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Classic WoW: Can Paladins tank and play Melee in endgame?

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,317
    edited July 2019
    Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 
    You can tank 6 man's although you will struggle since you have no aggro abilities. You can smurf it with AoE, but it wont be smooth as just having a Warrior in the grp.
     No you can't. You didn't have a tank and the tank tree was very LACKing back then. They didn't even have a Taunt. Was only so called Tank without a Taunt. AoE tanking was a TBC thing many years later and even that wasn't fairly balanced since it was incredible difficult to become uncrushable without raid gear unlike Warriors who could reach Uncrushable naked with a shield on. 

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 104
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,194
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    It is kind of funny that team comps really dont matter anymore until you get to mythic levels of raiding now, and even then that all depends on how geared you are (which you can get geared up fast depending on luck not actual skill or really level of content you're running....). One thing I miss from the old days of gaming is people just accepting that they couldn't do certain things if they were certain type of player. That forced you to either change to the way the game wanting to you to or just not get past a certain point. Now games are constantly adjusting the all types of players, with the 'hardcore' getting a 'time advantage' over the 'casuals' until all that 'progress' is just made irrelevant in the spawn of a 2-3 months automatically (meaning a casual can do the same type of content every single day and still maintain a certain gap because the game is developed that way).
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,194
    Albatroes said:
    It is kind of funny that team comps really dont matter anymore until you get to mythic levels of raiding now, and even then that all depends on how geared you are (which you can get geared up fast depending on luck not actual skill or really level of content you're running....)
    Mind linking your armory? Curious how many mythic bosses you've killed in era.
    ZenJelly
  • ForgefeuForgefeu Member UncommonPosts: 117
    edited July 2019
    Short answer : No. You will most likely wear a dress and spam single target healing or be a decurse bot. In some case of tank shortage in 5 man content you will be able to tank or in raid for a short period during a specific fight but even then a dps warrior or druid in bear form and even a pet in some case will be prefered. And don't forget to spam those blessing ;)
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,066
    edited July 2019
    Thane said:
    Myrdynn said:
    nope, Classic WOW is this

    Warrior = only tank
    Rogue = only melee dps
    Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
    Mage/Lock = top DPS
    Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

    löl. you played ally, ait?

    shamans were dds ;)
    and a good shaman could easily outdo a mage those days.

    A "good" shaman wasn't out-DPSing a "good" mage or a "good" warlock in those days... or a "good" rogue.

    The thing that mattered most was whether or not you were willing to play the optimum spec on those classes.

    If Destruction was optimal and Affliction wasn't, then being an Affliction-only Warlock because of your childish fantasy theme RP mentality was sure to lose you out on a raid spot to the person who was willing to go Destruction...

    Basically, it wasn't much different than it is now.
    ZenJelly
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,066
    edited July 2019
    kitarad said:
    btdt said:
    Most people who played vanilla played before patch 1.12 came out.  The mindset was fairly well ingrained in most by then.  The reality is, Blizzard designed a few classes to be support, and that's where they shined.  Right up until the very end.  Every class had it's maximized usefulness build.  Sometimes it wasn't the build that they like to play... but if you wanted to raid, you had to suck it up and play it or get left on the bench for the player that did.  And there were plenty of players willing to do ANYTHING to get a spot in the raid, so your bull-headedness made you out to be a non-team player.

    Lest we forget, there wasn't 7 main tanks in a guild... just because you wanted to tank, didn't mean you got the call.  Yes, sometimes you were stuck being an off tank or worse yet, DPS instead for some buff or debuff that role provided to the other members of the raid.

    I remember being an Affliction Warlock for most of BC just for the damn IMP buff to the tank and heck if I ever got to use anything but CoE most of BC too.  And the nights they had you respect to Demonology just for the one fight in which you tanked the boss. 

    Back in those days, you did what was best for the team... the raid... not what you wanted to do all the time.  That changed later but in early WoW, the mindset was about making the ENTIRE raid the strongest it could be and that wasn't just in the elite guilds... any progression guild did that, otherwise they weren't progression guilds.

    People chose to play certain classes because it increased their likelihood of getting a raid invite.  They played how and what they wanted when it wasn't a raid night.  That's how vanilla was.


    I raided in WoW this was true .




    This changed because it's bad game design.  Blizzard probably regrets creating so few classes with 3 specs on each class.

    I preferred EQ2's system.  More classes, with a respectable AA system.

    Most in EQ2 guilds bought one of each class to raids, so you were competing largely with other players who played the same class as you for a raid spot (barring absentees opening up slots).  The utility distribution across the classes was actually quite well-balanced.  It was not the same in WoW.  TBC marked the epitome of that (Warlock/SPriest synergy vs.... everything else).
  • XarkoXarko Member EpicPosts: 1,179
    I genuinely can't wait for people who never played Vanilla to get in Classic and realize that most of the classes are broken on purpose. The outrage is going to be more fun that actually playing it.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,928
    edited July 2019
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    ZenJelly

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    I doubt that was really the case unless overhealing was a quality that was sought after in your raid.     When it came to big heals, Priests could deliver them more consistently than a Druid or a Paladin, thus that's why they got the job of main heals and we got the job of off heals.  Druids were there for HoTs and Innervate.  Easy to top the healing meters because most heals were overhealing the targets.  Same was true for Paladins... only they were stuck continuously refreshing buffs throughout the raid.

    Druids didn't tank, didn't DPS, or main heal... they support healed the raid and provided battle resurrections and innervated the priests.  Paladins were in a similar boat.  Outside of raids was entirely different... inside of raids, the pecking order was pretty clear.
    cheyaneZenJelly
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,928
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,554
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    Was this in vanilla though? I doubt very much druids outhealed priests. I raided and was the main healer in them for a bit. I left though within a couple of months. I hated the grind for gold to get the potions so I stopped raiding.
    ZenJelly
    Chamber of Chains
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,928
    btdt said:
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    I doubt that was really the case unless overhealing was a quality that was sought after in your raid.     When it came to big heals, Priests could deliver them more consistently than a Druid or a Paladin, thus that's why they got the job of main heals and we got the job of off heals.  Druids were there for HoTs and Innervate.  Easy to top the healing meters because most heals were overhealing the targets.  Same was true for Paladins... only they were stuck continuously refreshing buffs throughout the raid.

    Druids didn't tank, didn't DPS, or main heal... they support healed the raid and provided battle resurrections and innervated the priests.  Paladins were in a similar boat.  Outside of raids was entirely different... inside of raids, the pecking order was pretty clear.
    Not the way I remember it, but then again we're talking 2006 so perhaps my memories are failing which is not surprising since I was very sleep deprived in those days.

    Never going back to that again, I'm totally cured of my raiding addiction.

    ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,554
    edited July 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.
    If it is true classic they won't change that. I feel sorry for all the shadow priests trying to join the raiding guilds. They will do well in PvP. Usually raiding guilds have room for one shadow priest.

    I will level as holy and have 5 points for spirit tap. I know it will be a slog to 60 but I rather be able to 5 man easily in between. Haven't decided if I want to raid I might just reach 60 and then say sayonara.
    Kyleran
    Chamber of Chains
  • itsoveritsover Member UncommonPosts: 353
    Myrdynn said:
    nope, Classic WOW is this

    Warrior = only tank
    Rogue = only melee dps
    Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
    Mage/Lock = top DPS
    Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer


    that pretty much sum up everything, keep it simple and go Rogue

    image
  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 227
    edited July 2019
    Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 
    Seeing so many wrong answers I figured I would pitch in. As a form of credentials I'll say that I last played a private server about 6 months ago and that I don't see a reason why things will be any different than classic, except maybe the ease with which one could respec which, if they keep the cap at 50G for classic, will be a once in a life time thing, rather than the weekly respec we had on that private server to do PVP in the week end, but i'm digressing.

    Mind you these answers are based on the knowledge of the game we have these days, not the close-minded simplistic approach the player base had when classic was live. Simpler times...

    Can paladins tank: YES. The protection tree is excellent for 5 men dungeons, especially Scholomance and Stratholme-Undead since paladins have extra tools vs undeads which allow them to hold aggro effortlessly. Truth be told a holy palading with tank gear would do even better in that situation, or at least he would do better on trash; if you are running Stratholme to gear up then Rivendare is going to hurt without defensing talents.
    Fun fact: several preraid BiS (and pre AQ, meaning you would end up prefering some blues to epics even after MC is on farm, assuming you can resist the urge to wear purple over blues of course) for Protection paladin are from Dire Maul west, which is the protection paladin's bane. Monsters explode in a mana-burn aoe on death, causing the paladin tank to go OutOfMana every pull, which makes the dungeon a miserable experience. I went there on my priest to help a friend gear up but when done we all agree ('twas a guild group) we would never do it again with a paladin as tank.
    Can paladins tank raids? That's a bit more iffy, harder to answer. It's doable but it depends on your role in the group. You cannot be the main tank (the guy holding aggro off the boss) unless you are so overgeared for the content you are clearing that there is no point in you being there other than to have a laugh. Paladins are good at peeling adds off the healers, a paladin off-tank for onyxia is a good option, albeit with the deep breath mechanic it's far more efficient to bring as much damage as possible and just use the warriors aoe taunt on rotation to deal with the whelps and burn the boss as fast as possible, instead of methodically controlling the fight. The spider boss in ZG is another good example of how a paladin can work to peel off the adds off the healers, even if it means doing the encounter with 3 tanks, the only hard part on taht fight is surviving the initial adds swarm. In general it's a good option to have a versatile paladin for a ZG group, having him tank when you feel like you might need, and have him deal damage (albeit ridiculous amounts) when not needed; this role is better done as a shockadin though (holy shock build). Paladin tank is good in BWL for the suppressors room, plus in a 40 men raid it's easier to reserve a spot for them in case you need one.

    Can paladins DPS? Up until level 50 they are top damage dealers (not that it matters) but coming up to 60 their damage falls off to the point that any other class can beat them at the dps role. That being said, any raid should have one retribution paladin. With retribution I mean a proper spec for raid, not the full retribution tree one uses for pvp.
    A retribution paladin's role in a raid is to have improved crusader strike talent and buff his own attack speed as much as possible while wielding Nightfall. Nightfall is a craftable 2handed axe that applies a debuff on the target which increases all spell damage taken by 5% (I think it's 5% but it might be more, can't remember), given how proc per minute was not a thing in classic, meaning that you could have 2 procs on 2 hits, you want someone to spam any kind of attacks with that axe to increase the up-time of the debuff. There are other candidates for Nightfall wielding, like melee hunters (yep, that is a thing, spam wing-clip to apply the debuff) and warriors of course, but a properly specced palading has the highest uptime on nightfall debuff for alliance (horde wins here with windfury shamans) plus he can help with the raid buffs. The only problem is that the recipe requires exalted with the thorium bros which is a guild effort and it will take a bit to achieve, so up unti lthen it's healing time, but any guild leader worth of that name will know to give precedence to the guild's Axesmith to gain reputation in order to craft YOUR Nightfall ASAP.

    This turned out to be a bit longer than I had anticipated, but given that most of the answers to this post seem to be based on what the meta was more then a decade ago, I think it's worth pointing out how much things have changed. Players have better understanding of the mechanics these days and minmaxing is not about filling the raid with the most over-performing classes but with the right classes instead. That being said, Moonkins are still shit :(
    ZenJelly
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936
    Can pallys tank in Classic? 


    Xarko

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,194
    cheyane said:
    Kyleran said:
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.
    If it is true classic they won't change that. I feel sorry for all the shadow priests trying to join the raiding guilds. They will do well in PvP. Usually raiding guilds have room for one shadow priest.

    I will level as holy and have 5 points for spirit tap. I know it will be a slog to 60 but I rather be able to 5 man easily in between. Haven't decided if I want to raid I might just reach 60 and then say sayonara.
    spirit tap/wand spec priest is one of the best leveling classes in the game!
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,414
    Paladins could tank everything up to raids just fine (maybe excluding Dire Maul for the reasons explained above). They don't need taunt skill because of superior aoe threat skill compared to warriors and in case of a loose mob they can stun it with a hammer of justice or apply a blessing of protection to reset threat for the character. As long as you have retribution aura active and your group begins dps'ing the mob marked with the skull you will be fine. Your only worry is your mana - once you go oom you're not tanking anything.

    You can also tank at least some raids, to an extent, but healing is where you really shine and for that reason i'm going to spec my paladin in Classic as a holy/prot hybrid maintaining tanking abilities for Strat/Scholo runs but focusing for healing mostly. There will always be a demand for both tanks and healers and this way you can fill either of the roles pretty decently.
    Kyleran
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,317
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    Axxar said:
    Paladins are very good healers. They have less options for healing than Priests, but are more mana efficient and have better buffs. They put out the highest raw healing numbers of any class along with priests.
    Yep. They are considered the best healers overall because the speed/efficiency at which they can heal. When I played Paladin I was 100% OK playing a class thats the best healer in the game.
    Hmm, I used to raid heal as a Druid and I don't recall a Paladin ever out healing me.

    In fact the top 4 healers in our guild were consistently Druids,  with Dwarf Priests occasionally breaking in the 3rd and 4th slots.
    Paladins were NEVER EVER EVER "Best" healer in Vanilla Wow, it just happen to be the only class that had one role and that was Healing. 2/3rd of the class was never accepted in endgame. Those that played Melee in endgame were exception to this in that they had high ranks in their guild to pull strings. 

    Most of us did not. People kept running with that "Paladins are best Healers" narrative from TBC years after Vanilla Wow to justify not buffing the Melee specs. Early TBC the only thing Melee about Paladins in endgame was that gimmick AoE tanking which required you to be out geared the content you playing since you couldn't reach uncrushable with gear outside Raids. Total fucking ridiculous back then. Not sure I have it in me to repeat those days. Especially with Old AV not returning to Classic WoW. This a wrap for me. 
    Kyleran

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • MMOman101MMOman101 Member UncommonPosts: 1,776
    I don't remember Paladins being able to be useful in level appropriate content for much of anything but healing.  They were kind of broken with the mana efficient healing and plate when it came to PVP. 

    Also, Priest was the best healing class till shaman got earth shield, then it was close to a tie.  The priest shield was a huge bonus, because it did not do anything till the warrior was hit and that meant no over healing.  The problem with Druids was they had HOTs so if a warrior dodged or blocked a bunch of the healing would just be over healing.

    That was the magic of earth shield.  It only went off with the warrior was hit so it would not overheal and it was based on the healing at the time of cast.  A shaman could pop trinkets cast and then have huge earth shield for 10 hits (once every 3 seconds)

    Priest was the best healer.  I honestly don't love the fact they are just trowing everything back to the beginning.  They would be better doing some balancing and allowing pally and shaman on both sides.  Pally was a better healer than Shaman pre earth shield and horde was at a disadvantage in raiding because of it. 

    Also, I tried the game again last week, current version, and the moment and looks were really off putting.  I am not sure I can play it when it comes out.  I think it will be to dated for me. 


    “It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

    --John Ruskin







  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,387
    Of course you can :) you can do anything you want, you'll just be pariahed from groups that's all lol :P
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,554
    edited July 2019
    Utinni said:
    cheyane said:
    Kyleran said:
    Anyone know if there's any plans to make respecs any easier or cheaper in Classic. 

    I feel the narrow roles Vanilla WOW classes would have been fine if a player could flip between say 2 of the 3 specs.

    I always chaffed at my pure healing role on my Druid in raids and would have loved to be able to respec feral from time to time for PVP.

    As I recall back in the day respecs were pretty costly, (100 Gold?) and may have increased in price every time one did it.
    If it is true classic they won't change that. I feel sorry for all the shadow priests trying to join the raiding guilds. They will do well in PvP. Usually raiding guilds have room for one shadow priest.

    I will level as holy and have 5 points for spirit tap. I know it will be a slog to 60 but I rather be able to 5 man easily in between. Haven't decided if I want to raid I might just reach 60 and then say sayonara.
    spirit tap/wand spec priest is one of the best leveling classes in the game!
    Yes the wand spec is a must and I am taking up enchanting and tailoring this time and craft myself the damn wands. Before I took alchemy and herbalism which was lousy because being broke all the time meant I could not afford the high level recipes which in turn meant I had to grind to buy them for raids which  just made sure I quit raiding.

    Not that I am going to enchant seriously either, I am just going to sell the breakdowns and just hope this time round I can afford the damn potions. Hmm am I really looking forward to this.

    Before I also had a lot of fun staying at level 19 in that bracket BG on a shaman and Pally and had the time of my life. May be I might just do that again and forget the sodding raids.

    Truly BGs can be a blast when everyone actually plays and not go afk.
    Phry
    Chamber of Chains
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,066
    Xarko said:
    I genuinely can't wait for people who never played Vanilla to get in Classic and realize that most of the classes are broken on purpose. The outrage is going to be more fun that actually playing it.
    Blizzard is likely rectifying this before Classic launches, which is why it isn't going to be a 100% pure classic server.  Just "mostly classic."
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