What's impressive with Blizzard is that they care about the little things and not just big stuff. Not all companis fix these little bugs that can impact the economy. For example the relogin containers exploit in ESO was still there last time I played.
WoW classic is a difficult game to raid in. Getting potions was a massive problem for our guild. Each player could go through 2-3 potions per attempt at every boss basicly. I as a tank used many, many potions. I remembered when we had MC on farm that I would bring 10 stacks of potions with me.
Getting all these potions was what created all the drama in my guild. Some people didn't want to spend even 5 mins working on potions others spent hours.
We choose not to reward DKP for potions, that probably would have made it a lot more bearable. But then we would have problem getting people to sign up for MC. We would often start MC with just 25 people, then slowly creep up to 36 and maybe 40 towards the last kill.
Then there's all the gold needed for repairs, not to mention that epic gear was not very good for many classes nerfing their dps.
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
First mmos are not hard. That said WoW was "harder" than DAoC!
As far as melee combat - I disagree- DAoC had way better positional attack system, shields that actually worked (as in active arrow blocking) etc...
So for me DAoC was more challenging to play at high level in PvP due to higher skill ceiling - while vanilla WoW had way simpler mechanics in PvP.
My comment was about gaining levels - which is what most people, I believe, mean when they talk about an mmo being "harder".
Positional combat made DAoC a "more skillful" PvP game.
As far as hitting cap though it actually took a little longer in WoW. Not that advancing through the levels n any mmo has ever been "hard"; Sometimes tedious but never difficult. Sometimes, imo, tedious gets mixed up with hard.
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
First mmos are not hard. That said WoW was "harder" than DAoC!
As far as melee combat - I disagree- DAoC had way better positional attack system, shields that actually worked (as in active arrow blocking) etc...
So for me DAoC was more challenging to play at high level in PvP due to higher skill ceiling - while vanilla WoW had way simpler mechanics in PvP.
My comment was about gaining levels - which is what most people, I believe, mean when they talk about an mmo being "harder".
Positional combat made DAoC a "more skillful" PvP game.
As far as hitting cap though it actually took a little longer in WoW. Not that advancing through the levels n any mmo has ever been "hard"; Sometimes tedious but never difficult. Sometimes, imo, tedious gets mixed up with hard.
My guess is you never leveled a Bard, Healer or most any group dependent class in DAOC, near impossible to do solo while I leveled around 6 characters to 60 in Vanilla across 3 different servers pretty much solo except for the lower level dungeon content.
Also when running in a group in DAOC there was quite a large range of efficiency, with the best groups gaining experience far more rapidly by knowing just how much to pull, mastering crowd control and aggro which I never experienced in WOW. (And I raided up to Twin Emps)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ok, logged in. There were literally several 100 players in the starting zone runnging around with nothing to kill. This is just too stupid. I'll wait a week.
OR, join a group and do the quests that way.... like it was meant to be done.
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
First mmos are not hard. That said WoW was "harder" than DAoC!
As far as melee combat - I disagree- DAoC had way better positional attack system, shields that actually worked (as in active arrow blocking) etc...
So for me DAoC was more challenging to play at high level in PvP due to higher skill ceiling - while vanilla WoW had way simpler mechanics in PvP.
My comment was about gaining levels - which is what most people, I believe, mean when they talk about an mmo being "harder".
Positional combat made DAoC a "more skillful" PvP game.
As far as hitting cap though it actually took a little longer in WoW. Not that advancing through the levels n any mmo has ever been "hard"; Sometimes tedious but never difficult. Sometimes, imo, tedious gets mixed up with hard.
My guess is you never leveled a Bard, Healer or most any group dependent class in DAOC, near impossible to do solo while I leveled around 6 characters to 60 in Vanilla across 3 different servers pretty much solo except for the lower level dungeon content.
Also when running in a group in DAOC there was quite a large range of efficiency, with the best groups gaining experience far more rapidly by knowing just how much to pull, mastering crowd control and aggro which I never experienced in WOW. (And I raided up to Twin Emps)
Bard no, healer yes. You are right though it was class dependent. In WoW as well of course. And solo leveling some classes was slow.
The big difference was between DAoC, WoW etc. and the earlier games like EQ and AC. Seem to remember that the first max in DAoC was less than 2 days? Maybe 50 hours? I remember MJ / Mythic expressing surprise!
As for aggro in DAoC ... I also played bow classes ..... aggro ... aggro .... more aggro. Could a full group of sword and boards keep you alive after one shot. Memories.
So Blizzard is fully expecting that WoW classic will have a significant drop off within weeks post launch.
Of course they are, they are actively driving people away with 10 hour queues! I could see 1 hour wait, I get it, but no one has time to wait 10 freaking hours to log in, then have time to play the game. of course everyone is going to quit
lol que lines are not the reason for the drop off that is coming I promise.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Ok, logged in. There were literally several 100 players in the starting zone runnging around with nothing to kill. This is just too stupid. I'll wait a week.
Not to sound like a dick, but why would you expect any different?
I'm a sucker for WoW. I thought I'd recapture the magic when I first started only to find out it wasn't all that magical. It hit me when I logged in, reality set in and I regained my senses. Oh well, won't be the last $15.00 I blow.
About 80% of playerbase will come to the same conclusion over the next few weeks.
Nostalgia is stronger than common sense
If people made decisions solely on logic and not emotion - nostalgia based marketing and sales wouldn't exist.
Just goes to show you that no matter how many previous times we are proven wrong - emotions still override logic and make us believe that we can recapture that first experience of awe and magic.
So gamers keep spending money hoping to recreate and relieve the impossible
You could say the same thing of humanity in general, my man
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
In its time. Well said.
Except .. not anymore. Vanilla WoW is one of the hardest and time consuming game right now.
Ironic isn’t it?
The most casual game of 2004 is now the most challenging in 2019.
That shows how badly MMORPGs ‘evolved’. And there are people who think this is a good thing.
Probably greater emphasis on more time consuming, and less so with regards to actual challenge.
To the recent generation, having to make decisions is challenging... so yeah, Classic is more challenging in that department. It's not "hand it all to me and if I don't like it allow me to change it all for free" anymore.
I understand, but these days I'm not much of a fan of time consuming elements as part of the challenge.
I guess because time's running out ....
It's not more time consuming, it's just decision making when you build your character. Instead of being able to reset everything for free and a few mouse clicks, you have to think and mold the character to what you really want to play.
...
I beg to differ. I subbed a week before the classic launch so I spent some time in retail WOW, which I hadn't seen in several years, just checking things out. If you're talking about time to kill a mob I can sort of see your point. The relative power of a retail character compared to the mobs you fight makes the fights go much faster but it's still in the same ball park kind of with the same GCD and a preponderance of self-rooting cast time abilities.
But everything else? Frequent walks back to the trainer? Having to kill many more mobs before they drop the quest item you need? Health and mana regen? All of those things are orders of magnitude more time consuming compared to retail. To me all of those are dead time annoyances. Not enough to be a deal breaker but I'm not going to pretend they're not annoying.
I even found out yesterday that there's a deliberate 1-hour delay receiving mail if you mail something to an alt. There goes the utility for my auction house mule
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In my opinion what Blizzard did with WoW Classic was a good turn with regards to Gamers of the Generation 30years+ . I think a lot of Gamers of that Generation, who grew up with (PC) games of the first Generation and who might not feel confortable with the direction, how the games of the latest Generation develop into, appreciate to revive their experience of the old mechanics of classic WoW. This game provides the state of popular (mmo) game/rpg mechanics of that time which are missing in the present and/or are not focussed anymore on in the gaming industry.
Maybe WoW classic will be a good example for re-introducing an old game with old mechanics in the actual time, thereby benefiting from and serving the asssumingly big clientele of 30y+ Gamers to a large part. This might motivate other Publishers to do similarly with newer games for addressing this specific Group of Gamers and not only to develop games for the new/young Generation of Gamers.
There are differences in the Preference between the Gamers Generation. Sure the time for investing in games might have declined for us old guys, but Maybe not the enthusiasm for specific mechanics. WoW Classic would only be one example among a lot of other games and Genres.
big balls have to have to play this game in 2020 lol, Activision Blizzard is just bunch of smart hungry cats pursuing the wallet of the fans, put the game in the middle of the your ass and hammer in.
I've never given a thought about prioritizing fun, that's a new concept to me. When it comes to fun/entertainment, I just do what I feel like doing at the time. No thoughts whatsoever of what I can I accomplish in a given time. There is always tomorrow and the next day.
Worrying about what I can get done in a certain amount of time sounds too much like work
I think i may have confused you as I suck at explaining things lol. I just find some games have a ramping effect when it comes to fun. Where the fun grows as the gaming session lengthens. Like when I play monster hunter, I log in, make sure I got the right items, hunt, return with rewards, now im having more fun then when I started. I enjoy playing right off the hop, but after I get back and manipulate all my new goodies, im enjoying the game more. Then theres games like Martyr, where the fun level remains consistant for me, from min 1 to min 30, its the same level of fun.
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
In its time. Well said.
Except .. not anymore. Vanilla WoW is one of the hardest and time consuming game right now.
Ironic isn’t it?
The most casual game of 2004 is now the most challenging in 2019.
That shows how badly MMORPGs ‘evolved’. And there are people who think this is a good thing.
Probably greater emphasis on more time consuming, and less so with regards to actual challenge.
To the recent generation, having to make decisions is challenging... so yeah, Classic is more challenging in that department. It's not "hand it all to me and if I don't like it allow me to change it all for free" anymore.
I understand, but these days I'm not much of a fan of time consuming elements as part of the challenge.
I guess because time's running out ....
It's not more time consuming, it's just decision making when you build your character. Instead of being able to reset everything for free and a few mouse clicks, you have to think and mold the character to what you really want to play.
...
I beg to differ. I subbed a week before the classic launch so I spent some time in retail WOW, which I hadn't seen in several years, just checking things out. If you're talking about time to kill a mob I can sort of see your point. The relative power of a retail character compared to the mobs you fight makes the fights go much faster but it's still in the same ball park kind of with the same GCD and a preponderance of self-rooting cast time abilities.
But everything else? Frequent walks back to the trainer? Having to kill many more mobs before they drop the quest item you need? Health and mana regen? All of those things are orders of magnitude more time consuming compared to retail. To me all of those are dead time annoyances. Not enough to be a deal breaker but I'm not going to pretend they're not annoying.
I even found out yesterday that there's a deliberate 1-hour delay receiving mail if you mail something to an alt. There goes the utility for my auction house mule
You're getting old and cranky Izzy
IMHO
These things that your criticizing, are rightly or wrongly trying to convey an image of a world with its societies.
It's a hard balance.
Personally I like the feeling of being in a virtual world it's the biggest part that draws me into RPG's and MMORPG's
Isn't it one of the things that seperate RPG's from straight up action games?
With that being said as you get up in levels and you ding ever more slowly is it really that bad?
so frustrating seeing streamers try to talk up how HARD classic was, like WOW wasn't the most boiled down easy to access child friendly game on the planet.
Vanilla WoW was the most casual MMORPG in its time.
How quickly people forget
In its time. Well said.
Except .. not anymore. Vanilla WoW is one of the hardest and time consuming game right now.
Ironic isn’t it?
The most casual game of 2004 is now the most challenging in 2019.
That shows how badly MMORPGs ‘evolved’. And there are people who think this is a good thing.
Probably greater emphasis on more time consuming, and less so with regards to actual challenge.
To the recent generation, having to make decisions is challenging... so yeah, Classic is more challenging in that department. It's not "hand it all to me and if I don't like it allow me to change it all for free" anymore.
I understand, but these days I'm not much of a fan of time consuming elements as part of the challenge.
I guess because time's running out ....
It's not more time consuming, it's just decision making when you build your character. Instead of being able to reset everything for free and a few mouse clicks, you have to think and mold the character to what you really want to play.
...
I beg to differ. I subbed a week before the classic launch so I spent some time in retail WOW, which I hadn't seen in several years, just checking things out. If you're talking about time to kill a mob I can sort of see your point. The relative power of a retail character compared to the mobs you fight makes the fights go much faster but it's still in the same ball park kind of with the same GCD and a preponderance of self-rooting cast time abilities.
But everything else? Frequent walks back to the trainer? Having to kill many more mobs before they drop the quest item you need? Health and mana regen? All of those things are orders of magnitude more time consuming compared to retail. To me all of those are dead time annoyances. Not enough to be a deal breaker but I'm not going to pretend they're not annoying.
I even found out yesterday that there's a deliberate 1-hour delay receiving mail if you mail something to an alt. There goes the utility for my auction house mule
You're getting old and cranky Izzy
IMHO
These things that your criticizing, are rightly or wrongly trying to convey an image of a world with its societies.
It's a hard balance.
Personally I like the feeling of being in a virtual world it's the biggest part that draws me into RPG's and MMORPG's
Isn't it one of the things that seperate RPG's from straight up action games?
With that being said as you get up in levels and you ding ever more slowly is it really that bad?
I don't know if it's age. I'm actually pretty chill IRL for someone a month and half away from turning 70. Even online although I do have a temper - I always have - I'm not in the same category as someone like Wizardry or even some of the much younger internet tough guys in this forum
It's not about world or immersion, it's about striking the right balance in game design between fun and drudgery. All games have convenient abstractions, even WOW classic.
Take the need to train your use of a weapon you just learned how to use. I love that about Classic. It's something I wish had been retained by modern MMOs. It's immersive realism at its best. I picked up my 1st wand for my warlock at around level 7 and I had to train myself to use it with multiple resists until I knew how to use it well enough...
... so why doesn't the same thing happen when I pick up a new ability - not just a higher rank of something I know but a new one I have never used before? You are 100% proficient with it right off the bat simply because a developer somewhere thought that this would be going a bit too far toward realism and away from fun. Personally I think that you should also need to train those new abilities for more consistency with the design principle for training weapons.
I'm also not sure that the annoyances are needed to create that feeling of world. It can be a factor to be sure but modern hyper convenient MMOs like GW2, FFXIV and ESO manage just fine to create that world feeling through things like excellent environments and NPC dialogue flavour.
So you can take that old and cranky and stick it up.... never mind
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
But they are
G.U.L.L.I.B.L.E. M.U.G.S.
WoW classic is a difficult game to raid in. Getting potions was a massive problem for our guild. Each player could go through 2-3 potions per attempt at every boss basicly. I as a tank used many, many potions. I remembered when we had MC on farm that I would bring 10 stacks of potions with me.
Getting all these potions was what created all the drama in my guild. Some people didn't want to spend even 5 mins working on potions others spent hours.
We choose not to reward DKP for potions, that probably would have made it a lot more bearable. But then we would have problem getting people to sign up for MC. We would often start MC with just 25 people, then slowly creep up to 36 and maybe 40 towards the last kill.
Then there's all the gold needed for repairs, not to mention that epic gear was not very good for many classes nerfing their dps.
Positional combat made DAoC a "more skillful" PvP game.
As far as hitting cap though it actually took a little longer in WoW. Not that advancing through the levels n any mmo has ever been "hard"; Sometimes tedious but never difficult. Sometimes, imo, tedious gets mixed up with hard.
Also when running in a group in DAOC there was quite a large range of efficiency, with the best groups gaining experience far more rapidly by knowing just how much to pull, mastering crowd control and aggro which I never experienced in WOW. (And I raided up to Twin Emps)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The big difference was between DAoC, WoW etc. and the earlier games like EQ and AC. Seem to remember that the first max in DAoC was less than 2 days? Maybe 50 hours? I remember MJ / Mythic expressing surprise!
As for aggro in DAoC ... I also played bow classes ..... aggro ... aggro .... more aggro. Could a full group of sword and boards keep you alive after one shot. Memories.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
But everything else? Frequent walks back to the trainer? Having to kill many more mobs before they drop the quest item you need? Health and mana regen? All of those things are orders of magnitude more time consuming compared to retail. To me all of those are dead time annoyances. Not enough to be a deal breaker but I'm not going to pretend they're not annoying.
I even found out yesterday that there's a deliberate 1-hour delay receiving mail if you mail something to an alt. There goes the utility for my auction house mule
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Maybe WoW classic will be a good example for re-introducing an old game with old mechanics in the actual time, thereby benefiting from and serving the asssumingly big clientele of 30y+ Gamers to a large part. This might motivate other Publishers to do similarly with newer games for addressing this specific Group of Gamers and not only to develop games for the new/young Generation of Gamers.
There are differences in the Preference between the Gamers Generation. Sure the time for investing in games might have declined for us old guys, but Maybe not the enthusiasm for specific mechanics. WoW Classic would only be one example among a lot of other games and Genres.
IMHO
These things that your criticizing, are rightly or wrongly trying to convey an image of a world with its societies.
It's a hard balance.
Personally I like the feeling of being in a virtual world it's the biggest part that draws me into RPG's and MMORPG's
Isn't it one of the things that seperate RPG's from straight up action games?
With that being said as you get up in levels and you ding ever more slowly is it really that bad?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
It's not about world or immersion, it's about striking the right balance in game design between fun and drudgery. All games have convenient abstractions, even WOW classic.
Take the need to train your use of a weapon you just learned how to use. I love that about Classic. It's something I wish had been retained by modern MMOs. It's immersive realism at its best. I picked up my 1st wand for my warlock at around level 7 and I had to train myself to use it with multiple resists until I knew how to use it well enough...
... so why doesn't the same thing happen when I pick up a new ability - not just a higher rank of something I know but a new one I have never used before? You are 100% proficient with it right off the bat simply because a developer somewhere thought that this would be going a bit too far toward realism and away from fun. Personally I think that you should also need to train those new abilities for more consistency with the design principle for training weapons.
I'm also not sure that the annoyances are needed to create that feeling of world. It can be a factor to be sure but modern hyper convenient MMOs like GW2, FFXIV and ESO manage just fine to create that world feeling through things like excellent environments and NPC dialogue flavour.
So you can take that old and cranky and stick it up.... never mind
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED