuses.



    It may seem small and pointless to not go to an NBA game or to cancel my WOW account but at the end of the day, I am that lone gentleman standing before the tanks and Tienanmen Square doing what I can to prevent allowing such abuses to occur and making looking the other way the norm.



    I may not be able to change the world but I can change my approach. And I did.



    Playing the word game to dodge your own role. Human rights are political matter of fact they are intrinsically inseparable. when people demand chick filet a is banned from college campuses or such similar endless drivel you are doing it under the lies of human rights and politics, because the people who own that company, the people who work there and the people who enjoy the food have those same dam rights, if you don;t like the place YOU don;t go there but to try to invoke government intervention and to invoke and pressure the public is the polar opposite of everything those people are lying about when they suggest its "the reason why".
    ScotKaladonn
  • vegetableoilvegetableoil Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Amathe said:
    This is such a disappointing development for this website. I have been here since 2005 and not had to read political rants. But now this will become the soup of the day. Because that's why I come to a gaming website, right? To read politics? 

    And it's really just Blizzard bashing. Hong Kong and China have been at odds since at least 1972, and the tension really peaked in the early 2000s. I would love to read one word - one word - that the OP ever penned on that issue before this Blizzard incident. Nothing? I figured. So let's be more careful in the use of the word "hypocrisy." 
    Politics are everywhere you can't avoid it, blizzard pretty much screwed either way, if they let the champion keeps the money and the championship, they will received backlash from most people in china which is a lot of people, and they banned the champion for talking about hong kong ,they also get backlash. so yeah pretty much screwed.
    Kaladonn
  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 747
    I would say it isn't anything more than being politically correct in China. From an American viewpoint, it is way too far, but when you do business in another country, you have to take into account their laws and regulations if you want to continue to do business in that region.

    I would say if your unwillingly to support a company on a decision about this, why buy any product from China knowing they don't have the same safety, environmental, or work rights and pay fair wages. (Then again they are going to price themselves out of the market as China starts to become more environmentally friendly alone.)
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited October 9
    To be fair, the NBA absolutely DID NOT reprimand Daryl Morey. They're "apologizing" to save business and saying his words don't represent the business (I get it). They stand by his right to politely speak on OUR platforms. China knows how much business it's doing with the NBA and is using that to attempt to snuff out any sentiment against their actions. The NBA so far has shown integrity, which is why it's head and shoulders above others leagues.

    Off-topic folks who go around lumping words like "woke tyrants", "fanatical progressives", and "manufactured SJW" together are part of the problem because they're trying to discredit actual issues with extremities.
    vandal5627
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,549
    It's amazing how immature some of you people are here. It's not that you don't like "politics" it's that you don't agree with the politics of the article. The quick reaction to mention forum rules is a way to "Silence" politics you don't agree with and again, that's childish. A lot of you are in your 50s an 60s and act like you are 19. I don't understand the knee jerk reaction towards this article.. first off this is BLIZZARD..secondly, what OP wrote is actually true. The "argument" to keep politics out of x is bs.. Politics, Ethics and Morals are baked into every part of the gaming industry. Furthermore do you know what Politics are? Human Rights are not "Political" in the sense many here are using the term. This whole thing is about Human Rights.

    Stop tucking your head under the sheets because its something you don't agree with. You can choose not to participate if you so please but don't try to silence those that do wish to participate in a conversation. smh.. a lot of you cant wait to prove what side of the fence you are on.

    I find it funny that you all have no issue talking about the politics and ethics of a game like Star Citizen but the moment you see something you don't agree with, suddenly its "your opening Pandora box" or "Read the forum Rules"

    Blizzard is a giant in the gaming world, so for them to do something like this is world news. Every outlet in gaming is going to discuss it. I find it very amusing that the same people who use terms like "SJW" or "Snowflake" as weapons against people who want equality and their own spaces, are also the same people who for YEARS have been trying to turn this place into their own little safe place. The fact that someone in this thread said "Games are the only place I don't see politics" is amazingly hilarious. Even Pacman had political undertones. There isn't a MMORPG or RPG game without politics that mirror the world. It's called art. That's what its supposed to do.




    AeandermmolouXodicvandal5627cheebapantaroTorvalTykam123bcbullyIselinand 2 others.
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,968
    Politics are everywhere you can't avoid it ....
    That's a cop out.  I know what politics are. And I have enjoyed this site for nearly 15 years without having to read political rants like this one. It doesn't belong here. At least, "here" as I know it. But now the rules are forfeit and anything goes.  
    mmolouScotbcbullyKaladonn

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • vegetableoilvegetableoil Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Xodic said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/9/20906405/fortnite-epic-games-tim-sweeney-political-speech-china-tencent-hong-kong

    "Epic Games says it won’t ban Fortnite players for political speech"

    “Epic supports the rights of Fortnite players and creators to speak about politics and human rights,” Sweeney said on Twitter. He was responding to another user who pointed out that Epic Games is 40-percent owned by Chinese company Tencent, which also holds a small stake in Blizzard."

    “Epic is a US company and I’m the controlling shareholder,” he added. “Tencent is an approximately 40% shareholder, and there are many other shareholders including employees and investors.”

    That's interesting.
    Obviously Tencent is owned by south african government if you look at their biggest shareholders ;)
    OG_Zorvan
  • KothosesKothoses Member UncommonPosts: 891
    edited October 9
    Firstly I will say this.

    Good on Blitzchung for using the platform he had to take a stand.

    Now I will not however scream, shame on Blizzard for this, for one very simple reason.

    Would anyone have raised their voice in protest if they banned some one for screaming "End the occupation of the Gaza strip?", or "Give America back to the native americans?".

    Not many that's for sure.

    Now what about if they had said "Stop locking kids up on the US border?" Id say a few of you would actually be supportive of them banning the guy then.

    This is an issue because the situation in Hong Kong offends our western sensibilities, and believe me I hope the people of Hong Kong get their way.

    Should Blizz have banned him and sacked the casters? no of course not, if it was against their rules they could have just took him to one side and issued a warning. The punishment is excessive and it is obvious it is to preserve the market share they want to carve out in China.

    However, you can not say that a gaming company needs to take a stance on one political issue, without implying they need to take a stance on them all. If you think that they need to take a stance on them all, where do you fall in the ongoing issues between Israel and Palestinians, where do you fall on the UK and Ireland issues, where do you land on the forced relocation of Amazon tribes? Do they need to take a stance on these, how about the issues in Pakistan and India...

    Corporations are not people and simply put they should not be treat as such, for better or worse, they supply a product and thats it.

    Now you can call them out for betraying their core values, for excessively punishing some one or for plain and simply being in the wrong, you can tell them they had no right to punish Blitzchung, that is fine. But you can not expect a corporation of any kind to take a stance on political and moral issues, if for no other reason than they do not speak for their employees, who might have differing viewpoints.

    What you can say is that Blizzard has lost any right to claim they care about human rights, no more pride flags, no more supporting anyones rights for publicity they need to stay away from it all now.



    So I guess my TLDR is this.

    They should not have punished Blitzchung or the casters.

    They should not be expected to declare an interest either way as a corporation.  However if they choose the route of apathy, they have to apply it consistently, so now they can not fail to shut anyone down for being Anti Conservative, anti Trump, Anti Putin, Anti Johnson or anyone else if they voice an opinion live Blizz has to shut them down.

    If they don't then the rational of "Corporate neutrality" is a lie and a fallacy and they should be taken to task for it.



    I will finish by quoting Picard

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."




    Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  • jj7009jj7009 Member UncommonPosts: 213
    I don't understand how people in these comments are equating a political discussion about a regime with concentration camps for muslim minorities (where the women are routinely raped, men are reportedly used for organ havesting, and torture is common place) to something like gun control. There are politics and then genuflecting to a country that has everything in common with Stalinist russia except a it has an "open" economy, which even then is so heavily regulated it's hard to call it that. I just see a bunch of children with no backbone more obsessed with a gotcha (NO POLITICS REEEEEEEEE) than addressing what should be a bipartisan issue of an american country saying it will "Protect the pride of the mother country" (Blizzard us CS rep said this on twitter word for word) and banning a person seeking freedom and basic human rights for his people HK which were handed over to china, promised a say (Which they were denied nearly immediatly because china chooses every single representative and the only ones who can vote on new representatives are china's hand picked puppets.) I can understand not wanting to discuss gun control, immigration, or gender politics, but when you bend over backwords to excuse or avoid the topic of an EVIL regime I have a hard time seeing you as anything armchair philosophers with no morals or values. If you can honestly excuse blizzard for what it did (money over human rights) i see no difference between you and the german citizens who looked the otherway when it came to the treatment of jews during WW2.
    HashbrickTuor7
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited October 9
    klash2def said:
    It's amazing how immature some of you people are here. It's not that you don't like "politics" it's that you don't agree with the politics of the article. The quick reaction to mention forum rules is a way to "Silence" politics you don't agree with and again, that's childish. A lot of you are in your 50s an 60s and act like you are 19. I don't understand the knee jerk reaction towards this article.. first off this is BLIZZARD..secondly, what OP wrote is actually true. The "argument" to keep politics out of x is bs.. Politics, Ethics and Morals are baked into every part of the gaming industry. Furthermore do you know what Politics are? Human Rights are not "Political" in the sense many here are using the term. This whole thing is about Human Rights.

    Stop tucking your head under the sheets because its something you don't agree with. You can choose not to participate if you so please but don't try to silence those that do wish to participate in a conversation. smh.. a lot of you cant wait to prove what side of the fence you are on.

    I find it funny that you all have no issue talking about the politics and ethics of a game like Star Citizen but the moment you see something you don't agree with, suddenly its "your opening Pandora box" or "Read the forum Rules"

    Blizzard is a giant in the gaming world, so for them to do something like this is world news. Every outlet in gaming is going to discuss it. I find it very amusing that the same people who use terms like "SJW" or "Snowflake" as weapons against people who want equality and their own spaces, are also the same people who for YEARS have been trying to turn this place into their own little safe place. The fact that someone in this thread said "Games are the only place I don't see politics" is amazingly hilarious. Even Pacman had political undertones. There isn't a MMORPG or RPG game without politics that mirror the world. It's called art. That's what its supposed to do.




    Big facts, but it's just our history repeating itself because people get to lie and gloss over or forget the past. They said the same things about Muhammad Ali, Bob Marley, the hippie movement, and others. Now in hindsight the same people who were spitting and cursing at all that are acting like it was all peaches and cream.

    To top that all off we have people on the opposite end of the spectrum now taking their personal/HR issues and trying to make them into national movements or piggy backing actual issues. All that's doing is further inciting the ninnies on the other side because they get to lump all of it together under their FOTM words and memes as well.

    Bottom line is, we ALL need to stop playing this RED/BLUE, SHIRTS/SKINS game because the game/rivalry of it, is taking away from common sense. People can't even see when someone is doing something blatantly wrong or against OUR rules because of "sides".

    We should be asking ourselves simple questions, and giving simple answers and sticking to what we believe in regardless of if someone we like/don't like benefits from our stance.

    TL;DR

    The big question we all need to ask ourselves is this;

    Do you believe an outside country (especially one whose philosophy is opposite of your country) should be able to squash an individuals stance in their own country through corporate leverage/pressure. Is that a precedent you're OK with?

    Regardless of your answer, STAND FIRM and don't switch up your stance because it's someone/something you don't like. That's what integrity is.
    Post edited by FlyByKnight on
    klash2defjj7009vandal5627cheebabcbullyTuor7OG_Zorvan
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • ohioastroohioastro Member UncommonPosts: 520
    I actually believe that having a "gray zone" where everything isn't filtered through a political lens is incredibly important.  The problem to me isn't a "no politics" rule - there are absolutely ways to leave it out of many things.  The problem is that the penalties are out of proportion and are applied unevenly.  Putting official broadcasts on a delay and not transmitting "out of scope" segments, whatever they reference, is not the same as a one year ban and a groveling apology.

    What Blizzard did was to enforce the rules of a dictatorship globally, and there is just no way that people in democracies will ever accept that. This is an issue that crosses the usual political lines.  (And, no, I don't like de-platforming people in general.  But I'm fine with time-and=place arguments about what sort of things are appropriate to talk about.)
  • vegetableoilvegetableoil Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Amathe said:
    Politics are everywhere you can't avoid it ....
    That's a cop out.  I know what politics are. And I have enjoyed this site for nearly 15 years without having to read political rants like this one. It doesn't belong here. At least, "here" as I know it. But now the rules are forfeit and anything goes.  
    Like I said before, you can't force people not to talk about it, my suggestion would be to not read or comment on this site for a couple of days until it cools down. I would probably do the same.
  • jj7009jj7009 Member UncommonPosts: 213
    klash2def said:
    It's amazing how immature some of you people are here. It's not that you don't like "politics" it's that you don't agree with the politics of the article. The quick reaction to mention forum rules is a way to "Silence" politics you don't agree with and again, that's childish. A lot of you are in your 50s an 60s and act like you are 19. I don't understand the knee jerk reaction towards this article.. first off this is BLIZZARD..secondly, what OP wrote is actually true. The "argument" to keep politics out of x is bs.. Politics, Ethics and Morals are baked into every part of the gaming industry. Furthermore do you know what Politics are? Human Rights are not "Political" in the sense many here are using the term. This whole thing is about Human Rights.

    Stop tucking your head under the sheets because its something you don't agree with. You can choose not to participate if you so please but don't try to silence those that do wish to participate in a conversation. smh.. a lot of you cant wait to prove what side of the fence you are on.

    I find it funny that you all have no issue talking about the politics and ethics of a game like Star Citizen but the moment you see something you don't agree with, suddenly its "your opening Pandora box" or "Read the forum Rules"

    Blizzard is a giant in the gaming world, so for them to do something like this is world news. Every outlet in gaming is going to discuss it. I find it very amusing that the same people who use terms like "SJW" or "Snowflake" as weapons against people who want equality and their own spaces, are also the same people who for YEARS have been trying to turn this place into their own little safe place. The fact that someone in this thread said "Games are the only place I don't see politics" is amazingly hilarious. Even Pacman had political undertones. There isn't a MMORPG or RPG game without politics that mirror the world. It's called art. That's what its supposed to do.




    This isn't even politics. This is basic human rights. I'm someone who thinks that Wolfenstein 2 was marred by "politics" (Aka you kissed a black girl so know im going to suplex your mom, piledrive yoru dog and then make you shoot it. And then somehow say communist are ok because they helped with the nazis (even though they are responsible for more attrocities)). 

    However this is not an issue that can be glossed over, this is something that hsould be discussed and demonized. This isn't an issue where any one can go "hurr durr keep your politics out of my games" this is an issue where if you aren't on one side you are supporting a totalitarian regime that makes dissenters disappear and puts relegious non conformers in Concentration camps.

    And if you want to look at this from a game perspective. If we don't address this now, 2-3 years from now you can possibly be banned from wow, Fortnite, lol, for saying Taiwan and not chinese taipei. Or saying "No china not number 1" This is one situation where "no politics" is not the hill to die on.
    bcbullyTuor7
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,290
    To that end, “keep politics out of X,” is a complete non-argument. We are surrounded by politics. Politics are baked into everything we do because politics inform everything we do. It is literally impossible to keep politics out of anything. “Keep politics out of X,” is a completely stupid argument with no basis in reality.

    Yet here I am, with a 20 years of ..experience by playing online games, from which very, very rarely I was in a situation to discuss politics/religion/etc. with other players. Arguing that we no longer can stay away from politics in our ENTERTAINMENT category, shows how wrong you are. 

    We can definitely keep politics out of games, the same way sport ( almost any of them ), keep politics/religion/etc out of their 'fields'. Companies all over the world who respect them self, are having a similar approach with their employees, yet somehow.. we can no longer do that?!

    Next time when you break the rules from a contract, for X reasons, be it "freedom of speech", politics, or you don't like Y face within the company, come back here, and tell us how that goes, ok? Wait, you never did that, but you are here telling us how someone breaking the rules IS fine, as long as.."freedom of speech", am I right? You don't have freedom of speech when you are bound to a contract where clearly says "don't sht on our image by calling out (groups of) other people". 

    You sign the contract, you respect the contract. You want it to "break" it by supporting your case? Is fine, do it. Do I support your cause? Yes ( regarding the Hong Kong guy ) , but support the consequences of your actions. Everything you do in life ( at least this big ) have consequences. Live with them if you want your voice and your cause to be heard.



    mmolouTykam123

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,104
    The basic premise of the article is wrong. Not everything is political. In fact, most things are not political and should not be political. That many things will offend someone does not mean that they are political. Yelling racial slurs at someone absolutely is offensive and reprehensible, but it's not political.

    There are some zealots who see everything in terms of politics and want to make everything political. Such people are obnoxious, regardless of which side they are on politically. They will to their best to wreck all that they touch, because politics ruins everything.

    I'm not arguing that politics shouldn't be allowed anywhere. There absolutely is a time and a place for politics. But there is a time and a place not to have politics.

    It is completely legitimate for an organization to openly allow political statements. It is even legitimate for them to explicitly take sides politically, and make it permissible to express opinions on one side of political spectrum and not the other. If they do that, they really should be willing to admit to being effectively part of their chosen political movement or whatever. Plenty of media sources are in practice an arm of one political party or another, even if they won't admit to it.

    But it is also perfectly legitimate for an organization to disallow political statements unequivocally, provided that they enforce that ban evenhandedly. You can't ban statements on one side of an issue under a "no politics" rule, while allowing the other side to say whatever they want. Or perhaps rather, you can, but that makes you effectively an arm of one political movement or another.

    In the case of this site, the "no politics" rule was intended to make this a site where people who like MMORPGs can come and read about the latest MMORPGs and discuss them on the forums. It was supposed to be, and has been, a site where people read about MMORPGs and be members of the community regardless of their views on politics, or for that matter, religion.

    The site has traditionally allowed some leeway on politics when there is a clear connection to gaming. For example, if there is a proposed law that would regulate or ban loot boxes, the thread is somewhat political, but ultimately about gaming and within the scope of the site. Also importantly, because it does not play into hardened political lines like some of the long-debated issues, it is much less likely to turn into a flame war than many other political topics would.

    The reason that so many sites have a "no politics" rule is that not having it wrecks the site, or at least the forum or comment section. If every thread turns into a flame war over abortion, guns, or who should be allowed to use which bathroom, then you would no longer have a site about MMORPGs, but only a rather bad site about politics. Sometimes it results in a site where one political side dominates and nearly everyone on the other side leaves. At that point, you wouldn't have a site for people who like MMORPGs, but only one for the subset of people who like MMORPGs and also share some particular political views. That's a rather narrower audience, regardless of which political views dominate.
    mmolouScot
  • jj7009jj7009 Member UncommonPosts: 213
    IceAge said:
    To that end, “keep politics out of X,” is a complete non-argument. We are surrounded by politics. Politics are baked into everything we do because politics inform everything we do. It is literally impossible to keep politics out of anything. “Keep politics out of X,” is a completely stupid argument with no basis in reality.

    Yet here I am, with a 20 years of ..experience by playing online games, from which very, very rarely I was in a situation to discuss politics/religion/etc. with other players. Arguing that we no longer can stay away from politics in our ENTERTAINMENT category, shows how wrong you are. 

    We can definitely keep politics out of games, the same way sport ( almost any of them ), keep politics/religion/etc out of their 'fields'. Companies all over the world who respect them self, are having a similar approach with their employees, yet somehow.. we can no longer do that?!

    Next time when you break the rules from a contract, for X reasons, be it "freedom of speech", politics, or you don't like Y face within the company, come back here, and tell us how that goes, ok? Wait, you never did that, but you are here telling us how someone breaking the rules IS fine, as long as.."freedom of speech", am I right? You don't have freedom of speech when you are bound to a contract where clearly says "don't sht on our image by calling out (groups of) other people". 

    You sign the contract, you respect the contract. You want it to "break" it by supporting your case? Is fine, do it. Do I support your cause? Yes ( regarding the Hong Kong guy ) , but support the consequences of your actions. Everything you do in life ( at least this big ) have consequences. Live with them if you want your voice and your cause to be heard.



    "Sign a contract" Implying a TOS has the legal binding of a contract. PFFFFFFT ok guy let me inform you of something, the us legal system (and in some cases the eu legal system) wipes its ass with TOS. You cannot sign away a human right or legal right to access a product you have legally acquired. You know how every TOS says "You agree that in the event of a legal dispute you waive your right to court and agree to third party arbitration by an arbitrator of (Insert dev/publisher name)'s choosing." Guess how often that is upheld? Never.  
    OG_Zorvan
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,762
    Great artictle Poorna. I was a little concerned you would turn the heat down for this site, but you've remained true. I appreciate that.

    @lotrlore I get why the rule has been in place too. Most of those that are complaining the loudest in this thread about that are those who constantly inject their own political agendas into every thread they can. They also aren't used to hearing a morally opinionated article here on the site. My guess based on ~15 years history here is that they'll use this as an excuse to begin pushing those more aggressively. The standing rule helped the site clamp down on that while retaining the appearance of impartiality. I would like more open civil and thoughtful discussion in this area, but I also think it's going to be a touch row to hoe for you. I hope you can pull it off because the site discussions could be better for it.
    jj7009XodicTacticalZombeh
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,104
    lotrlore said:

    As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refresh. I understand the spirit of the way it's written - religion and politics are dumpster fire subjects that can devolve from thoughtful discussion to outright rage induced baiting - but I don't think we can avoid these discussion. Now I think if it's no longer a discussion, but rather something that has turned from thoughtful speech to hate speech we'll have a problem. But it might be time to revisit these guidelines as the industry itself has changed so much.
    The problem with saying that politics is allowed if it is thoughtful speech but not if it is hate speech is that there is no clear line between them, but only one person's opinion or another.  There is no principled definition of hate speech beyond that it is speech that the person labeling it as such really hates.  Everyone has his own personal biases, and is far more likely to thing that views that disagree with his own have crossed the line than those that he agrees with.

    I can understand allowing semi-political discussions that are related to gaming to continue for as long as everyone remains civil.  But once it turns into a flame war, the key thing is to lock the topic and move on.  Don't ban the people you disagree with, while allowing those you agree with a free pass, as is likely to happen if you try to only sanction those who you think went too far.  That's how to make a site into a fairly explicitly political one and wreck most of what has ever been good about the site.

    So long as there is a "no politics" rule, there is a principled line to draw:  whoever introduced politics into the thread without a gaming link is the culprit.  But without that, your options are to either let political flame wars rage or else in practice enforce conformity to one political ideology over another even if you don't intend to.
    mmolouScot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    edited October 9
    "To that end, “keep politics out of X,” is a complete non-argument. We are surrounded by politics. Politics are baked into everything we do because politics inform everything we do. It is literally impossible to keep politics out of anything. “Keep politics out of X,” is a completely stupid argument with no basis in reality."

    Poorna, the reason we can't keep politics out of anything is that people like yourself are so keen to put it in everything. I don't know you personally but I do know that nearly everyone who partakes in some form of journalism feels the peer pressure to comment on political issues. To a lesser extent everyone on social media does as well, twisting our arms to comment on everything.

    You, a staff member have decided to speak out about this issue regardless of the sites own rules because you know you are right. You speak to us from a moral high ground that you think allows you to make up the rules as you go along. Because nothing is more important than the cause, the campaign, the issue. As you might have guessed I dispute you are on the moral high ground. I think you have fallen for the fallacy that so many fall for today, that any behaviour is permissible as long as a cause is involved.

    As to the specific issue, even if I thought Blizzard were totally in the wrong I would still see your piece as inappropriate for this site, this is a gaming site, we discuss games not the latest political drama on Twitter or Reddit. I have done posts myself because I hoped to give some perspective to threads which should have been shunted to off topic under your own rules or more aptly been deleted.

    There is only one way Blizzard could be in the wrong here and that is if they do not normally uphold the policy of no politics on their channel. It seems they do as I keep asking for examples of them not doing so and see no evidence put forward. Therefore they have nothing to answer for.

    There is nothing wrong with your passion and the forthright statement of your position, but surely Twitter and so on are enough for you? Must every venue for discussion, every meeting place be the soap box for our political opinions? It is the current generation that decided they must vomit every thought, every emotion they have over everyone else. Do not be surprised that some of use don't want to hear it. Aside from this your articles have been very welcome, keep them coming.

    P.S I note from another post, that having had the guidelines on politics pointed out to them they are now thinking of changing the guidelines. I assume the staff will then have to decided on what is "permissible" politics on here and what is not. Good luck with that!
    mmolouIceAgeXarkoQuizzicalTykam123bcbullyKaladonnQuarterStackuriel_mafess

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