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Feel good about it

Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 436
Yes I feel good about it. I can't tell you whether Pantheon will release, or endure. But my gut tells me it doesn't matter. Don't you see? This isn't going away. One way or another, me and you and everybody else looking for something like this, we'll find it somehow, or find something else. In my case, I don't expect AAA. We do have Saga of Lucimia, but I expect I can compromise even further if I have to. We got Project 1999. We have other emulators. We got SWG. We got so many obscure MMORGPs. There're MUDs. There're other kinds of games. There're things we don't even know about right now. I think maybe I feel this way because I've been around so long. I understand there're literally thousands of MMORPGs that have come and gone, and pieces of them are still out there. It's like an all you can eat if you can imagine it. Tehy'll never truly be gone. One only has to have the slightest touch of resilience to weather this. Life throws good and bad at us. Sometimes it can really feel like it's over, but if and when it's actually over, you don't have to worry anymore because you'll be dead. If you've ever survived a gloomy time in your life, you'll recall a moment where you realized the sun will rise tomorrow. Tomorrow can bring us something new things, especailly if we apply ourselves. The only guarantee you'll live a miserable life is doing nothing, and giving up on tomorrow.

Don't give up. Keep your head held up ridiculously high, no matter your station in life. There's so much to look forward to, things to appreciate and work for. There's so much you and I haven't done in our lives, or seen, and tha'ts exciting isn't it? It's out there, waiting for us. As long as you have some health, and you don't even need very much, well you can find enough happiness to meet your needs, if you don't quit, if you hold onto some hope in the future.

I don't think I need a measuring stick. I don't need an exact answer. I think things are ok, regardless what happens. Somewhere somehow things are good.

Here, if nothing else is working, maybe this will:


XarkoKumaponAgent_JosephalkarionlogFlyByKnight
«13

Comments

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 436
    edited August 31
    I wish you all the best. Keep up your spirits. Remember, the darker it's, the brighter the light will be. it's not over until ti's over, there's always hope if you're still around. Find your calling, and if you don't know what it's, that's ok because most of us don't know.

    We all fall. Life isn't all pretty, but if we're going tl fall, lets try to fall with style. Maybe this will help you understand:

    Try to  believe in tomorrow, and you'll find your way.

    alkarionlogFlyByKnight
  • Castekin1999Castekin1999 Newbie CommonPosts: 9
    edited August 31

    Yes I feel good about it. I can't tell you whether Pantheon will release, or endure. But my gut tells me it doesn't matter. Don't you see? 


    It kind of does matter.  A lot of people have donated money to this game.  Some have even donated in excess of $1000 for VIP access. Now as many suspected the game appears to be nothing more than vaporware. 


    I sincerely hope this is the last time Brad will be able to diddle anyone else out of their hard-earned cash.  That hope is the only thing that will keep my spirits up.



    svann
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,721
    In about four years from now, this game will pop back up on the radar and people will be excited about it again.  It will be slightly less buggy as it is now and developers will feel it's ready for launch and it will, but in an early bata state. 

    At first I say everyone will be playing it, but as time progressed I now say it will be niche, ONLY BECAUSE it will play autistic and cater to the people that are willing to put up with it.

    It will be a huge topic here and lots of controversy.  Some will over look its buggy nature and say its a great game, others will contradict..... It will be a huge argument.  


    Developers seem disconnected to modern times and march to the beat of their own drum.  To be extremely successful to all Visionary Realms would have to scrap the game, and over see a team of modern developers and programmers.


    I for one will like it despite its huge flaws. I hope my power computer will understand the coding !

    Feel good about it ?.....Not yet, lets see how much Autism is in the final product.
    AmathemmoloualkarionlogBeezerbeez
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,303
    edited September 4
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    Mendel

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,555
    edited September 4
    When you are my age you have to focus on what's available today because tomorrow may really never come.

     :# 
    SovrathAmatheMendelcheebaBeezerbeez

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,527

    Feel good about it ?.....Not yet, lets see how much Autism is in the final product.
    What the hell dude?
    mmolouKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,991
    I already forgot about it tbh...If it wasn't for this site I wouldn't know it even existed.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,176
    Wizardry said:
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    I'm not sure how well the nostalgia-driven game design will actually work.  Certainly, Pantheon (and others) simply are not trying to entertain us with something revolutionary.  I'm not sure Brad is capable of doing something drastically different and have said so.  It appears though, that Pantheon is content just following the pattern established over 20 years ago.  Nothing that will change our ideas of what an MMORPG is supposed to be.

    Failing while trying something new is acceptable.  Failing doing something old and derivative isn't. I hope that Pantheon won't fail, but I already know that Pantheon won't change the MMORPG genre.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    edited September 4
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    I'm not sure how well the nostalgia-driven game design will actually work.  Certainly, Pantheon (and others) simply are not trying to entertain us with something revolutionary.  I'm not sure Brad is capable of doing something drastically different and have said so.  It appears though, that Pantheon is content just following the pattern established over 20 years ago.  Nothing that will change our ideas of what an MMORPG is supposed to be.

    Failing while trying something new is acceptable.  Failing doing something old and derivative isn't. I hope that Pantheon won't fail, but I already know that Pantheon won't change the MMORPG genre.



    The problem with statements like yours is that you just "don't get it."

    People like you seem to insist (operative word "seem") that its' nostalgia. Well, sure, for some it is. For others it really is a preferred type of game play. Is it that you don't like that game play and therefore you can't understand why others would? Because that seems to be a way of thinking for many.

    The last week or so I've been heavily playing Morrowind. This is a game that I played for a good 2 years when I got it and definitely played it off and on since that time.

    And quite frankly, it's the best game I've ever played. Oh sure, it has its issues but its very particular game play is really what I prefer in a game.

    Just like I preferred Vanguard and subbed to it right until they announced the closing.

    Now, I hear that this game is more of an Everquest successor but given my experiences in Everquest, I think it will hit just the right notes.

    Also, at the moment, my only mmorpg is Lord of the Rings Online and a bit of Ryzom. Two very old games. So, I strongly suspect that a game like Pantheon is for someone like me. This is not to say that I wouldn't want something new like very advanced AI or a world that grew and changed despite what I or other players did, but until we get that type of technology and technology that creates a world "right" I'll settle for the old style games.


    Post edited by Sovrath on
    Kyleran



  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,176
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    I'm not sure how well the nostalgia-driven game design will actually work.  Certainly, Pantheon (and others) simply are not trying to entertain us with something revolutionary.  I'm not sure Brad is capable of doing something drastically different and have said so.  It appears though, that Pantheon is content just following the pattern established over 20 years ago.  Nothing that will change our ideas of what an MMORPG is supposed to be.

    Failing while trying something new is acceptable.  Failing doing something old and derivative isn't. I hope that Pantheon won't fail, but I already know that Pantheon won't change the MMORPG genre.



    The problem with statements like yours is that you just "don't get it."

    People like you seem to insist (operative word "seem") that its' nostalgia. Well, sure, for some it is. For others it really is a preferred type of game play. Is it that you don't like that game play and therefore you can't understand why others would? Because that seems to be a way of thinking for many.

    The last week or so I've been heavily playing Morrowind. This is a game that I played for a good 2 years when I got it and definitely played it off and on since that time.

    And quite frankly, it's the best game I've ever played. Oh sure, it has its issues but its very particular game play is really what I prefer in a game.

    Just like I preferred Vanguard and subbed to it right until they announced the closing.

    Now, I hear that this game is more of an Everquest successor but given my experiences in Everquest, I think it will hit just the right notes.

    Also, at the moment, my only mmorpg is Lord of the Rings Online and a bit of Ryzom. Two very old games. So, I strongly suspect that a game like Pantheon is for someone like me. This is not to say that I wouldn't want something new like very advanced AI or a world that grew and changed despite what I or other players did, but until we get that type of technology and technology that creates a world "right" I'll settle for the old style games.


    Maybe I don't "Get it".  But I have not seen undisputed factual proof that this segment of the player base actually exists, and especially not in the numbers necessary to support a game.  Posters may constitute "many", but that doesn't constitute a majority position, nor does that indicate that they will continue to be satisfied with the old-school game play that Pantheon appears set to deliver.  That is entirely anecdotal evidence.

    Maybe Pantheon will be the game that completes and demonstrates that there is an uncounted population wishing to play games from 2000 again.  In that case, I'll happily eat crow and "be wrong".  It won't faze me; it won't even be a new experience.  I'll probably even play for awhile, if it doesn't wreck my gaming budget.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    edited September 6
    Mendel said:


    Maybe I don't "Get it".  But I have not seen undisputed factual proof that this segment of the player base actually exists, and especially not in the numbers necessary to support a game.  Posters may constitute "many", but that doesn't constitute a majority position, nor does that indicate that they will continue to be satisfied with the old-school game play that Pantheon appears set to deliver.  That is entirely anecdotal evidence.

    Maybe Pantheon will be the game that completes and demonstrates that there is an uncounted population wishing to play games from 2000 again.  In that case, I'll happily eat crow and "be wrong".  It won't faze me; it won't even be a new experience.  I'll probably even play for awhile, if it doesn't wreck my gaming budget.



    Well, now wait a minute. Those are two different things.

    Yes, there is a segment of players that exist, I being one of them. I've met some others so I know I"m not a unique snowflake among many.


    If I log into Ryzom there are people there. If I log into Everquest there are definitely people there., Same with Lord of the Rings Online but that game has the quest hub sensibility.

    These people exist and you can see them for yourself. Not hard.

    However that does'tmean that there are enough of those players to support a game. Those are two different things. The problems (once again) is that some people can't seem to separate the two.

    There is a contingent of players who love "old school" game design. Many on this very forum. However, given the current environment in games we have no idea if Pantheon or any similar game can sustain enough players to keep them going.




  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,176
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:


    Maybe I don't "Get it".  But I have not seen undisputed factual proof that this segment of the player base actually exists, and especially not in the numbers necessary to support a game.  Posters may constitute "many", but that doesn't constitute a majority position, nor does that indicate that they will continue to be satisfied with the old-school game play that Pantheon appears set to deliver.  That is entirely anecdotal evidence.

    Maybe Pantheon will be the game that completes and demonstrates that there is an uncounted population wishing to play games from 2000 again.  In that case, I'll happily eat crow and "be wrong".  It won't faze me; it won't even be a new experience.  I'll probably even play for awhile, if it doesn't wreck my gaming budget.



    Well, now wait a minute. Those are two different things.

    Yes, there is a segment of players that exist, I being one of them. I've met some others so I know I"m not a unique snowflake among many.


    If I log into Ryzom there are people there. If I log into Everquest there are definitely people there., Same with Lord of the Rings Online but that game has the quest hub sensibility.

    These people exist and you can see them for yourself. Not hard.

    However that does'tmean that there are enough of those players to support a game. Those are two different things. The problems (once again) is that some people can't seem to separate the two.

    There is a contingent of players who love "old school" game design. Given the current environment in games we have no idea if Pantheon can sustain enough players to keep it going.

    These are extremely related factors though.  Yes, there are small populations of players who love "Old School".  Like you point out, they are busy playing older games.  I play LOTRO myself, and even EQ1 when I get bored.  Pantheon doesn't appear to be doing anything to dislodge these sparse populations from their comfy locations.  LOTRO, for instance, sold a lot of "lifetime" subscriptions and have meticulously honored that.  That LOTRO population isn't likely to move to a new game.  Each of these older games have some lure that is going to keep a core contingent from considering another game.

    I've never disputed the presence of individuals that prefer "Old School" games.  I do not believe that Pantheon is doing anything that will attract large groups en masse.  Will the individuals they do attract be sufficient to make Pantheon prosperous, or will it simply enter the world with the same subsistence level population that EQ1, EQ2, Ryzom, PWI, or other Gen 1 MMORPGs are struggling along with.  That would be an almost complete fiscal failure on Pantheon's part, and a possible fate that is very much a viable possibility.  If Pantheon does succeed, it is very likely to be at the expense of some of these struggling games.

    Basically, because there are some people playing these older games, that does not mean these people are a single "market" group to be magically transformed into Pantheon players.

    The "contingent of players" is an anecdotal factor.  Individuals may claim they're in this group.  There isn't any way, without insider information from multiple game companies, to verify this, or even confirm that these blocks of potential customers exist.  Neither is there information that these potential Pantheon players will move or act as a coherent "market" group.  Lack of information is itself a fact, much like a null in database theory.

    I really hope that VR has some really solid details about their potential customer base, more than are available to non-insiders.  If not, no matter the quality of the game that VR produces, there could be some serious issues for the people behind Pantheon.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,555
    Mendel said:
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    I'm not sure how well the nostalgia-driven game design will actually work.  Certainly, Pantheon (and others) simply are not trying to entertain us with something revolutionary.  I'm not sure Brad is capable of doing something drastically different and have said so.  It appears though, that Pantheon is content just following the pattern established over 20 years ago.  Nothing that will change our ideas of what an MMORPG is supposed to be.

    Failing while trying something new is acceptable.  Failing doing something old and derivative isn't. I hope that Pantheon won't fail, but I already know that Pantheon won't change the MMORPG genre.



    The problem with statements like yours is that you just "don't get it."

    People like you seem to insist (operative word "seem") that its' nostalgia. Well, sure, for some it is. For others it really is a preferred type of game play. Is it that you don't like that game play and therefore you can't understand why others would? Because that seems to be a way of thinking for many.

    The last week or so I've been heavily playing Morrowind. This is a game that I played for a good 2 years when I got it and definitely played it off and on since that time.

    And quite frankly, it's the best game I've ever played. Oh sure, it has its issues but its very particular game play is really what I prefer in a game.

    Just like I preferred Vanguard and subbed to it right until they announced the closing.

    Now, I hear that this game is more of an Everquest successor but given my experiences in Everquest, I think it will hit just the right notes.

    Also, at the moment, my only mmorpg is Lord of the Rings Online and a bit of Ryzom. Two very old games. So, I strongly suspect that a game like Pantheon is for someone like me. This is not to say that I wouldn't want something new like very advanced AI or a world that grew and changed despite what I or other players did, but until we get that type of technology and technology that creates a world "right" I'll settle for the old style games.


    Maybe I don't "Get it".  But I have not seen undisputed factual proof that this segment of the player base actually exists, and especially not in the numbers necessary to support a game.  Posters may constitute "many", but that doesn't constitute a majority position, nor does that indicate that they will continue to be satisfied with the old-school game play that Pantheon appears set to deliver.  That is entirely anecdotal evidence.

    Maybe Pantheon will be the game that completes and demonstrates that there is an uncounted population wishing to play games from 2000 again.  In that case, I'll happily eat crow and "be wrong".  It won't faze me; it won't even be a new experience.  I'll probably even play for awhile, if it doesn't wreck my gaming budget.



    Err, glad to see you were recently  rescued from that desert island, but this month Blizzard released their Classic version and over 1.1 M people logged into Twitch just to watch a few streamers play it.

    They can't open new servers fast enough, PVP servers being the most popular, go figure.

    What more proof do you need when a 15 year old game design is so popular?



    Ltldogg

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,000
    Kyleran said:
    Mendel said:
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    My gut feeling has always served me well but not on a whim,i do quite a bit of homework prior.

    This game will not be great unless it does something,actually way more than just some thing,it has to do a lot of great things.My gut says based on the past,Brad just cannot break from the past ideals/mistakes or poor implementation.

    I don't want to get into a piece by piece of mistakes and what i consider either lazy or bad design choices from the past because i am not making the game,the team has to show me.EQ1 is not even close to good enough for me with new graphics,that design imo was ok for then but we/they can do a ton better.Vanguard was a mild improvement,still the same mistakes though.

    One of the biggest mistakes any mmorpg can do is turn the game into a 24/7 instance or even non instance dungeon crawler looking for boss loot.I rather WAY more emphasis on character building and class design/depth,versatility,a really nice story that encompasses the entire world.If they make Boss runs too important,then the rest of the game might as well not even exist.If they make a SIMPLE lazy tree of gear like in the past>>>NOT good enough....boring.I don't want to see 1-10 tier 11-20 tier nope,ok then ,not cool now.
    I'm not sure how well the nostalgia-driven game design will actually work.  Certainly, Pantheon (and others) simply are not trying to entertain us with something revolutionary.  I'm not sure Brad is capable of doing something drastically different and have said so.  It appears though, that Pantheon is content just following the pattern established over 20 years ago.  Nothing that will change our ideas of what an MMORPG is supposed to be.

    Failing while trying something new is acceptable.  Failing doing something old and derivative isn't. I hope that Pantheon won't fail, but I already know that Pantheon won't change the MMORPG genre.



    The problem with statements like yours is that you just "don't get it."

    People like you seem to insist (operative word "seem") that its' nostalgia. Well, sure, for some it is. For others it really is a preferred type of game play. Is it that you don't like that game play and therefore you can't understand why others would? Because that seems to be a way of thinking for many.

    The last week or so I've been heavily playing Morrowind. This is a game that I played for a good 2 years when I got it and definitely played it off and on since that time.

    And quite frankly, it's the best game I've ever played. Oh sure, it has its issues but its very particular game play is really what I prefer in a game.

    Just like I preferred Vanguard and subbed to it right until they announced the closing.

    Now, I hear that this game is more of an Everquest successor but given my experiences in Everquest, I think it will hit just the right notes.

    Also, at the moment, my only mmorpg is Lord of the Rings Online and a bit of Ryzom. Two very old games. So, I strongly suspect that a game like Pantheon is for someone like me. This is not to say that I wouldn't want something new like very advanced AI or a world that grew and changed despite what I or other players did, but until we get that type of technology and technology that creates a world "right" I'll settle for the old style games.


    Maybe I don't "Get it".  But I have not seen undisputed factual proof that this segment of the player base actually exists, and especially not in the numbers necessary to support a game.  Posters may constitute "many", but that doesn't constitute a majority position, nor does that indicate that they will continue to be satisfied with the old-school game play that Pantheon appears set to deliver.  That is entirely anecdotal evidence.

    Maybe Pantheon will be the game that completes and demonstrates that there is an uncounted population wishing to play games from 2000 again.  In that case, I'll happily eat crow and "be wrong".  It won't faze me; it won't even be a new experience.  I'll probably even play for awhile, if it doesn't wreck my gaming budget.



    Err, glad to see you were recently  rescued from that desert island, but this month Blizzard released their Classic version and over 1.1 M people logged into Twitch just to watch a few streamers play it.

    They can't open new servers fast enough, PVP servers being the most popular, go figure.

    What more proof do you need when a 15 year old game design is so popular?



    WoW classic is about curiosity, there is a huge crowd that will jump into games just because its what people talk about, some want to see if they can recapture the fun they had 15 years ago and others that want to see what it was like to play that old game that everyone talked about 15 years ago.

    That crowd is fickle. We saw plenty of releases in the past where they opened new servers for that initial burst of players and PvP servers were the most popular back then as well.  Six months later you were left with dead servers.

    With wow classic we get to see how many people jump into the game due to nostalgia and leave within a few months and how many that stick to the old game design and the proof will be how many live servers have a queue six months in and how many that are wastelands.
    Mendel
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,176
    Kyleran said:
    Err, glad to see you were recently  rescued from that desert island, but this month Blizzard released their Classic version and over 1.1 M people logged into Twitch just to watch a few streamers play it.

    They can't open new servers fast enough, PVP servers being the most popular, go figure.

    What more proof do you need when a 15 year old game design is so popular?



    Okay, let's pretend that a REPORTED 1.1 million people WATCHED a stream of WOW CLASSIC.  We're all role players here.  I won't contend that there was a group of people at an event.  At least I'm not arguing against around 900,000 people at NFL stadiums or a lot more watching via TV.  Time to thank my lucky stars, I guess.

    For the sake of continuing this discussion, let's move onto the second part of the observations about Pantheon's audience.

    After locating a potential audience, a company needs to convert these people into actual paying customers.  This is typically done by marketing.  How does relying on independent streamers sell an audience on VR's message and the virtues of Pantheon?  I understand that word-of-mouth is a powerful marketing tool, but there appears to be no active participation or direction from VR.  This doesn't seem like a viable long-term plan for any business; a word-of-mouth campaign is typically backed by other campaigns.

    Maybe it is too early in Pantheon's product cycle to consider marketing, but it can be observed that ardent supporters are already antsy, and looking at any sizable group of people as the potential audience for Pantheon.  The uncounted (and unconfirmed) viewership of the prior Pantheon-specific play demonstrations, for instance.  Those I can credit with direct VR involvement, despite any opinion on the content or effectiveness of those messages.

    So, is there a master plan behind Pantheon's advertising?  They appear to be dabbling in those areas already.  How much control of their message does VR want?

    Or maybe people are crediting Brad and company with the ideas for the NFL.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    Mendel said:
    I do not believe that Pantheon is doing anything that will attract large groups en masse.  Will the individuals they do attract be sufficient to make Pantheon prosperous, or will it simply enter the world with the same subsistence level population that EQ1, EQ2, Ryzom, PWI, or other Gen 1 MMORPGs are struggling along with.  That would be an almost complete fiscal failure on Pantheon's part, and a possible fate that is very much a viable possibility.  If Pantheon does succeed, it is very likely to be at the expense of some of these struggling games.

    Basically, because there are some people playing these older games, that does not mean these people are a single "market" group to be magically transformed into Pantheon players.





    Well, whenever any game seems to launch there is an overabundance of players willing to try it. Even just based on me logging in and having a queue. Doesn't mean they will stay but there are so many players out there looking for "something."

    At this point, with so few games being launched people are ravenous just to try something. The people playing the "older games" have most likely been playing them for a loooong time. 

    Not necessarily a betting man but I'd bet those people who love "old school games" and who have been playing a looong time would love something fresh.

    Given how I wasn't able to get a seat to test it at the last PAX because it filled up so quickly, I'm betting that there are a lot of players keen on a new old school game.

    Sure, these aren't "numbahz" and I have no charts but if at least 100k players don't try it I'd be surprised.

    As far as advertising, yes, it's too early. Especially given that it costs so much to advertise. What they will most likely do to "advertise" is release their zone that is supposed to be representative of Pantheon game play and that will be the thing to entice (or turn away) new players.



  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,176
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    I do not believe that Pantheon is doing anything that will attract large groups en masse.  Will the individuals they do attract be sufficient to make Pantheon prosperous, or will it simply enter the world with the same subsistence level population that EQ1, EQ2, Ryzom, PWI, or other Gen 1 MMORPGs are struggling along with.  That would be an almost complete fiscal failure on Pantheon's part, and a possible fate that is very much a viable possibility.  If Pantheon does succeed, it is very likely to be at the expense of some of these struggling games.

    Basically, because there are some people playing these older games, that does not mean these people are a single "market" group to be magically transformed into Pantheon players.





    Well, whenever any game seems to launch there is an overabundance of players willing to try it. Even just based on me logging in and having a queue. Doesn't mean they will stay but there are so many players out there looking for "something."

    At this point, with so few games being launched people are ravenous just to try something. The people playing the "older games" have most likely been playing them for a loooong time. 

    Not necessarily a betting man but I'd bet those people who love "old school games" and who have been playing a looong time would love something fresh.

    Given how I wasn't able to get a seat to test it at the last PAX because it filled up so quickly, I'm betting that there are a lot of players keen on a new old school game.

    Sure, these aren't "numbahz" and I have no charts but if at least 100k players don't try it I'd be surprised.

    As far as advertising, yes, it's too early. Especially given that it costs so much to advertise. What they will most likely do to "advertise" is release their zone that is supposed to be representative of Pantheon game play and that will be the thing to entice (or turn away) new players.
    So, we want to backtrack on this discussion.  Very well.

    A number of players playing older games is an anecdotal example.  Your personal experience at PAX is also anecdotal.  All the examples you give are anecdotal.  I don't have an non-anecdotal examples, either.  I don't know that even VR has solid information on that.  At least, they haven't volunteered that kind of information.

    The questions about the Pantheon player base are two-fold:  where are they now and how will Pantheon attract these people from whatever they are doing currently.  I haven't heard solid information that VR is acting on concrete information about their future customers.  It appears from the outside that they are acting on a "if we build it, they will come" approach.

    It's entirely possible that the people funding VR are more comfortable without this kind of knowledge than I am.  I can wish them well, even.  That doesn't make the business of this particular game development project appear to be well structured.  I know if I were an investor, that would be the first thing I would ask.  I was asked similar questions in 2003 when I attempted to find funding for my own MMORPG ideas.  Those are very hard questions for a business to answer, but questions that form the foundation of any successful business.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    Mendel said:
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    I do not believe that Pantheon is doing anything that will attract large groups en masse.  Will the individuals they do attract be sufficient to make Pantheon prosperous, or will it simply enter the world with the same subsistence level population that EQ1, EQ2, Ryzom, PWI, or other Gen 1 MMORPGs are struggling along with.  That would be an almost complete fiscal failure on Pantheon's part, and a possible fate that is very much a viable possibility.  If Pantheon does succeed, it is very likely to be at the expense of some of these struggling games.

    Basically, because there are some people playing these older games, that does not mean these people are a single "market" group to be magically transformed into Pantheon players.





    Well, whenever any game seems to launch there is an overabundance of players willing to try it. Even just based on me logging in and having a queue. Doesn't mean they will stay but there are so many players out there looking for "something."

    At this point, with so few games being launched people are ravenous just to try something. The people playing the "older games" have most likely been playing them for a loooong time. 

    Not necessarily a betting man but I'd bet those people who love "old school games" and who have been playing a looong time would love something fresh.

    Given how I wasn't able to get a seat to test it at the last PAX because it filled up so quickly, I'm betting that there are a lot of players keen on a new old school game.

    Sure, these aren't "numbahz" and I have no charts but if at least 100k players don't try it I'd be surprised.

    As far as advertising, yes, it's too early. Especially given that it costs so much to advertise. What they will most likely do to "advertise" is release their zone that is supposed to be representative of Pantheon game play and that will be the thing to entice (or turn away) new players.
    So, we want to backtrack on this discussion.  Very well.

    A number of players playing older games is an anecdotal example.  Your personal experience at PAX is also anecdotal.  All the examples you give are anecdotal.  I don't have an non-anecdotal examples, either.  I don't know that even VR has solid information on that.  At least, they haven't volunteered that kind of information.

    The questions about the Pantheon player base are two-fold:  where are they now and how will Pantheon attract these people from whatever they are doing currently.  I haven't heard solid information that VR is acting on concrete information about their future customers.  It appears from the outside that they are acting on a "if we build it, they will come" approach.

    It's entirely possible that the people funding VR are more comfortable without this kind of knowledge than I am.  I can wish them well, even.  That doesn't make the business of this particular game development project appear to be well structured.  I know if I were an investor, that would be the first thing I would ask.  I was asked similar questions in 2003 when I attempted to find funding for my own MMORPG ideas.  Those are very hard questions for a business to answer, but questions that form the foundation of any successful business.



    Yes, I know they are anecdotal. Which is why I said what I said Sure, "these aren't "numbahz" and I have no charts but if at least 100k players don't try it I'd be surprised."

    And when I spoke with Brad he did say that he thought there was a large group of people out there who were looking for this type of game so sure, sort of a "if we build it they will come." I didn't get into anything deeper as far as whether or not they had other info at their disposal.



  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,721
    The best chance this game has is if it disappears off the radar for a few years. Then re surfaces at some point with shock and awe footage that would amaze everyone, where people say "I never expected that"..... Then I would feel good about it. 

    Unfortunately, all investors would be mad..... However I think they will soon be angry anyway. 



    Going Dark like Saga of Lucimia is a good idea.  But that game is far enough along were they can allow investors to play the game.

    Pantheon, investors are just kept in the dark.... theirs a difference !
  • skeaserskeaser Member UncommonPosts: 3,949
    I'm super hopeful for this game, but I agree with what's been said above that I think I'm way too far into the minority for this to work out as it stands. VR has got to get some hype going before launch. I realize that's a good way in the future and I hope they're just waiting until the time is right so the hype doesn't die before launch.
  • Castekin1999Castekin1999 Newbie CommonPosts: 9
    The best chance this game has is if it disappears off the radar for a few years. Then re surfaces at some point with shock and awe footage that would amaze everyone, where people say "I never expected that"..... Then I would feel good about it. 

    Unfortunately, all investors would be mad..... However I think they will soon be angry anyway. 



    Going Dark like Saga of Lucimia is a good idea.  But that game is far enough along were they can allow investors to play the game.

    Pantheon, investors are just kept in the dark.... theirs a difference !


    Hello delete5230 do you mind me asking why do you think a few more years would make a difference?

    Considering the game has been in production since 2013 and is still in the early stages of pre alpha what will a few more year accomplish?


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    The best chance this game has is if it disappears off the radar for a few years. Then re surfaces at some point with shock and awe footage that would amaze everyone, where people say "I never expected that"..... Then I would feel good about it. 

    Unfortunately, all investors would be mad..... However I think they will soon be angry anyway. 



    Going Dark like Saga of Lucimia is a good idea.  But that game is far enough along were they can allow investors to play the game.

    Pantheon, investors are just kept in the dark.... theirs a difference !
    I receive updates in my e-mail and there are developer round tables. Last was posted Sept. 6th.

    Of course the one before that was a whopping August 2nd. And before that? Yeah, July 5th. If only there was some sort of pattern when we could figure out when the next would be ... 

    But that's unpossible.  :|


    Kyleran



  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 178
    I for one fall into that niche category of gamer. I almost exclusively prefer holy trinity, class based, non-instanced worlds with a degree of difficulty. I have played EQ1 off and once since release (live and emu) and will probably continue to do so until both shut down.

    There are a lot of things I would like to see updated and modernized, but I do not play any of the live-action-combat games that are in favor today. I do not like to dodge and aim my attacks. I do not like skill trees or quest-based leveling. I do not like pvp and I want there to be a significant amount of pride and attachment to my character(s).

    These things are not nostalgia, these are the items in my mmo checklist. They are also why I am not currently playing an mmo.
    Sovrathdelete5230Kyleran
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,929
    The best chance this game has is if it disappears off the radar for a few years. Then re surfaces at some point with shock and awe footage that would amaze everyone, where people say "I never expected that"..... Then I would feel good about it. 

    Unfortunately, all investors would be mad..... However I think they will soon be angry anyway. 



    Going Dark like Saga of Lucimia is a good idea.  But that game is far enough along were they can allow investors to play the game.

    Pantheon, investors are just kept in the dark.... theirs a difference !


    Hello delete5230 do you mind me asking why do you think a few more years would make a difference?

    Considering the game has been in production since 2013 and is still in the early stages of pre alpha what will a few more year accomplish?


    Has it? Their kickstarter was in 2014 and I don't recall them having any to show then. It then failed and they had to actually make something to then show which then got them some backers.



  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,303
    The way i see it is this ...

    This is just a job for this Visionary Realms team,it pays the bills,gives them employment but never a AAA business venture.If it ends up working out for them,great for them but i really doubt it.

    So just like forum users,their team is thinking as well and i am quite sure i know how they are thinking the solution through.IMO similar to 99% of the studios,they have a goal then it is go time.That goal is again a common simple one,when they feel the game is decently playable/ready,it will release in some monetized form but imo will never release or become ma AAA mmorpg.

    DO i still wish the game good luck and hope it turns out or be a hidden gem,yes i do,most certainly do.I just have 40 years of gaming and online to understand the bigger picture and i don't see this being any kind of savior to the mmorpg genre.

    However even though i have a very good feeling this ends up barely AA,what i want to see more than anything is that this team has learned from past mistakes,past bad implementation of ideas or still just a EQ1 part deux or part Trois.

    There is a lot of room for a very good mmorpg to release,dev teams just have to see it all and understand how to design the game and it's systems.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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