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How quirky will you be willing to put up with ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
Someone mentioned Project Gorgon..... This stopped me in my tracks, and got me thinking deeply of how much people will put up with on a unique and quirky level if Pantheon were made the same.


I argued with most everyone about Pantheon being niche.  I now agree.  Not because of First generation development, but because of uniqueness. 

I'm not expecting anything about Pantheon being standard.  I rationalize Brad and Visionary Realms as being completely self thinkers. Almost like they haven't played any other video games but their own.


A "Non-Everquest 1 player" will have to forget everything they know about standard video game play other than W,S,Y,D movement. They will have to understand leaving the confines of a safe zone WILL BE INSTANT DEATH unless they take certain precautions. After several attempts they'll have no choice but to ask questions. They will wonder why NPC's will not talk to them, or where do abilities come from, again they will have to ask. 

I'm expecting Pantheon will be very hard in every aspect....... It will fit the player that finds a struggle to get anything done intriguing.
I will say, most want simple enjoyment, but intriguing players will be millions too !  

If Pantheon is successful, many articles and how to play Youtubes will be made.  Experts and fanatics will show us what they know.
This game will need it's own encyclopedia.... This is why it's taking so long.

Let them work ! 


Their's a fine line between "Buggy and Quirky"...... Buggy is negative and can ruin a game.       

Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,322
    edited October 2019

    Players have been led down a path over nearly the last twenty years to expect everything about a game to be spoon fed to them. They expect the game play of every MMO to be the same, every RPG to be the same and so on. At least sufficiently so that they do not have to read anything about the game before they start. Delete is making Pantheon sound a little like Dark Souls, not sure how true that is but it does sound like you are going to not be able to just jump in.

    We have a hobby that is now tailored to the most casual gaming possible, so Pantheon does not sound like it will go down well with them. But I have to ask, do we need them? Did Dark Souls need the casuals who whinged on about how hard it was? I don’t really see Pantheon as a DS equivalent for MMOs, but casuals will complain about even the tiniest amount inconvenience to their “fun”. Like too much travelling, you can put them on a horse galloping through beautiful countryside and they complain.

    You can’t have any depth of play, grouping, lore or anything else other then the immediate experience of fun with such players, so I ask again do we need them? I think you know what my reply would be. :)

    P.S Is that me in DMKano's picture above, looking down at the crap on the floor that now passes for most modern MMOs and then up at where we used to be in old school? ;)

    delete5230KyleranNycteliosXodicFangrim

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    I dunno. A more challenging or difficult MMORPG probably would be welcomed by a decent size player base.

    That said, if said "difficulty" is largely due to players having to wrestle with awkward UI or poorly explained or understood mechanics (see EVE) then not so much.

    Watched the COE "parkour" video of what they called their Silver Mine "tutorial" dungeon.  (Stay with me here)

    The narrator was explaining why certain "help aids" were so obvious and in one example he said, "as it turns out we found if players don't know they can (and have to) backflip off of a ledge most won't think to even try."

    Which was surprisingly thoughtful really, developers do well to provide enough information in game that players know how to "find the fun" or many will never experience what is available.

    CCP well understands how many players they lose because of this hence they rework the tutorials and new player experience regularly.(perhaps to little avail)

    Difficulty may be sought after, complexity less so I'm thinking.


    MendelNycteliosgervaise1bcbullyScot

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,903
    edited October 2019
    Kyleran said:
    I dunno. A more challenging or difficult MMORPG probably would be welcomed by a decent size player base.

    That said, if said "difficulty" is largely due to players having to wrestle with awkward UI or poorly explained or understood mechanics (see EVE) then not so much.

    Watched the COE "parkour" video of what they called their Silver Mine "tutorial" dungeon.  (Stay with me here)

    The narrator was explaining why certain "help aids" were so obvious and in one example he said, "as it turns out we found if players don't know they can (and have to) backflip off of a ledge most won't think to even try."

    Which was surprisingly thoughtful really, developers do well to provide enough information in game that players know how to "find the fun" or many will never experience what is available.

    CCP well understands how many players they lose because of this hence they rework the tutorials and new player experience regularly.(perhaps to little avail)

    Difficulty may be sought after, complexity less so I'm thinking.


    Maybe next time, CCP will make the UI size adjustable instead of reworking the tutorial.  The game scales nicely to 1920x, everything except the UI elements.  If I could see those without having to strain my eyes, I'd probably be tempted to play a bit more.  Complexity doesn't scare me.

    Edit to add:  Oh, this is a delete topic.  Has anyone deciphered the topic yet?



    Kyleran

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,381
    Mendel said:

    Edit to add:  Oh, this is a delete topic.  Has anyone deciphered the topic yet?



    The search continues. 

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  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,817
    AA pre 1.0 was absurdly less hand holding than many mmos I've played and I absolutely loved... then they "change for western audiences"... sigh.

    As I said before, and many said before me, there is space in the market for a niche experience if you adjust your scope to it and be realistic about your future gains.
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  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 406
    My fear is that VR bends to the cries of the masses before the masses leave for the next best thing.  

    I fear they (VR) will then make changes to the game to appease the masses of filthy casuals and the game will no longer be enjoyable to lovers of the original and no longer be played by the masses who cried for change and then it will be another example of a game trying to please too many but fails to please any.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,903
    Geeky said:
    My fear is that VR bends to the cries of the masses before the masses leave for the next best thing.  

    I fear they (VR) will then make changes to the game to appease the masses of filthy casuals and the game will no longer be enjoyable to lovers of the original and no longer be played by the masses who cried for change and then it will be another example of a game trying to please too many but fails to please any.
    I don't see that as a problem.  Changes take a long time, so they aren't likely to release something and change it to accommodate anyone.  The bigger danger is the initial crowd will move away before they have time to adjust anything.  So, if VR is planning a change, there would already been sights and hints of that already happening.

    Brad seems to be stubborn.  In this case, it's a good thing.  I don't doubt that he will produce a game, but I don't see anyone other than Brad having any significant input into its design.  Who in VR is going to tell Brad "That's no good" or "That isn't going to work"?  I certainly don't see anyone who will veto Brad's vision.  His game will probably delight fans of the 1999-2000 version of EQ1.  I hope there's enough of that crowd around to survive long-term.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,381
    I don't think Brad is looking to make a game that is "hard."

    I think he is looking to make a game that is "challenging," and there is more than one way to do that.

    For example, a quest can be challenging because there are things you have to figure out, or difficult enemies to defeat along the way, or by something you have to discern through the perception system, and so on.

    I don't think there will be a lot of straight up camp rare spawn for 2 days, kill spawn, and then turn dropped item into quest giver. I expect this game will be a bit more cerebral with less emphasis on time spent waiting. 

    But hey, Brad doesn't run stuff by me lol. I just read what he says.
    KyleranNycteliosdelete5230

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    Self thinker



    Not a self thinker



    Who wins?
    Scot
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  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,672
    edited October 2019
    what is the point of perma anything if there is no pvp. I don't call sitting in a village and working on crafting the best gear possible to go fight a monster "hard" it is just a another  time sink. 

    The problem with old school traditionalist in the 21st century gaming, is very basic. It is old, boring. 

    Someone is like "we sit arround and communicate while we mnan wait" hello, ever heard of VOIP, it was an invention by some nerd who decided waiting for mana  regen was a waste of time.

    THe other part is perma what ? how obnoxious is that, who wants to traverse for hours to a desolate location to be defeated and reroll, maybe, 20 -100 people. 

    Kyleran
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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,138
    Bottom line, honest to goodness opinion about what I expect from Pantheon....

    EverQuest 2.0 like it was meant to be, except don't tell Brad I said this because it's NOT a spiritual successor.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    Iselin said:
    Self thinker



    Not a self thinker



    Who wins?
    Jean Luc Picard of course.

     ;) 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,381
    Iselin said:
    Self thinker



    Not a self thinker



    Who wins?
    My money is on the strangely hot Borg lady.
    Iselin

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,322
    edited October 2019
    Amathe said:
    Iselin said:
    Self thinker



    Not a self thinker



    Who wins?
    My money is on the strangely hot Borg lady.
    My money is on the chimp, they evolve; the Borg think they have reached perfection and don't. They are good at assimilating the technology of other peoples though, a bit like the Chinese. :)

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    Gorgon was not quirky,it was bad because it looked bad and nothing was ever polished and combat was very much handcuffed.
    I expect nothing unique from Pantheon and sadly that is not a selling point for me because i don't like same old new skin.
    "Self thinkers"
    Well seeing what he did in the past i would say perhaps but not with Vanguard,that was same old new skin.
    The oddity was EQ2 being exactly the same as Wow,which really has always baffled me.So i assume the Blizz people were in on the idea and copied the same template for Wow.
    Then we need to only realize that Brad was not there anymore,his idea was EQ1 but then we saw EQ2 again within Vanguard.

    So what exactly happened there?I can only assume Brad was still there in the early iteration of Eq2.Then i have to wonder WHY the hell he or the SOE team thought it a good idea to stick yellow markers over npc heads to string you into linear hand held game play.

    Then seeing that EQ2 was not accepted at all was even more baffling because the very next week Wow the EXACT same game was selling millions..lol.So did Brad see Wow and think ok this idea is a good seller it just isn't with SOE?

    My thoughts,he saw Wow,thought ..$$$$,his VG would look better than Wow,offer a couple unique ideas and be an easy seller.So where does this lead me ,well instead of being a free thinker,he was seeing ..$$$$$.

    So fast forward ,what do they see,they see a EQ1 crowd that wants in>>>$$$$$.So expect the obvious,nothing exciting or new incoming,same old new skin.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,876
    KyleranScot
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  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    No to unexplained insta-deaths.  The game should always say what is going on.

    As far as quirky goes, Im ok with it so long as the quirk does not limit combat choices to "always use this, never that".  If you have put a skill in game it should have a legitimate use.
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