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Classic WoW: Can Paladins tank and play Melee in endgame?

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  • BlackAdder77BlackAdder77 Member UncommonPosts: 12
    Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 
    You can tank 6 man's although you will struggle since you have no aggro abilities. You can smurf it with AoE, but it wont be smooth as just having a Warrior in the grp.
    Kyleran
  • ElidienElidien Member RarePosts: 1,378
    In Classic, classes had set roles as determined by the community. I played a Pally and Shammy since launch and while I could get a group as dps, the community believed that if you had a heal button you should heal. Sure you can dps but you will be called to heal when needed. Or in dungeons when specials things were needed, you were expected to fulfill that role. Same for Druid.

    As a pally, I was a buffer and healer regardless of spec. And trust me, back then you buffed every fight and every attempt at every fight. Mages had to have AB up at all times and Hunters better not have pack on. And originally you had to buff the whole raid in 5 mins - only addons allowed group buffing.  Curious is some of these addons will be available for QOL for classic?

    Sure pallys can be melee or tanks but I am interested to see if the community has changed and allows that to be different.  Just like specs - each role had a set spec and you really could not differentiate from that spec (other than a few points). I cannot wait to have to spec 5 points into shammy tree just for more mana. :) I assume class trees are coming back like they were then?

    There is a LOT of rose colored glasses going around right now and I can promise you, as a former beta player to launch to one of the first guilds on our server (blackhand) to some of the first attempts at Onyxia and Ragnaros, there is a LOT of rose-colored glasses - even my own.

    My one question - will the itemization be like it was then? No vendors.....only drops? So to go into MC and Onyx, you have to farm your class's fire resist gear for weeks. General Drak in original UBRS never, ever dropped my pally breastplate and I am looking forward to a second go-round with him.
    Kyleran
  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 81
    They can in end-game dungeons, but they are not viable in those roles once you enter raiding. They do not have the sustain, abilities nor gear options to take on raid content as tanks or damage dealers.
    KyleranGladDog
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,927
    Axxar said:
    They can in end-game dungeons, but they are not viable in those roles once you enter raiding. They do not have the sustain, abilities nor gear options to take on raid content as tanks or damage dealers.
    That's the thing. They can't play Melee in endgame, but at the same time they not the best healers. They just happen to be a class that can Only heal since Melee is not a option in endgame. Priest in vanilla were prime healers along side Druids. Vanilla Holy Paladins had few tools to heal compared to other healer classes. That's not good balance. 2/3rd of the class is not visible yet the 1/3rd that isn't isn't the best healer. Totally badly balanced. That's not appealing to me. That's taking large steps backwards. But it's Classic after all. Just Paladins will have it the worst in this unless you a high rank guild member that can force your way into endgame groups. LolRet days will be back. 

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,927
    edited July 27
    Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 
    You can tank 6 man's although you will struggle since you have no aggro abilities. You can smurf it with AoE, but it wont be smooth as just having a Warrior in the grp.
     No you can't. You didn't have a tank and the tank tree was very LACKing back then. They didn't even have a Taunt. Was only so called Tank without a Taunt. AoE tanking was a TBC thing many years later and even that wasn't fairly balanced since it was incredible difficult to become uncrushable without raid gear unlike Warriors who could reach Uncrushable naked with a shield on. 

    image

  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 81
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 922
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,434
    It is kind of funny that team comps really dont matter anymore until you get to mythic levels of raiding now, and even then that all depends on how geared you are (which you can get geared up fast depending on luck not actual skill or really level of content you're running....). One thing I miss from the old days of gaming is people just accepting that they couldn't do certain things if they were certain type of player. That forced you to either change to the way the game wanting to you to or just not get past a certain point. Now games are constantly adjusting the all types of players, with the 'hardcore' getting a 'time advantage' over the 'casuals' until all that 'progress' is just made irrelevant in the spawn of a 2-3 months automatically (meaning a casual can do the same type of content every single day and still maintain a certain gap because the game is developed that way).
  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 922
    Albatroes said:
    It is kind of funny that team comps really dont matter anymore until you get to mythic levels of raiding now, and even then that all depends on how geared you are (which you can get geared up fast depending on luck not actual skill or really level of content you're running....)
    Mind linking your armory? Curious how many mythic bosses you've killed in era.
    ZenJelly
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,064
    i main a paladin. dont play a paladin in vanilla unless you like wearing pretty dresses.

    image

  • ForgefeuForgefeu Member UncommonPosts: 112
    edited July 28
    Short answer : No. You will most likely wear a dress and spam single target healing or be a decurse bot. In some case of tank shortage in 5 man content you will be able to tank or in raid for a short period during a specific fight but even then a dps warrior or druid in bear form and even a pet in some case will be prefered. And don't forget to spam those blessing ;)
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 987
    edited July 30
    Thane said:
    Myrdynn said:
    nope, Classic WOW is this

    Warrior = only tank
    Rogue = only melee dps
    Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
    Mage/Lock = top DPS
    Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

    löl. you played ally, ait?

    shamans were dds ;)
    and a good shaman could easily outdo a mage those days.

    A "good" shaman wasn't out-DPSing a "good" mage or a "good" warlock in those days... or a "good" rogue.

    The thing that mattered most was whether or not you were willing to play the optimum spec on those classes.

    If Destruction was optimal and Affliction wasn't, then being an Affliction-only Warlock because of your childish fantasy theme RP mentality was sure to lose you out on a raid spot to the person who was willing to go Destruction...

    Basically, it wasn't much different than it is now.
    ZenJelly
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 987
    edited July 30
    kitarad said:
    btdt said:
    Most people who played vanilla played before patch 1.12 came out.  The mindset was fairly well ingrained in most by then.  The reality is, Blizzard designed a few classes to be support, and that's where they shined.  Right up until the very end.  Every class had it's maximized usefulness build.  Sometimes it wasn't the build that they like to play... but if you wanted to raid, you had to suck it up and play it or get left on the bench for the player that did.  And there were plenty of players willing to do ANYTHING to get a spot in the raid, so your bull-headedness made you out to be a non-team player.

    Lest we forget, there wasn't 7 main tanks in a guild... just because you wanted to tank, didn't mean you got the call.  Yes, sometimes you were stuck being an off tank or worse yet, DPS instead for some buff or debuff that role provided to the other members of the raid.

    I remember being an Affliction Warlock for most of BC just for the damn IMP buff to the tank and heck if I ever got to use anything but CoE most of BC too.  And the nights they had you respect to Demonology just for the one fight in which you tanked the boss. 

    Back in those days, you did what was best for the team... the raid... not what you wanted to do all the time.  That changed later but in early WoW, the mindset was about making the ENTIRE raid the strongest it could be and that wasn't just in the elite guilds... any progression guild did that, otherwise they weren't progression guilds.

    People chose to play certain classes because it increased their likelihood of getting a raid invite.  They played how and what they wanted when it wasn't a raid night.  That's how vanilla was.


    I raided in WoW this was true .




    This changed because it's bad game design.  Blizzard probably regrets creating so few classes with 3 specs on each class.

    I preferred EQ2's system.  More classes, with a respectable AA system.

    Most in EQ2 guilds bought one of each class to raids, so you were competing largely with other players who played the same class as you for a raid spot (barring absentees opening up slots).  The utility distribution across the classes was actually quite well-balanced.  It was not the same in WoW.  TBC marked the epitome of that (Warlock/SPriest synergy vs.... everything else).
  • XarkoXarko Member RarePosts: 1,115
    I genuinely can't wait for people who never played Vanilla to get in Classic and realize that most of the classes are broken on purpose. The outrage is going to be more fun that actually playing it.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,622
    edited July 30
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    ZenJelly

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 512
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    I doubt that was really the case unless overhealing was a quality that was sought after in your raid.     When it came to big heals, Priests could deliver them more consistently than a Druid or a Paladin, thus that's why they got the job of main heals and we got the job of off heals.  Druids were there for HoTs and Innervate.  Easy to top the healing meters because most heals were overhealing the targets.  Same was true for Paladins... only they were stuck continuously refreshing buffs throughout the raid.

    Druids didn't tank, didn't DPS, or main heal... they support healed the raid and provided battle resurrections and innervated the priests.  Paladins were in a similar boat.  Outside of raids was entirely different... inside of raids, the pecking order was pretty clear.
    cheyaneZenJelly
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,622
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,346
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    Was this in vanilla though? I doubt very much druids outhealed priests. I raided and was the main healer in them for a bit. I left though within a couple of months. I hated the grind for gold to get the potions so I stopped raiding.
    ZenJelly
    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,622
    btdt said:
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    I doubt that was really the case unless overhealing was a quality that was sought after in your raid.     When it came to big heals, Priests could deliver them more consistently than a Druid or a Paladin, thus that's why they got the job of main heals and we got the job of off heals.  Druids were there for HoTs and Innervate.  Easy to top the healing meters because most heals were overhealing the targets.  Same was true for Paladins... only they were stuck continuously refreshing buffs throughout the raid.

    Druids didn't tank, didn't DPS, or main heal... they support healed the raid and provided battle resurrections and innervated the priests.  Paladins were in a similar boat.  Outside of raids was entirely different... inside of raids, the pecking order was pretty clear.
    Not the way I remember it, but then again we're talking 2006 so perhaps my memories are failing which is not surprising since I was very sleep deprived in those days.

    Never going back to that again, I'm totally cured of my raiding addiction.

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,463
    Let the metagaming begin! I'll be in Goldshire, second floor taking care of the more important Paladin duties in WoW.
    cheyaneXarko

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,346
    edited July 30
    Kyleran said:
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.
    If it is true classic they won't change that. I feel sorry for all the shadow priests trying to join the raiding guilds. They will do well in PvP. Usually raiding guilds have room for one shadow priest.

    I will level as holy and have 5 points for spirit tap. I know it will be a slog to 60 but I rather be able to 5 man easily in between. Haven't decided if I want to raid I might just reach 60 and then say sayonara.
    Kyleran
    image
  • itsoveritsover Member UncommonPosts: 346
    Myrdynn said:
    nope, Classic WOW is this

    Warrior = only tank
    Rogue = only melee dps
    Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
    Mage/Lock = top DPS
    Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer


    that pretty much sum up everything, keep it simple and go Rogue

    image
  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 212
    edited July 30
    Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 
    Seeing so many wrong answers I figured I would pitch in. As a form of credentials I'll say that I last played a private server about 6 months ago and that I don't see a reason why things will be any different than classic, except maybe the ease with which one could respec which, if they keep the cap at 50G for classic, will be a once in a life time thing, rather than the weekly respec we had on that private server to do PVP in the week end, but i'm digressing.

    Mind you these answers are based on the knowledge of the game we have these days, not the close-minded simplistic approach the player base had when classic was live. Simpler times...

    Can paladins tank: YES. The protection tree is excellent for 5 men dungeons, especially Scholomance and Stratholme-Undead since paladins have extra tools vs undeads which allow them to hold aggro effortlessly. Truth be told a holy palading with tank gear would do even better in that situation, or at least he would do better on trash; if you are running Stratholme to gear up then Rivendare is going to hurt without defensing talents.
    Fun fact: several preraid BiS (and pre AQ, meaning you would end up prefering some blues to epics even after MC is on farm, assuming you can resist the urge to wear purple over blues of course) for Protection paladin are from Dire Maul west, which is the protection paladin's bane. Monsters explode in a mana-burn aoe on death, causing the paladin tank to go OutOfMana every pull, which makes the dungeon a miserable experience. I went there on my priest to help a friend gear up but when done we all agree ('twas a guild group) we would never do it again with a paladin as tank.
    Can paladins tank raids? That's a bit more iffy, harder to answer. It's doable but it depends on your role in the group. You cannot be the main tank (the guy holding aggro off the boss) unless you are so overgeared for the content you are clearing that there is no point in you being there other than to have a laugh. Paladins are good at peeling adds off the healers, a paladin off-tank for onyxia is a good option, albeit with the deep breath mechanic it's far more efficient to bring as much damage as possible and just use the warriors aoe taunt on rotation to deal with the whelps and burn the boss as fast as possible, instead of methodically controlling the fight. The spider boss in ZG is another good example of how a paladin can work to peel off the adds off the healers, even if it means doing the encounter with 3 tanks, the only hard part on taht fight is surviving the initial adds swarm. In general it's a good option to have a versatile paladin for a ZG group, having him tank when you feel like you might need, and have him deal damage (albeit ridiculous amounts) when not needed; this role is better done as a shockadin though (holy shock build). Paladin tank is good in BWL for the suppressors room, plus in a 40 men raid it's easier to reserve a spot for them in case you need one.

    Can paladins DPS? Up until level 50 they are top damage dealers (not that it matters) but coming up to 60 their damage falls off to the point that any other class can beat them at the dps role. That being said, any raid should have one retribution paladin. With retribution I mean a proper spec for raid, not the full retribution tree one uses for pvp.
    A retribution paladin's role in a raid is to have improved crusader strike talent and buff his own attack speed as much as possible while wielding Nightfall. Nightfall is a craftable 2handed axe that applies a debuff on the target which increases all spell damage taken by 5% (I think it's 5% but it might be more, can't remember), given how proc per minute was not a thing in classic, meaning that you could have 2 procs on 2 hits, you want someone to spam any kind of attacks with that axe to increase the up-time of the debuff. There are other candidates for Nightfall wielding, like melee hunters (yep, that is a thing, spam wing-clip to apply the debuff) and warriors of course, but a properly specced palading has the highest uptime on nightfall debuff for alliance (horde wins here with windfury shamans) plus he can help with the raid buffs. The only problem is that the recipe requires exalted with the thorium bros which is a guild effort and it will take a bit to achieve, so up unti lthen it's healing time, but any guild leader worth of that name will know to give precedence to the guild's Axesmith to gain reputation in order to craft YOUR Nightfall ASAP.

    This turned out to be a bit longer than I had anticipated, but given that most of the answers to this post seem to be based on what the meta was more then a decade ago, I think it's worth pointing out how much things have changed. Players have better understanding of the mechanics these days and minmaxing is not about filling the raid with the most over-performing classes but with the right classes instead. That being said, Moonkins are still shit :(
    ZenJelly
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 925
    Can pallys tank in Classic? 


    Xarko

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 922
    cheyane said:
    Kyleran said:
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.
    If it is true classic they won't change that. I feel sorry for all the shadow priests trying to join the raiding guilds. They will do well in PvP. Usually raiding guilds have room for one shadow priest.

    I will level as holy and have 5 points for spirit tap. I know it will be a slog to 60 but I rather be able to 5 man easily in between. Haven't decided if I want to raid I might just reach 60 and then say sayonara.
    spirit tap/wand spec priest is one of the best leveling classes in the game!
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