I have riddle related to mmorpgs, please help

delete5230

I decided to simplify this riddle,

 If first and second generations are no longer being made. And production of such had abruptly stopped over 10 years ago for no reason…. How can they be charted as being bad design by developers. 

After all  theirs documented proof they were gaining momentum.  How do you chart something that no longer exist ? 

You cant used old games for example, they are old and dated.

I'll simplify the riddle:
If their were apples and everyone liked them, but they disappeared and replaced by bananas. 
What was wrong with apples ? 
How can researchers say, no one likes apples if they no longer exist !


 

TheDarkrayne

Maurgrim

I like pies.

delete5230

Maurgrim said:

I like pies.

If you had two pies and gave one to me,  how many pies would you have for yourself ?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

delete5230

blueturtle13 said:

Maurgrim said:

I like pies.

Agreed. Pies have gotten a bad rep in recent years as the cake has climbed the dessert ladder hierarchy.


      

Have data to back that up.... An can I have your stuff ?

Vrika

delete5230 said:

 If first and second generations are no longer being made. And production of such had abruptly stopped over 10 years ago for no reason…. How can they be charted as being bad design by developers. 

After all  theirs documented proof they were gaining momentum.  How do you chart something that no longer exist ? 

You cant used old games for example, they are old and dated.

You're not an exception. If the no-one can know how good it would be, then also you and all the fans have no knowledge of how good it would be.

It's illogical for you to wish something with no knowledge whether it's good or bad.

Po_gg

blueturtle13 said:

Maurgrim said:

I like pies.

Agreed. Pies have gotten a bad rep in recent years as the cake has climbed the dessert ladder hierarchy.

Which is weird, considering the cake is a lie, while a pie never lies.

For delete's OP I can't really say anything constructive, since I believe the premise is wrong, and with it the conclusion too. If something is discontinued, it doesn't turn it bad automatically overnight. There can be a lot of reasons for it, and only one of those is "bad design".

ed: and the "riddle" was already changed aka. simplified... it turns my post even more irrelevant.

Does it turn the post a bad one? Not necessarily.

Kyleran

Forget the stupid apples already, let's use a more realistic example.

Back.in the 50s and 60s western movies and TV shows were very popular, and while one is occasionally made now and then its doubtful you could convince investors or a studio to throw in $350 million to create a new AAA western....well unless it had some Marvel superheroes in it.

The mass audience's tastes change for "reasons" which marketing analysts collect tons of data on trying to leverage it to making future products successful.

If some indie studio or network manages to accidently create a blockbuster western show or movie I'm sure we'll see resurgence. 

Same thing for old school MMORPG designs.

Asheram

Kyleran said:

Forget the stupid apples already, let's use a more realistic example.

Back.in the 50s and 60s western movies and TV shows were very popular, and while one is occasionally made now and then its doubtful you could convince investors or a studio to throw in $350 million to create a new AAA western....well unless it had some Marvel superheroes in it.

The mass audience's tastes change for "reasons" which marketing analysts collect tons of data on trying to leverage it to making future products successful.

If some indie studio or network manages to accidently create a blockbuster western show or movie I'm sure we'll see resurgence. 

Same thing for old school MMORPG designs.

Slow West 
Deadwood show & movie
The Ballad of Buster Scruggs
The Salvation
Hostiles
The Ballad of Lefty Brown
Sweet Country
The Duel
The Hateful Eight
Django Unchained
The Revenant
Hell on Wheels

All really good westerns imho

Quizzical

delete5230 said:

Maurgrim said:

I like pies.

If you had two pies and gave one to me,  how many pies would you have for yourself ?

Two, because you would reject it as not being the pie that you wanted.

crankked

I don't know why you guys even entertain the ramblings of the OP anymore.  You all should just leave every thread Delete makes empty of responses......

delete5230

DMKano said:

delete5230 said:

I'll simplify the riddle:
If their were apples and everyone liked them, but they disappeared and replaced by bananas. 
What was wrong with apples ? 
How can researchers say, no one likes apples if they no longer exist !


 

You've posted this apple thing before - so this is not even new material.

But again in case of video games the apple didnt just disappear.

Over time as more and more players joined they started asking for bananas - and soon the apple lovers found themselves a minority .

There was never anything wrong with apples, nor bananas- but when you spend 100million dollars to make a game you sure are going to listen to majority over minority- that's why we have bananas today.

This didnt happen over night - it took years for MMOs to shift into what they are today


When a product is designed to cater to masses - and your preferences dont match the masses - you are going to be in for a rude awakening 

The research doesnt say no one likes apples, the research says apple lovers are no longer important for the bottom line.

What a bunch of crap !
"Over time as more and more joined they started asking for more bananas"

Where this you pull this bullshit from, out of your hat ?
From a few mothers calling Blizzard, complaining little Johnny finds the game too hard ?

I'll repeat the OP,
mmorpgs were gaining momentum.... World of Warcraft took the world by storm. EVERYONE WAS LOOKING FOR WHAT COMES NEXT !


*** instead, everything changed****
Please don't ignore this statement like so many people do ! 


*** how can people ask for something not yet invented***
Please don't ignore this !

Scot

Well players are getting some of the old apples with the classics, depending on the game as some classics have more resemblance to the original games than others. I do agree that no new apple MMOs coming out makes it a very hard comparison though. The success of classic shows there is still a marketplace for apples, but I don't think the gaming companies (grocers) are going to stop selling us Kano's bananas and switch back to apples. 

What I think they will do is try to sell us both for as long as they can. I had hoped that classic would make developers look again at hybrid playstyles between the old and new fruit. But apart from some comments from some developers that they will there has been no evidence they are actually doing so.

There, I hope everyone is happy with their fruit and if not I recommend a diet of solo ready meals.

delete5230

DMKano said:

delete5230 said:

DMKano said:

delete5230 said:

I'll simplify the riddle:
If their were apples and everyone liked them, but they disappeared and replaced by bananas. 
What was wrong with apples ? 
How can researchers say, no one likes apples if they no longer exist !


 

You've posted this apple thing before - so this is not even new material.

But again in case of video games the apple didnt just disappear.

Over time as more and more players joined they started asking for bananas - and soon the apple lovers found themselves a minority .

There was never anything wrong with apples, nor bananas- but when you spend 100million dollars to make a game you sure are going to listen to majority over minority- that's why we have bananas today.

This didnt happen over night - it took years for MMOs to shift into what they are today


When a product is designed to cater to masses - and your preferences dont match the masses - you are going to be in for a rude awakening 

The research doesnt say no one likes apples, the research says apple lovers are no longer important for the bottom line.

What a bunch of crap !
"Over time as more and more joined they started asking for more bananas"

Where this you pull this bullshit from, out of your hat ?
From a few mothers calling Blizzard, complaining little Johnny finds the game too hard ?

I'll repeat the OP,
mmorpgs were gaining momentum.... World of Warcraft took the world by storm. EVERYONE WAS LOOKING FOR WHAT COMES NEXT !


*** instead, everything changed****
Please don't ignore this statement like so many people do ! 


*** how can people ask for something not yet invented***
Please don't ignore this !

Sheesh, you ok there?

WoW took the world by storm by offering a much more casual experience. What also helped is that it was well polished and ran smooth on lower end PCs - so just about anyone could play it.

It was also made by a loved and well trusted company. 

You say everything changed - of course - that is exactly what happens - change. As mmorpg became mainstream- the majority of playerbase was very different than the original lovable geeks that played gen1 mmorpgs.

When wow grew from 4 to 12 million players - majority wanted less time wasting and more access to immediate action - so devs gave them what they wanted and "casualised" the game even more.

WoW also affected other games in terms of revenue loss due to players leaving - free to play models with cash shop became more popular as other companies were trying to survive and compete in a more crowded mmo market.

Many other companies tried copying WoWs model and features to lesser degrees of success.

In times of change - new methods and models get invented, that's what happens naturally. 

You see your riddle is not based in reality at all - all the changes that happened in mmo market are normal things that happen when you have a rapidly growing market with lots if competition and lots of money to be made.

The problem is you have this conspiracy mindset - but there is no conspiracy here. It's all about money,and the old fashioned capitalism - video game business is still a business.

More companies tried following designed and failed because they did it by using Third generation, so it didn't really follow World of Warcraft..... It simply decided to cash in on the money they were making ONLY.

World of Warcraft is failing because of its change to Third Generation... Classic is proving that as we speak.

Unfortunately it will not last because it's using "a nostalgia copy to prove it".

Aethaeryn

Two words:  Gros Michel

Also fake apple flavour doesn't taste like apple. . think about it.

delete5230

Aethaeryn said:

Two words:  Gros Michel

Also fake apple flavour doesn't taste like apple. . think about it.

 I guess their better at least according to this guy.... he says he's now a happy person for what ever odd reason because of bananas ?

Kyleran

Asheram said:

Kyleran said:

Forget the stupid apples already, let's use a more realistic example.

Back.in the 50s and 60s western movies and TV shows were very popular, and while one is occasionally made now and then its doubtful you could convince investors or a studio to throw in $350 million to create a new AAA western....well unless it had some Marvel superheroes in it.

The mass audience's tastes change for "reasons" which marketing analysts collect tons of data on trying to leverage it to making future products successful.

If some indie studio or network manages to accidently create a blockbuster western show or movie I'm sure we'll see resurgence. 

Same thing for old school MMORPG designs.

Slow West 
Deadwood show & movie
The Ballad of Buster Scruggs
The Salvation
Hostiles
The Ballad of Lefty Brown
Sweet Country
The Duel
The Hateful Eight
Django Unchained
The Revenant
Hell on Wheels

All really good westerns imho

All just mostly average, (The Hateful Hate? For real? Just horrible) not one holds a candle to



Its OK, likely you missed most of the great old school westerns, as even this one came in at the very tail end of the era and wasn't all that well received by the masses. 

Personal taste differences aside, my guess is most off of those new titles combined together have lower box office numbers than Avengers Endgame, (or Frozen even) which is why Westerns aren't made more often and with bigger budgets. 

We are getting lost in the weeds, time to return to the topic at hand.

I was just trying to answer the OP without using silly (IMO) fruit analogies, not debate the current popularity of film genres.

BTW, the best fruit pie is clearly cherry, what's wrong with some of you people?

Amaranthar

OP, you should have used Gros Michel bananas vs. Cavendish bananas as your example. 
You are talking about the evolution of Level Grind games.

So your "first and second generation games" is all wrong. 

Here's the way I think the terms makes more sense. 

> The true first generation games were UO and AC. 

> The second generation started with EQ, and can best be described as Dungeons and Dragons design at it's core. 
This style of gaming is all about levelling in the same manner as D&D, where the power gaps grow so much that beginner, and eventually lower level, content becomes so easy that it's useless. 
These second generation games have evolved into what is now thought of as "WoW clones." 

> Then there's the other games, usually some mix of the above. Star Wars Galaxies is one of these. It has the Sandbox feel, but it's use of levelling is easily seen in the HP and Damage ranges. I didn't play it for long, and I'm not sure how they disguised the levelling into the Sandbox feel, which seems to me to be more of a mirage. 
Of course, when you use "Trees", players tend to think that it's something different than levels. But it's not, really. It's just a different form that does the same thing, with choices. 

What you are really talking about is:
The first and second EVOLUTION OF LEVELLING GAMES. 

Scot

DMKano was right there, but I don't think he will agree with what I have to say about the consequences. WoW brought MMORPG's into the mainstream, but in many ways we were better off not in the mainstream. WoW marked the beginning of everything the mainstream wanted, from a MMO that you could solo to top level to leaving out anything not seen as essential by the mainstream, like housing which became a "maybe if ever" update.

It is not that I think going mainstream gave us nothing it gave us better graphics and voice acting but gameplay wise it did much more harm than good.

ChildoftheShadows

Aethaeryn said:

Two words:  Gros Michel

Also fake apple flavour doesn't taste like apple. . think about it.

I don’t know man, mock apple pie is pretty damn amazing. 

Wizardry

No riddles or secrets,you just have to understand the big picture which is very easy.

99% of the time these are not dev teams thinking...hey let's build a great game.
Nope they have a small group that talk about where the market is and what part fo the market best fits their budget.

There are just far too many studios,most do not have a budget to make a good game,so they set about making trash and trying their best to sell that trash.For the most part it is easy,they look at the cheapest part of the market,BR's,moba's,KSr's 2d scrollers,locked overhead camera 10x10 game engines etc etc.

They are not going to sit there and say ...hey we don't have the money,we don't have the team but  let's just take out a 100 million loan and try it anyhow ..lol,not happening.My fave studio at the time Square Enix was a dev studio that was into making good rpg's,not just a market thing but that was THEIR thing.They did quite well and of course with very cheap Asian market labor it was easier for them to spend 5-7 years in debt before turning a profit.

Not only do modern devs not want to take on ANY risk at all,they want instant profits,so the sheer idealism of how games are made now means we are going to keep getting half assed cheap crap because ....it fits their budget and size of team.No new upstart team is going to go out and hire 150 people and all have the same vision,it would take some time to get that team on track and a lot of money.

Amathe

Kyleran said:

Forget the stupid apples already ...

Exactly. Analogies serve a purpose when a point is in need of simplification or illustration.  Their use presumes the reader needs, or would benefit from, making something easier to comprehend. If the original point is, however, fallacious or silly, using an analogy won't make it less fallacious or less silly. Making matters worse, as here, is when the analogy itself is defective.

The OP always assumes his points are so loftily intellectual that they need to be dumbed down for the rest of us using what appear to be the only available two fruits in his rhetoric. 

Tiller

Who else only needed a title to know this was a delete5230 thread?

lahnmir

Amathe said:

Kyleran said:

Forget the stupid apples already ...

Exactly. Analogies serve a purpose when a point is in need of simplification or illustration.  Their use presumes the reader needs, or would benefit from, making something easier to comprehend. If the original point is, however, fallacious or silly, using an analogy won't make it less fallacious or less silly. Making matters worse, as here, is when the analogy itself is defective.

The OP always assumes his points are so loftily intellectual that they need to be dumbed down for the rest of us using what appear to be the only available two fruits in his rhetoric. 

Maybe he should have used pears?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir