actually the best tank is the one who keep the boss from moving, or placing him in the right spot, support the most heals, the rest dps, unless the game is like blade and soul, then anyone really can tank, just dps his ass away
I am not a fan of damage meters because it ends up turning the game into a contest to see who does the most damage.
Who is the best tank, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best healer, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best support/CC, well the one who does the most dmg.
Aka this above is pure stupidity but it is how the community in general works when parsers are involved.
In a game like pantheon hopefully it is more of a game where Maximizing dps 100% of the time is not the best way to go. More like the FFXI or Older model where a dps going full out 100% of the time is literally just going to pull agro and die a horrible death. I am a not a fan of the current model of Tanks pull unlimited threat. Aka FFXIV where tanks generate around 10xs the threat of a dps, auto attacks can almost hold threat in that game.......
Well, that would be the dream but then again, one would need a damage meter so that they knew when to pull back.
Personally I don't like having stats and numbers all over my game but I guess some people love it.
I was going to say that I never used specific rotations (or damage meters/are they even a thing in Lord of the Rings Online?) in Lord of the Rings Online, even in the few raids I took part in (and we didn't die) but some of the abilities immediately open up other abilities so there is a sort of built in rotation there.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am not a fan of damage meters because it ends up turning the game into a contest to see who does the most damage.
Who is the best tank, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best healer, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best support/CC, well the one who does the most dmg.
Aka this above is pure stupidity but it is how the community in general works when parsers are involved.
In a game like pantheon hopefully it is more of a game where Maximizing dps 100% of the time is not the best way to go. More like the FFXI or Older model where a dps going full out 100% of the time is literally just going to pull agro and die a horrible death. I am a not a fan of the current model of Tanks pull unlimited threat. Aka FFXIV where tanks generate around 10xs the threat of a dps, auto attacks can almost hold threat in that game.......
Well, that would be the dream but then again, one would need a damage meter so that they knew when to pull back.
Personally I don't like having stats and numbers all over my game but I guess some people love it.
I was going to say that I never used specific rotations in Lord of the Rings Online, even in the few raids I took part in (and we didn't die) but some of the abilities immediately open up other abilities so there is a sort of built in rotation there.
Was done in the past without them. FFXI never had parsers until more currently and people learned to manage threat, knew when to let tanks build agro, knew what tier spells to cast at what times. It was just a different way of playing the game. Where mob threat was a party responsibility not a tank responsibility.
Damage meters use to really get my blood pumping back in 05 when classic was serious business for me. I had a raid leader with a mouth like the drill sergeant from full metal jacket and if your numbers weren't up to snuff he would ream your ass on vent during the encounter. It was chaotic & nerve racking but got my blood pumping, I'd be watching the boss, then watching the meter, then the boss and so on.
Raid leaders often say don't focus on damage meters, don't play to the meters, don't pad the meters, do your job, be in the right place, follow instructions, help other people,interrupt, debuff, etc. And then they want to talk about why Johnny is behind Susie on the damage meter lol.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm not a fan of damage meters. To me, they cut into that element of role playing by providing hard statistical data on your character's performance. I don't want numbers indicating to me what I should be doing, I'd rather see it in the mob's behavior. If I am supposed to be supporting the attack against a mob and the mob attacks me, I should back off, fight defensively, or use some skill to reduce my threat to the mob. With a decrease in my threat, the mob should be left to those trying to attract and keep the mobs attention. "If the dragon is looking at me, I did something wrong. If the dragon is eating me, I did something really wrong."
I'd prefer just to remove all records of damage from the game. That includes the combat log that games like EQ1 had, and many log analyzers parsed to come up with DPS numbers. One aspect for removing HPs from a game (something I've always been keen about) is to remove notification of HP changes to the players. No floaty numbers. No numerical combat logs. Just provide feedback that "That was a good hit", or "Solid contact", or "I think I got him" instead of numerical values. There's much more uncertainty, and combat should be uncertain; it makes things more interesting.
Damage meters do have a very important purpose, though. In development. They can help track and document problems. Still, I don't see a reason to push these metrics out to the client side. Keep the combat logs on the server side where only the development team has access.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm not a fan of damage meters. To me, they cut into that element of role playing by providing hard statistical data on your character's performance. I don't want numbers indicating to me what I should be doing, I'd rather see it in the mob's behavior. If I am supposed to be supporting the attack against a mob and the mob attacks me, I should back off, fight defensively, or use some skill to reduce my threat to the mob. With a decrease in my threat, the mob should be left to those trying to attract and keep the mobs attention. "If the dragon is looking at me, I did something wrong. If the dragon is eating me, I did something really wrong."
I'd prefer just to remove all records of damage from the game. That includes the combat log that games like EQ1 had, and many log analyzers parsed to come up with DPS numbers. One aspect for removing HPs from a game (something I've always been keen about) is to remove notification of HP changes to the players. No floaty numbers. No numerical combat logs. Just provide feedback that "That was a good hit", or "Solid contact", or "I think I got him" instead of numerical values. There's much more uncertainty, and combat should be uncertain; it makes things more interesting.
Damage meters do have a very important purpose, though. In development. They can help track and document problems. Still, I don't see a reason to push these metrics out to the client side. Keep the combat logs on the server side where only the development team has access.
I completely agree with this.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am not a fan of damage meters because it ends up turning the game into a contest to see who does the most damage.
Who is the best tank, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best healer, well the one who does the most dmg.
Who is the best support/CC, well the one who does the most dmg.
Aka this above is pure stupidity but it is how the community in general works when parsers are involved.
In a game like pantheon hopefully it is more of a game where Maximizing dps 100% of the time is not the best way to go. More like the FFXI or Older model where a dps going full out 100% of the time is literally just going to pull agro and die a horrible death. I am a not a fan of the current model of Tanks pull unlimited threat. Aka FFXIV where tanks generate around 10xs the threat of a dps, auto attacks can almost hold threat in that game.......
Well, that would be the dream but then again, one would need a damage meter so that they knew when to pull back.
Personally I don't like having stats and numbers all over my game but I guess some people love it.
I was going to say that I never used specific rotations in Lord of the Rings Online, even in the few raids I took part in (and we didn't die) but some of the abilities immediately open up other abilities so there is a sort of built in rotation there.
Was done in the past without them. FFXI never had parsers until more currently and people learned to manage threat, knew when to let tanks build agro, knew what tier spells to cast at what times. It was just a different way of playing the game. Where mob threat was a party responsibility not a tank responsibility.
the best is when you tell the dps peeps to hold back a little to build agro then they say they won't and it the tank problem to keep agro, then cry when teh group get wiped, these are the best
1 equation I see alot especially in max level vet dungeons/mythic dungeons/hard modes is the boss isnt dieing fast enough, not that dps is standing in fire, but there not meeting enrage timers/windows of damage and eventually get widdled down or just 1 shot due to enrages or miss the time record.
Now if you have 2-3 dps and your not meeting the timers, what do you do? Give up? Or do you find a suitable replacement? Sure sometimes someone knows there not performing and admits and leaves, but more of the time they know there not meeting it and want to be carried so stay silent so they can be, or they dont think they are the problem. Regardless of the reasoning, should 3-4 other players be forced to just stop there progression, cause they cant remedy the group? IF THEY CHOOSE TOO. Should this be the norm, no, it shouldnt. But should be an option. Me myself, im not a add-on guy. I like playing a game for how its presented to me, most companies do fine to my standards.
Yes there abused, but what isnt? Miss used, anything can be miss used. E-Peen flexing, sure, but people thrive on competition, some peoples best moments are when there being challenged and over come it. The big thing about classic is people grouping randomly in the world for dungeons/groups. So saying you should run with people you know/guild with if you wanna push content/get things done, goes against what people enjoy about community (according to classic players)
Raid leaders often say don't focus on damage meters, don't play to the meters, don't pad the meters, do your job, be in the right place, follow instructions, help other people,interrupt, debuff, etc. And then they want to talk about why Johnny is behind Susie on the damage meter lol.
I really don't have an issue with this for members of raiding guilds but often such behaviors filter down to the random PUG level which is a big reason why I don't play group centric games or run with PUGs
Would be nice if a MMO with a matching system would let players rate their interest and intensity so as to reduce frustration on all sides.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To me, parses should be a background tool used for raiding.. actually tweaking performance within certain raids. You don't need to see your dps on trash mobs in some basic dungeon. When used right I have seen some mediocre dps turn into very good dps by seeing where they were, learning from guildies and what not. Ive also seen some people get reprimanded because the parse showed they were afking each fight.
Im all for parses, as long as they are not built INTO the game. if they were id like an option to turn on and off.
I keep reading that damage meter is ruining X thing , has no place in games , etc. If you can't play your character right to actually do a decent amount of damage in a fight, then chances are, that you will also fail to cc, interrupt, etc properly in a fight, which will lead to wipes and/or group disbanding.
It also seems that you guys like to play on your "own peace" and only group up here and there, which in the end, it seems that all you actually want is a single player game with a multiplayer option and not a MMO. In every game, be it single player, multi player or MMO, you want to progress. You want to be stronger, right? So I actually fail to realize , how a damage meter is doing more wrong then good for you.
Now, don't get me wrong, to each his own. Play the game(s) as you want, but .. for those who played say..Witcher 3 and you struggled to kill a boss. Did you google how to actually defeat that boss? Did you got better in that fight after you've read the strategy, what skills/items you need to use in-fight to actually survive and be able to do the damage it needs to kill that boss? That's a question I would like to get an answer from the people who are against damage meters. If the answer is Yes, then why is it any different to learn your class in a MMO?
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Last night, in a group of irl friends we were doing a dungeon, and normally, I was top dps. However, this run, I saw that one of my friends was out damaging me in almost every fight. This situation then lead to a funny ..DPS race for the entire dungeon.
Point is, Damage Meter is very good to see how well you are doing in a dungeon compared to others and if you are struggling, then there is good reason that you are doing something wrong, which will lead you to search the internet and get to know your class/spec/etc better.
Another exemple is, I was doing a SM Lib run with randoms and there was this warlock which I ( as a tank ) would out damage him in almost every fight. This lead to several wipes because we lacked damage by lot.
Normally, the ones who are against damage meters are the ones who goes by "is a game, relax". Yes, it is a game, but do your job well , or else go play with friends or solo and don't ruin other's run by not wanting to actually play your class as it should be. Wanna play it on your own peace? Again, go solo! Nothing wrong to do that, but .. messing dungeon run's with other people, is just bad.
Is nothing "elitism" in here. Is like playing Counter Strike, LoL, etc and you just go in without a strategy, and .."suicide" yourself because.."is just a game and you are playing it for fun".
Search the internet to learn to play...because a damage meter said you weren't doing it right?
This is exactly the issue with damage meters. Are you making progress and killing bosses? Then you are doing fine. When damage meters become an epeen measuring contest for asshat Dps, that is an issue.
Do away with meters and go back to the old way, are we winning? Yes, cool let's keep moving. No, let's try something else. Also, addons that tell you where to stand, which skill to throw next, etc, all trash.
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Damage meters were a great concept for improving one's understanding of their own abilities and rotations, etc.
Unfortunately, like all technological or insightful things, idiots turned it into a nightmare. I think it's something that should only function in guild groups/raids and be completely blocked in PUGs and such.
There's nothing worse than those random wannabe "elite" players who obsess over DPS meters in some random pointless dungeon PUG.
Maybe DPS meter should be completely blocked until everyone in the group votes to turn it on for a unanimous decision or something.
Personally, I more like the idea of "seeing" damage rather than floating numbers. The more beat-up and bloody looking the enemy is, the closer to death.
I'm a big believer in abstraction for games. Games are like an illusionist's magic tricks. It's much better when the audience doesn't know every little detail.
Last night, in a group of irl friends we were doing a dungeon, and normally, I was top dps. However, this run, I saw that one of my friends was out damaging me in almost every fight. This situation then lead to a funny ..DPS race for the entire dungeon.
Point is, Damage Meter is very good to see how well you are doing in a dungeon compared to others and if you are struggling, then there is good reason that you are doing something wrong, which will lead you to search the internet and get to know your class/spec/etc better.
Another exemple is, I was doing a SM Lib run with randoms and there was this warlock which I ( as a tank ) would out damage him in almost every fight. This lead to several wipes because we lacked damage by lot.
Normally, the ones who are against damage meters are the ones who goes by "is a game, relax". Yes, it is a game, but do your job well , or else go play with friends or solo and don't ruin other's run by not wanting to actually play your class as it should be. Wanna play it on your own peace? Again, go solo! Nothing wrong to do that, but .. messing dungeon run's with other people, is just bad.
Is nothing "elitism" in here. Is like playing Counter Strike, LoL, etc and you just go in without a strategy, and .."suicide" yourself because.."is just a game and you are playing it for fun".
Are you making progress and killing bosses?
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
Except, if you can't do damage ( aka know your class, what skills to use, when to use them, what talents, etc ) , you are not progressing and ..killing bosses. I mean sure, if by that you mean you can stay hours in a dungeon ( which normally would take 30 mins to complete ), then yes! You are making ...progress and kill bosses.
Yes, I agree. Learn to play by playing. But.. learn. Learn to rotate your skills, learn to use them wisely, learn to cc, etc. But learn. If you do that, then this post is not for you. I can now play WoW ( because this is the game I'm talking about ) without a damage meter because i know how to play properly now and just keep it to see stats ( for me and others ).
I never said that damage meter is a must for everyone. If you are learning by playing the game and you do fine in dungeons, raids, etc, then .. you have nothing to worry about. Me however, damage meter helped me to realize, how bad was I doing in comparation with others, which leaded me to actually learn my class by reading forums, watching videos, etc.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Last night, in a group of irl friends we were doing a dungeon, and normally, I was top dps. However, this run, I saw that one of my friends was out damaging me in almost every fight. This situation then lead to a funny ..DPS race for the entire dungeon.
Point is, Damage Meter is very good to see how well you are doing in a dungeon compared to others and if you are struggling, then there is good reason that you are doing something wrong, which will lead you to search the internet and get to know your class/spec/etc better.
Another exemple is, I was doing a SM Lib run with randoms and there was this warlock which I ( as a tank ) would out damage him in almost every fight. This lead to several wipes because we lacked damage by lot.
Normally, the ones who are against damage meters are the ones who goes by "is a game, relax". Yes, it is a game, but do your job well , or else go play with friends or solo and don't ruin other's run by not wanting to actually play your class as it should be. Wanna play it on your own peace? Again, go solo! Nothing wrong to do that, but .. messing dungeon run's with other people, is just bad.
Is nothing "elitism" in here. Is like playing Counter Strike, LoL, etc and you just go in without a strategy, and .."suicide" yourself because.."is just a game and you are playing it for fun".
Search the internet to learn to play...because a damage meter said you weren't doing it right?
This is exactly the issue with damage meters. Are you making progress and killing bosses? Then you are doing fine. When damage meters become an epeen measuring contest for asshat Dps, that is an issue.
Do away with meters and go back to the old way, are we winning? Yes, cool let's keep moving. No, let's try something else. Also, addons that tell you where to stand, which skill to throw next, etc, all trash.
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
Yeah, and what happens when you dont kill the boss?
What if you dont kill the boss because the DPS was not adequate because someone is either sandbagging or just doesnt know what they are doing?
You could either wipe to the boss a bunch more times which would lead to everyone getting angry and pointing fingers at each other until maybe you the person that isnt pulling their weight or just have a DPS meter.
Now, lets say the person didnt know what they were doing, someone more familiar with the class could look at their meter and tell them "hey, use this skill like this and not that skill" to help them out. Or without DPS meters the person gets kicked and doesnt learn anything and becomes bitter with the game and quits.
DPS meters can be a tool to learn and help others.
Nope because there used to be classes that just stand there and make everyone elses damage better so there is more ways to contribute to a fight than dps + aoe damagers always get highest without necessarily being the most useful.
That's nonsense. Games with good battle systems have complex rotations with a lot of situational if/then alternatives. I think the problem is your misunderstanding that rotations imply brain dead simplicity. They don't. There are simple ones in simple games and more complex ones in complex games as well.
And there are always better and worse ways of reacting to situations and sequencing your response. Good rotations are an intelligent optimal response to game stimulus as opposed to just throwing shit out there and hoping something works.
The irony is that damage meters do a terrible job of measuring 'optimal response'... cast a CC spell or interrupt: DPS loss... cleanse a debuff: DPS loss... cast an emergency heal: DPS loss... use a support ability that isn't directly DPS related: DPS loss... the only thing damage meters do is make those who don't respond to a situation look good as they sit there and press buttons in a pre-determined 'best' order.
And specifically in the case of Pantheon, and a game that will (hopefully) be a about far more than 'optimal DPS', damage meters would be a terrible idea.
Last night, in a group of irl friends we were doing a dungeon, and normally, I was top dps. However, this run, I saw that one of my friends was out damaging me in almost every fight. This situation then lead to a funny ..DPS race for the entire dungeon.
Point is, Damage Meter is very good to see how well you are doing in a dungeon compared to others and if you are struggling, then there is good reason that you are doing something wrong, which will lead you to search the internet and get to know your class/spec/etc better.
Another exemple is, I was doing a SM Lib run with randoms and there was this warlock which I ( as a tank ) would out damage him in almost every fight. This lead to several wipes because we lacked damage by lot.
Normally, the ones who are against damage meters are the ones who goes by "is a game, relax". Yes, it is a game, but do your job well , or else go play with friends or solo and don't ruin other's run by not wanting to actually play your class as it should be. Wanna play it on your own peace? Again, go solo! Nothing wrong to do that, but .. messing dungeon run's with other people, is just bad.
Is nothing "elitism" in here. Is like playing Counter Strike, LoL, etc and you just go in without a strategy, and .."suicide" yourself because.."is just a game and you are playing it for fun".
Are you making progress and killing bosses?
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
Except, if you can't do damage ( aka know your class, what skills to use, when to use them, what talents, etc ) , you are not progressing and ..killing bosses. I mean sure, if by that you mean you can stay hours in a dungeon ( which normally would take 30 mins to complete ), then yes! You are making ...progress and kill bosses.
Yes, I agree. Learn to play by playing. But.. learn. Learn to rotate your skills, learn to use them wisely, learn to cc, etc. But learn. If you do that, then this post is not for you. I can now play WoW ( because this is the game I'm talking about ) without a damage meter because i know how to play properly now and just keep it to see stats ( for me and others ).
I never said that damage meter is a must for everyone. If you are learning by playing the game and you do fine in dungeons, raids, etc, then .. you have nothing to worry about. Me however, damage meter helped me to realize, how bad was I doing in comparation with others, which leaded me to actually learn my class by reading forums, watching videos, etc.
Last night, in a group of irl friends we were doing a dungeon, and normally, I was top dps. However, this run, I saw that one of my friends was out damaging me in almost every fight. This situation then lead to a funny ..DPS race for the entire dungeon.
Point is, Damage Meter is very good to see how well you are doing in a dungeon compared to others and if you are struggling, then there is good reason that you are doing something wrong, which will lead you to search the internet and get to know your class/spec/etc better.
Another exemple is, I was doing a SM Lib run with randoms and there was this warlock which I ( as a tank ) would out damage him in almost every fight. This lead to several wipes because we lacked damage by lot.
Normally, the ones who are against damage meters are the ones who goes by "is a game, relax". Yes, it is a game, but do your job well , or else go play with friends or solo and don't ruin other's run by not wanting to actually play your class as it should be. Wanna play it on your own peace? Again, go solo! Nothing wrong to do that, but .. messing dungeon run's with other people, is just bad.
Is nothing "elitism" in here. Is like playing Counter Strike, LoL, etc and you just go in without a strategy, and .."suicide" yourself because.."is just a game and you are playing it for fun".
Search the internet to learn to play...because a damage meter said you weren't doing it right?
This is exactly the issue with damage meters. Are you making progress and killing bosses? Then you are doing fine. When damage meters become an epeen measuring contest for asshat Dps, that is an issue.
Do away with meters and go back to the old way, are we winning? Yes, cool let's keep moving. No, let's try something else. Also, addons that tell you where to stand, which skill to throw next, etc, all trash.
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
Yeah, and what happens when you dont kill the boss?
What if you dont kill the boss because the DPS was not adequate because someone is either sandbagging or just doesnt know what they are doing?
You could either wipe to the boss a bunch more times which would lead to everyone getting angry and pointing fingers at each other until maybe you the person that isnt pulling their weight or just have a DPS meter.
Now, lets say the person didnt know what they were doing, someone more familiar with the class could look at their meter and tell them "hey, use this skill like this and not that skill" to help them out. Or without DPS meters the person gets kicked and doesnt learn anything and becomes bitter with the game and quits.
DPS meters can be a tool to learn and help others.
Believe it or not, we did a whole bunch of dungeons without any type of meters, hand-holding, etc. We learned our class, we learned the dungeon, and we played the game.
DPS meters, or anything else is absolutely not necessary. It's only this surge of instant gratification seekers that think this is a must, it's not. I didn't care at all how long it took (back when I was a raid tank) to get through an encounter, its part of the game. Or was I should say.
As pointed out by these two, gotta go faster, gotta get dem loots now! Bullshit.
It's only partially their (and people like them) fault. The game studios pander to this style of play, and on a couple of levels, it makes sense. Few people have 10 hours a day to give to dungeons so they need/want to but out the grind asap so they can get to the next. I get that.
But overall, if you play an MMORPG to raid, and you consider blasting through a raid as fast as possible using every addon and crutch available, to the point you aren't even watching the fight, just watching your app to see where you need to stand next...why? Raiding is supposed to be hard, require teamwork and not be done in a 30 minute time window. Well it was supposed to be like that.
Here is an idea, just start everyone at max level, give them top tier raid kit for starter kit and let them stand around the major city telling each other how great they are. That is essentially what all this new crap comes down to.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
That's nonsense. Games with good battle systems have complex rotations with a lot of situational if/then alternatives. I think the problem is your misunderstanding that rotations imply brain dead simplicity. They don't. There are simple ones in simple games and more complex ones in complex games as well.
And there are always better and worse ways of reacting to situations and sequencing your response. Good rotations are an intelligent optimal response to game stimulus as opposed to just throwing shit out there and hoping something works.
The irony is that damage meters do a terrible job of measuring 'optimal response'... cast a CC spell or interrupt: DPS loss... cleanse a debuff: DPS loss... cast an emergency heal: DPS loss... use a support ability that isn't directly DPS related: DPS loss... the only thing damage meters do is make those who don't respond to a situation look good as they sit there and press buttons in a pre-determined 'best' order.
And specifically in the case of Pantheon, and a game that will (hopefully) be a about far more than 'optimal DPS', damage meters would be a terrible idea.
What does my post have to do with damage meters when I already said above those posts that they are useful for tweaking your own rotation but I don't like the ones that also measure other player's damage? Looking good to who exactly?
I was responding to Sorvath implying that there is something wrong with having rotations in the first place and that post you quoted is about rotations, not damage meters. And of course your optimal DPS rotation will suffer on the damage front when things are not going smoothly and the group is in scramble mode... sheesh the reading comprehension around here.
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That's nonsense. Games with good battle systems have complex rotations with a lot of situational if/then alternatives. I think the problem is your misunderstanding that rotations imply brain dead simplicity. They don't. There are simple ones in simple games and more complex ones in complex games as well.
And there are always better and worse ways of reacting to situations and sequencing your response. Good rotations are an intelligent optimal response to game stimulus as opposed to just throwing shit out there and hoping something works.
The irony is that damage meters do a terrible job of measuring 'optimal response'... cast a CC spell or interrupt: DPS loss... cleanse a debuff: DPS loss... cast an emergency heal: DPS loss... use a support ability that isn't directly DPS related: DPS loss... the only thing damage meters do is make those who don't respond to a situation look good as they sit there and press buttons in a pre-determined 'best' order.
And specifically in the case of Pantheon, and a game that will (hopefully) be a about far more than 'optimal DPS', damage meters would be a terrible idea.
At least in WoW, damage meters actually do grab those other metrics - interrupts, damage taken, dispelled debuffs (offensive and defensive), friendly fire, damage taken from auras, healing done, healing received, overhealing, cc uptime, mana recovered/burned, buff uptime, debuff uptime, rezzes, about 10 other things that seem less important to me. I look at that stuff all the time in raids.
Understanding someone's contribution through meters hasn't ever been about just the damage. And often times, it does seem that less experienced players get a sense of pride when their meters are ridiculous while the more experienced players recognize their lack of contribution in other areas.
Specifically about Pantheon, they aren't going to be doing anything more advanced than WoW when it comes to combat mechanics (at least none that I've seen). In fact, they both seem to be based on EQ stuff, just more streamlined.
You know, this brings up a very good point. How many of the high end raiding guilds in WoW use addons to play WoW? Addons are a crutch. If you say addons just help raids function properly than all I hear is, I don't know how to play my class, so I'm using a program to do it for me, lol.
I know this is you trying to act like you're better than other people because you are so great at gaming and all that, but it really comes off like you are insecure.
Edit: This is a pretty late edit, but I thought you were talking about damage meters, not more broadly addons. Addons are definitely a crutch for some and some of the more powerful ones in WoW (deadly boss mods, weakauras, etc.) allow people to play a much different game than the rest of us if configured properly. I remember when WeakAuras first came out and people were literally distilling their character down to a few buttons.
Still, laughing at all the dumb raiders that use addons as a crutch because they "can't play their class" is just a weird defensive thing to say.
That's nonsense. Games with good battle systems have complex rotations with a lot of situational if/then alternatives. I think the problem is your misunderstanding that rotations imply brain dead simplicity. They don't. There are simple ones in simple games and more complex ones in complex games as well.
And there are always better and worse ways of reacting to situations and sequencing your response. Good rotations are an intelligent optimal response to game stimulus as opposed to just throwing shit out there and hoping something works.
The irony is that damage meters do a terrible job of measuring 'optimal response'... cast a CC spell or interrupt: DPS loss... cleanse a debuff: DPS loss... cast an emergency heal: DPS loss... use a support ability that isn't directly DPS related: DPS loss... the only thing damage meters do is make those who don't respond to a situation look good as they sit there and press buttons in a pre-determined 'best' order.
And specifically in the case of Pantheon, and a game that will (hopefully) be a about far more than 'optimal DPS', damage meters would be a terrible idea.
What does my post have to do with damage meters when I already said above those posts that they are useful for tweaking your own rotation but I don't like the ones that also measure other player's damage? Looking good to who exactly?
I was responding to Sorvath implying that there is something wrong with having rotations in the first place and that post you quoted is about rotations, not damage meters. And of course your optimal DPS rotation will suffer on the damage front when things are not going smoothly and the group is in scramble mode... sheesh the reading comprehension around here.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that damage meters are, at best, a crude tool when it comes to measuring contribution to a group. And yes, they can be used for personal improvement; however, in my experience they are far more often misused to push DPS above all else and end up being destructive to the game (both from a community and a mechanics perspective).
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Personally I don't like having stats and numbers all over my game but I guess some people love it.
I was going to say that I never used specific rotations (or damage meters/are they even a thing in Lord of the Rings Online?) in Lord of the Rings Online, even in the few raids I took part in (and we didn't die) but some of the abilities immediately open up other abilities so there is a sort of built in rotation there.
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Now if you have 2-3 dps and your not meeting the timers, what do you do? Give up? Or do you find a suitable replacement? Sure sometimes someone knows there not performing and admits and leaves, but more of the time they know there not meeting it and want to be carried so stay silent so they can be, or they dont think they are the problem. Regardless of the reasoning, should 3-4 other players be forced to just stop there progression, cause they cant remedy the group? IF THEY CHOOSE TOO. Should this be the norm, no, it shouldnt. But should be an option. Me myself, im not a add-on guy. I like playing a game for how its presented to me, most companies do fine to my standards.
Yes there abused, but what isnt? Miss used, anything can be miss used. E-Peen flexing, sure, but people thrive on competition, some peoples best moments are when there being challenged and over come it. The big thing about classic is people grouping randomly in the world for dungeons/groups. So saying you should run with people you know/guild with if you wanna push content/get things done, goes against what people enjoy about community (according to classic players)
Would be nice if a MMO with a matching system would let players rate their interest and intensity so as to reduce frustration on all sides.
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Im all for parses, as long as they are not built INTO the game. if they were id like an option to turn on and off.
It also seems that you guys like to play on your "own peace" and only group up here and there, which in the end, it seems that all you actually want is a single player game with a multiplayer option and not a MMO. In every game, be it single player, multi player or MMO, you want to progress. You want to be stronger, right? So I actually fail to realize , how a damage meter is doing more wrong then good for you.
Now, don't get me wrong, to each his own. Play the game(s) as you want, but .. for those who played say..Witcher 3 and you struggled to kill a boss. Did you google how to actually defeat that boss? Did you got better in that fight after you've read the strategy, what skills/items you need to use in-fight to actually survive and be able to do the damage it needs to kill that boss? That's a question I would like to get an answer from the people who are against damage meters. If the answer is Yes, then why is it any different to learn your class in a MMO?
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This is exactly the issue with damage meters. Are you making progress and killing bosses? Then you are doing fine. When damage meters become an epeen measuring contest for asshat Dps, that is an issue.
Do away with meters and go back to the old way, are we winning? Yes, cool let's keep moving. No, let's try something else. Also, addons that tell you where to stand, which skill to throw next, etc, all trash.
Learn to play by playing, not by having your handheld or being to what to do when.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
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Yes, I agree. Learn to play by playing. But.. learn. Learn to rotate your skills, learn to use them wisely, learn to cc, etc. But learn. If you do that, then this post is not for you. I can now play WoW ( because this is the game I'm talking about ) without a damage meter because i know how to play properly now and just keep it to see stats ( for me and others ).
I never said that damage meter is a must for everyone. If you are learning by playing the game and you do fine in dungeons, raids, etc, then .. you have nothing to worry about. Me however, damage meter helped me to realize, how bad was I doing in comparation with others, which leaded me to actually learn my class by reading forums, watching videos, etc.
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Believe it or not, we did a whole bunch of dungeons without any type of meters, hand-holding, etc. We learned our class, we learned the dungeon, and we played the game.
DPS meters, or anything else is absolutely not necessary. It's only this surge of instant gratification seekers that think this is a must, it's not. I didn't care at all how long it took (back when I was a raid tank) to get through an encounter, its part of the game. Or was I should say.
As pointed out by these two, gotta go faster, gotta get dem loots now! Bullshit.
It's only partially their (and people like them) fault. The game studios pander to this style of play, and on a couple of levels, it makes sense. Few people have 10 hours a day to give to dungeons so they need/want to but out the grind asap so they can get to the next. I get that.
But overall, if you play an MMORPG to raid, and you consider blasting through a raid as fast as possible using every addon and crutch available, to the point you aren't even watching the fight, just watching your app to see where you need to stand next...why? Raiding is supposed to be hard, require teamwork and not be done in a 30 minute time window. Well it was supposed to be like that.
Here is an idea, just start everyone at max level, give them top tier raid kit for starter kit and let them stand around the major city telling each other how great they are. That is essentially what all this new crap comes down to.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
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I was responding to Sorvath implying that there is something wrong with having rotations in the first place and that post you quoted is about rotations, not damage meters. And of course your optimal DPS rotation will suffer on the damage front when things are not going smoothly and the group is in scramble mode... sheesh the reading comprehension around here.
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Understanding someone's contribution through meters hasn't ever been about just the damage. And often times, it does seem that less experienced players get a sense of pride when their meters are ridiculous while the more experienced players recognize their lack of contribution in other areas.
Specifically about Pantheon, they aren't going to be doing anything more advanced than WoW when it comes to combat mechanics (at least none that I've seen). In fact, they both seem to be based on EQ stuff, just more streamlined.
Edit: This is a pretty late edit, but I thought you were talking about damage meters, not more broadly addons. Addons are definitely a crutch for some and some of the more powerful ones in WoW (deadly boss mods, weakauras, etc.) allow people to play a much different game than the rest of us if configured properly. I remember when WeakAuras first came out and people were literally distilling their character down to a few buttons.
Still, laughing at all the dumb raiders that use addons as a crutch because they "can't play their class" is just a weird defensive thing to say.