Right. But is this sandbox?

Gylfi

Hi!
I can't understand if this MMO is sandbox or not. Videos just show a lot of corridors, train catching, a lot of flying. I like it, i'll get it just to use HOTAS. But i also want to know if there's an at least half serious sandbox simulation behind the flying and stuff. In this simple feature:

To be able to interact with objects in the environment with the character's set of skills, with skill checks. Say i got the skill mechanics (or electronics etc), i see one of those commercial screens around; i want to be able to use my skill on it, and see: if i really fail i get a small shock, if i fail nothing happens, if i succeed i can control it on and off, if i really succeed i get some spare parts of circuitry. Same with thieving skills, or using botanics on a plant, or more mechanics on a panel of the wall.

Can i do this? Do they plan to do this in the future? Something.

Cheers.

Jakdstripper

most of us can't even understand if this is a video game, or some sort of elaborate social experiment.

i guess the "plans" are many....the implementation is pretty much anyone's guess. the  only sure thing so far is that this particular box shall be filled with whatever your wallet can afford (sand, dirt, gold, diamonds....) 

TiamatRoar

They plan to have land plots and customizable housing (they're already selling the land despite it not even existing yet).  A long time ago they had a manifesto or whatever on economy where you'd set up all sorts of production chains and nodes etc throughout the galaxy too but that was many years ago and I don't think it's been brought up again.

Of course, what they plan and what they'll actually have at this rate is rather up in the air. (easy enough to say you'll have customizable non-instanced housing and apparently easy enough to sell it before it exists. Not so easy to actually have it)

The stuff you described is basic mining of resource nodes under a different name and not really something I'd consider to be a sandbox thing specifically.

Gylfi

DMKano said:

Even if you could do all of that - that still wouldnt make the game a sandbox game IMO. (Btw I dont think there is anything like what you wrote in Star Citizen)

Why not??

Sandbox means that players are given the tools to create and alter the game in any way they want - this simply can never work in a MMO setting because players would make directly conflicting rules that would be impossible to be enforced simultaneously. 

players are given tools to alter the game. That's exactly what i said but in a practical way.
What do you mean it can't work in a MMO, Ultima did it 20 years ago!

But it can work in single player games just fine - example Minecraft where you can mod and change every aspect of the game as you wish. 

rpmcmurphy

Some fans like to call it a sandbox but it really isn't, at least not yet.

It would be more appropriate to call it a sandpark. It has sandbox features (ie player created missions) and themepark features, scripted missions, non player controlled economy and so on.

Regardless, there is so little gameplay and so few game features no one, including CIG, really knows what direction they will eventually head in.

Gylfi

TiamatRoar said:

The stuff you described is basic mining of resource nodes under a different name and not really something I'd consider to be a sandbox thing specifically.

Sure, and mining has always been probably the quintessential agency in a SANDbox, imo (along with lumberjacking and fishing). It's the concept behind stealing too, and basically how we live in the real world. The concept of a skill applied from the character to an environment through a skill CHECK, that is, a dice roll, is probably the particle of God of simulating something. HOW exactly is it not a sandbox thing???

It seems you guys have over complicated and stereotypical definitions of sandbox, you don't get to the essence. Sandbox is simply more ways to "touch" a virtual environment than just walk, talk, push buttons and shoot

NorseGod

rpmcmurphy said:

Regardless, there is so little gameplay and so few game features no one, including CIG, really knows what direction they will eventually head in.

But, they'll advertise those features as facts, regardless. 

Gylfi

rpmcmurphy said:

Some fans like to call it a sandbox but it really isn't, at least not yet.

It would be more appropriate to call it a sandpark. It has sandbox features (ie player created missions) and themepark features, scripted missions, non player controlled economy and so on.

Regardless, there is so little gameplay and so few game features no one, including CIG, really knows what direction they will eventually head in.

Ah that's sad to hear. They spent so much time and money on cosmetic things, they forgot to make a solid UI that lets you actually do something with the world. But hey, space combat is good.

Kefo

Gylfi said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Some fans like to call it a sandbox but it really isn't, at least not yet.

It would be more appropriate to call it a sandpark. It has sandbox features (ie player created missions) and themepark features, scripted missions, non player controlled economy and so on.

Regardless, there is so little gameplay and so few game features no one, including CIG, really knows what direction they will eventually head in.

Ah that's sad to hear. They spent so much time and money on cosmetic things, they forgot to make a solid UI that lets you actually do something with the world. But hey, space combat is good.

Don’t buy it until it’s an actual finished release. Then wait another 6-12 months to make sure what they released wasn’t just to appease the investors they brought on to bail out their sinking ship.

NorseGod

@Gylfi This studio will literally tell you anything.

I don't care to remember the year I backed this game, but I can tell you the era of promised features I backed it.

That was when docking collars were a game mechanic and you could be a pirate who docks with other ships and board them.

So I did research and bought a "pirate" ship (Cutlass Black).

>But, wait the Cutlass Black is a multi-crew ship and I'm a solo player.

That's ok, because this was also the era of promised features that included hiring NPCs for your crew, AI mods to control your turrets, and modulated ships so you can change the layout of your ship for the role you needed.

Modulated ships then became variants. I mean why sell a ship that you can configure for different roles when you can sell three variants of the same ship to fit each role and triple your money?

Take the Mercury Starunner as another example. Watch the Q&A videos about that ship. Listen to what they say you will be able to do with that ship. Listen to how you will be boarded and inspected by LEO NPCs for illegal contraband. Take note.

Then, try to find any documentation or tech demos with any of those mechanics existing.

Or pick the Caterpillar (modules) or Hull Series (spindles). I doesn't matter what you pick.

The only way to find the truth, unfortunately, is to buy a ship and find out yourself. No Refunds!

Wizardry

Well imo Atlas is sandbox but because it really appears that a high majority only care about pvp ALL games are suffering from bad implementation.In Atlas we can change the game world,build anywhere and could still operate properly as a MMO,so it most certainly is possible.It is not possible in SC because Robert's bit off way more than he can chew,a space sim game is way too big of a scope to it right unless you really have a well planned long term vision."he did not have any such vision or planning"
I know Eve survives on pvp and i assume SC will survive on pvp but idk why,pvp doesn't work in any setting outside of first person shooter.

I had a vision of what SC would be a very long time ago and it is not a good picture,a waste of a lot of time and money.I figure Chris Robert's will have spent all those millions...years on delivering what will amount to about 1-2 months of gameplay...tops.Once players are bored of that it will simply be pvp.

My hunch as to why this game has even survived this long is the simple reality that a lot of people just like spending  money foolishly,they like buying all those different ships to look at in their hangars.Even a dumbass is smart enough to realize that phase wears off fast but luckily for them,Robert's keeps an endless supply of new ships to buy and this trend will go on forever.

So those 3 parts is imo the entire game and none of those 3 parts interests me.I am not going to write an essay explaining how a space sim game SHOULD be designed but i will say SC is NOT it ,not well done at all,a complete waste of millions of dollars.

Gylfi

Wizardry said:

Well imo Atlas is sandbox but because it really appears that a high majority only care about pvp ALL games are suffering from bad implementation.In Atlas we can change the game world,build anywhere and could still operate properly as a MMO,so it most certainly is possible.It is not possible in SC because Robert's bit off way more than he can chew,a space sim game is way too big of a scope to it right unless you really have a well planned long term vision."he did not have any such vision or planning"
I know Eve survives on pvp and i assume SC will survive on pvp but idk why,pvp doesn't work in any setting outside of first person shooter.

I had a vision of what SC would be a very long time ago and it is not a good picture,a waste of a lot of time and money.I figure Chris Robert's will have spent all those millions...years on delivering what will amount to about 1-2 months of gameplay...tops.Once players are bored of that it will simply be pvp.

My hunch as to why this game has even survived this long is the simple reality that a lot of people just like spending  money foolishly,they like buying all those different ships to look at in their hangars.Even a dumbass is smart enough to realize that phase wears off fast but luckily for them,Robert's keeps an endless supply of new ships to buy and this trend will go on forever.

So those 3 parts is imo the entire game and none of those 3 parts interests me.I am not going to write an essay explaining how a space sim game SHOULD be designed but i will say SC is NOT it ,not well done at all,a complete waste of millions of dollars.

well i hate that the game is mostly looks etc as you guys say, but tbh i think that pretty graphics, a working, solid space flight model and a trace of PvP system that, god forbid, has an inkling of territorial conquest for resource exploitment, all could simply be just enough to keep the game afloat.

Also the concept of different ships (like the pirate ship Norsegod mentioned) that each represents a skill and a profession (like thieving) could be exactly what i was asking for. A skill that, with a "skill check", lets you obtain stuff if succesfully done. It's no wonder infact that mining is done with a specific ship.

So i expect an "engineering" ship that lets me do mechanical skill checks on things, like fixing stations and stuff. Sure, it's not exactly what i asked in the OP, but it's close. It's just not done on foot. Then i expect the salvaging ship. That's all sandbox gameplay, isn't it? A profession system, provided it's interesting and compelling.

NorseGod

Gylfi said:

Wizardry said:

 territorial conquest for resource exploitment

For what? Mining is just another way to make credits on par with other activities. It's not like you can craft anything. The 49 other people in your shard/instance may not want to pvp without any incentive.

There's a chance that you're just going to be a gunner or janitor on some rich guy's 25-man ship fighting another rich guy's 25-man ship. They didn't spend those thousands of dollars to not fly them.

Like most guilds/orgs/corps, you'll be expected to drop what you're doing to help leadership get what they  want done.

Gylfi

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

Wizardry said:

 territorial conquest for resource exploitment

For what? Mining is just another way to make credits on par with other activities. It's not like you can craft anything. The 49 other people in your shard/instance may not want to pvp without any incentive.

There's a chance that you're just going to be a gunner or janitor on some rich guy's 25-man ship fighting another rich guy's 25-man ship. They didn't spend those thousands of dollars to not fly them.

Like most guilds/orgs/corps, you'll be expected to drop what you're doing to help leadership get what they  want done.

sounds tons more fun than any WoW clone, so any game after WoW.

So it seems to me that in SC the sandbox is all in the careers. As long as i can do them seamlessly, not with the damn NPC's that tell me where to go and what to do with their trading "quests and missions", like in the WoW clones

Hyperpsycrow

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

Gylfi

DarkestOverlord said:

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. I think SC is a serious game that includes a system that allows CIG to make more money to make a better game. I'm fine with it. I think many in the internet over focus on memes like i can't wait for my grandchildren to play this game and stuff. I usually go beyond prejudice and tend to join the "evil corporation". 

rpmcmurphy

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. I think SC is a serious game that includes a system that allows CIG to make more money to make a better game.

The problem here is that it hasn't made a better game. If anything it has made it worse...

Originally it had a much tighter pitch but as the money rolled in it has just ballooned into this "everything for all men" monstrosity. 

So far they have spent over $250 million and what they have delivered is the worst value for your money I have ever seen. That is not going to change if they take another $250 million.

NorseGod

Prime_Directive said:

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

Wizardry said:

You are thinking about Star Citizen as a tradition game. This is why your analysis is kind of misguided. Players will be able to build corporations. Imagine "The Expanse" with millions of players partaking in a variety of available directions. No skill system, no progression, it's you with a gun and ship, #Begin 

Of those "millions of players", you can only see 49 of them on your shard/instance.

Also, there is no incentive for territorial control. There is no deep meaning or reason to "grab a gun and ship".

Gylfi

rpmcmurphy said:

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. I think SC is a serious game that includes a system that allows CIG to make more money to make a better game.

"everything for all men" monstrosity. 

What is that? 
I don't understand what you're complaining about. It seems you don't accept all the money spent, the system to get more funds, and this "everything for all men" which i hope you'll clarify for me.

I don't get it: as long as there are interesting careers and hopefully no hand-holding quests (a player should generate his own tasks, always), i don't see what's wrong with this game.

I asked for a series of skills that each let you interact with the game world. like Fallout (the only true ones, from Black Isle), or Deus Ex, and combined make for a profession. Now if each profession, or career, gives you something fun to do with a ship, and with it you fly, travel and do your trade, sounds like a good game to me.

Sure, if a profession is just shooting with a laser at some stones, and flying around with some cargo, that's no fun. But if done properly, it sounds like a fine sandbox mmo.

NorseGod

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. I think SC is a serious game that includes a system that allows CIG to make more money to make a better game. I'm fine with it. I think many in the internet over focus on memes like i can't wait for my grandchildren to play this game and stuff. I usually go beyond prejudice and tend to join the "evil corporation". 

Here's an article from one of those conspiracy theory sites, Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#324374d05ac9

Here's what I recommend. Pad their statistics and give them $45 to find out. Then, in a few months, come back and tell us your experience. But remember, no refunds.

NorseGod

Gylfi said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Sure, if a profession is just shooting with a laser at some stones, and flying around with some cargo, that's no fun. 

If somebody tells you there is more to the game than that (excluding pvp with no purpose), ask them for documentation or a demo. Pin them down, don't let them change the topic, don't let them link some webcast where they make it all up on the spot and never heard about again.

You'll see why so many people are raising the BS flag.

Here's the typical SC conversation:

Marketing Firm: We beat all records raising hundreds of millions of dollars and have 500 employees.

Gamers: Sounds awesome! What do you have to show for all that?

Marketing Firm: OMG! We only made hundreds of millions of dollars and only have 500 employees, hater!

Gamers: :S

Marketing Firm: Want to see some pretty .jpgs made in-game, in editor mode, instead of asking questions?

Gamers: Not really, bye.

Marketing Firm: Wait! We just happen to have a new concept ship for sale for a limited time only! Come back!

TiamatRoar

You clearly think Star Citizen is a sandbox for some reason and are defending it, so I suggest you support it by buying some really big ships and join the verse.

Gylfi

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Stay away from space roberts "game" The only game he is playing is creating spaceships for you to buy for insane amounts of money..its a pyramid scheme  google it !

i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. I think SC is a serious game that includes a system that allows CIG to make more money to make a better game. I'm fine with it. I think many in the internet over focus on memes like i can't wait for my grandchildren to play this game and stuff. I usually go beyond prejudice and tend to join the "evil corporation". 

Here's an article from one of those conspiracy theory sites, Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#324374d05ac9

Here's what I recommend. Pad their statistics and give them $45 to find out. Then, in a few months, come back and tell us your experience. But remember, no refunds.

the article is sensationalist trash.

Gylfi

TiamatRoar said:

You clearly think Star Citizen is a sandbox for some reason and are defending it, so I suggest you support it by buying some really big ships and join the verse.

i don't think much about SC. I have no idea how careers actually work, if they're any interesting or if they give players enough freedom. If the professions are done well, if they're well articulated in many activities, if they simulate how things happen in reality, then it's sandbox. 

All i have is my ideas: as i said Sandbox is objectively and impartially one thing: substantial interaction with a gameworld. If everything's just for show like a tunnel ride, then there's no sandbox. Sandbox is simulation, like Ultima Online, which tried to recreate the processes of professions.

you guys clearly know more than i do, but are a bit scared by all this money rush talk. Who cares. 

If you can just explain to me how exactly any one profession in the game works, we can decide if it's sandbox, or silly crafting like in WoW. The depth of interaction, its quality, its degree of simulation, easily decrees the truth.

NorseGod

Gylfi said:

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Here's an article from one of those conspiracy theory sites, Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#324374d05ac9

Here's what I recommend. Pad their statistics and give them $45 to find out. Then, in a few months, come back and tell us your experience. But remember, no refunds.

the article is sensationalist trash.

Ok, good luck.

Gylfi

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

NorseGod said:

Gylfi said:

DarkestOverlord said:

Here's an article from one of those conspiracy theory sites, Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#324374d05ac9

Here's what I recommend. Pad their statistics and give them $45 to find out. Then, in a few months, come back and tell us your experience. But remember, no refunds.

the article is sensationalist trash.

Ok, good luck.

It's a panic enticing article but it states one thing:

It's not fraud, Roberts is trying to make the game.

Who cares if they fail? I didn't back a dime! But you guys waste time imagining them plotting ways to keep up the sham, or if they're packing their money and planning to run. Or maybe you picture Roberts planting C4 in the buildings because the whole thing got more bloated than Tetsuo in Akira, and you're afraid it blows up in a nuclear apocalypse. It's all a waste of time. Let's just hope good game content is added so as to make for good careers with a sandbox depth.

I will buy the game, but first i gotta buy the HOTAS, then a new computer (got a 20 years old pc atm), then the game, so it's gonna be years

But no, heheh you picture Chris Roberts like a mad scientist who can't manage money and his own thoughts, and has ideas over ideas over ideas like a Frankenstein on cocaine, and you imagine CIG as an inferno of ppl crying and others banging their heads on the walls, with money running out, time running out, and "one planet done, 1.999 to go". Ridiculous.

It's the biggest title in the history of videogaming! It's a frontier! Frontiers are messy and scary. Buckle up!