I think it's a little different than you present. Gaming as a whole started costing a hell of a lot more when people started expecting a lot more, and technology kept advancing. The bigger publishers aren't willing to invest into these products unless they know they are going to get a return because of investors. It's the problem with most entertainment products, as soon as investors and return on investment become the goal, new ideas get thrown out the window for safe ideas.
In regards to people buying just straight up bad games or every game that launches, I think a lot of people fall for old fashioned marketing. There are not as many rules in gaming marketing as there is with other products. They can show off "footage" of gameplay to hype people up at events, but the footage isn't even close to the end product, it's just mockup that looks insanely good. While there have been some lawsuits popping up over false advertisement, I don't think any of them have actually gone anywhere. On top of that, they have experimented with monetization to the point where they know exactly what triggers people to buy more and more.
There was a time when publishers would allow devs to experiment, and it still happens infrequently. But I feel like other than the NES era (as games were pretty cheap to make back then and most things were experimenting), the PS2 / GC / Xbox era had the craziest games coming out that would sell nothing but still come out. Hell look at games like Mr. Mosquito, that would never come out today unless some indie company made it, and they would never get large publisher backing.
I'm guilty of buying most new games that come out, but I also make an effort to support the smaller titles that I want to keep being made.
I don't know if there is a way to change the way AAA games are made now, unless something drastic changes big publishers focus or something reduces the cost of development.
Three things NOT in abundance within the "gamer culture", where memes and repeating what you see is applauded.
Since gaming became a business instead of a hobby, we consumers have always been data.
I know, right?
When people started changing the terminology, I knew where this would all go.
Gaming went from hobby to entertainment. Game titles became products. Gamers became customers. Then came threads about financial reports and quarterly investor calls.
Pseudo-intellectuals will argue that "technically", those words are the same. But, we all know how we look at games differently because of those ridged terms.
When devs refer to their new title as a "product", I know they don't give a shit about gaming as a hobby. They only care about P&L statements.
Does anyone think a dev that doesn't have passion about gaming as a hobby, cares about making a great game? No, they only care about hyping up the game so they can make enough pre-order sales to cover development costs.
Remember back when we actually knew the devs by name? I couldn't tell you a single dev name today from any studio. My bad, I can name two.
If they only respond to memes, then make memes making fun of the people that know a new release will be crap, but buys them anyways.
Again with the blame game and pity party. What is up with that?
It was always about the money. TSR, GDW, Iron Crown, Games Workshop, Avalon Hill, SJG, and so many more were all about the money. It was about making money with their geek hobbies, which was rad because I couldn't have invented all that myself.
In a hobby you either make it yourself or pay someone to do it and you still have to pay for materials. If you fish either you buy flies and lures or you make them. They're expensive.
If you like to play PnP role playing games you can either create your own rules, modules, and content or you can pay someone else. They're doing it for money, not because they're your hobby buddy.
I have no problem with businesses that want to be successful providing me hobby materials. This is about hype, not ethical business practices. The hype is unethical because they're selling an unrealistic fantasy. Delivering an advertised product is not unethical at all.
Well, this is a video game site
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I seem to have lost the ability to embed videos. I used to be able to just copy/paste the URL and the video embedded itself in the message body. Now all that happens is it creates a hyperlink... weird.
My ability seems to be hit and miss...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't know if there is a way to change the way AAA games are made now, unless something drastic changes big publishers focus or something reduces the cost of development.
Do you really want most people here or other social media sites influencing or changing games? Gamers rarely come up with viable solutions or even good ideas.
No, I worded it incorrectly. I don't know if there is something that will cause that change is more of what I meant. There needs to be something to incentivize publishers to go after ideas that aren't just big money big return ideas. Not sure what that could ever be though.
I believe this genre has already spoken. F2P bypasses the need for the masses. The whale/freeloader dynamic is enough to keep most MMORPG afloat.
It is the masses that enabled F2P to function. Game providers were responsible for introducing the concept. The players were responsible for receiving that concept so enthusiastically it has become the dominant marketing model for MMORPGs by far.
If players had responded to the initial testing of those waters with overwhelming rejection instead, the idea would have been squashed before it took root.
That narrow and brief window of opportunity is long gone, and now we will sleep on that lumpy mattress we helped craft for the foreseeable future.
and where would the genre be if every MMO was $15 a month? YOu have to realize when that model was used there were only a handful of MMOs....THere are hundreds now, many of which survived only because of f2p....Personally I felt ripped off having to pay a monthly.
It would be at a place of lower quantity and higher quality. It would be at place where the focus was on bettering the game rather than on working at more ways to compel compensation for their efforts, as though they were street entertainers playing for pocket change. It would be at a place where developers were more concerned with maintaining their loyal customer base than with milking whatever vagabonds drop by for as long as they remain.
Hundreds of mediocre, parasitic offerings aren't by necessity better than a handful of quality games where those that provide them are duly compensated for their efforts (like those that run virtually any other ongoing service), simply due to quantity alone.
I don't know if there is a way to change the way AAA games are made now, unless something drastic changes big publishers focus or something reduces the cost of development.
Do you really want most people here or other social media sites influencing or changing games? Gamers rarely come up with viable solutions or even good ideas.
With the perspective of game over business one typically sees, I expect within the AAA arena things would go rather poorly rather quickly.
Do you think we as gamers have become pie charts in boardroom presentations?
My response to the question is that I believe studios know that we will literally buy anything in any condition, quality, or price model. With that data, they know exactly what they need (or don't need, aka "MVP") to turn a profit.
IMO, studios will never attempt to innovate, produce quality, or be reasonable with pricing models, if we keep rewarding them with our money without reservation.
We are predictable data now, not gamers.
We hold the power though. We could force change since the studios won't do it, by showing some will, restraint, and a little self-respect.
I know the odds are against us to bring this change. We have influencers/shills making money on Youtube and Twitch. Their followers are just that, followers, and will buy anything that the "cool guy streamer/content creator" tells them to. If we are only as strong as our weakest link, the "followers" are the weakest link.
We can always use mediums like this website to organize and attempt to unify behind a policy of taking the profitability out of these shit games. The only problem is, then we'd be generating ad revenue for websites such as this one who make it a point to sponsor content and promote the very filth that we would be protesting against.
Do you think we as gamers have become pie charts in boardroom presentations?
My response to the question is that I believe studios know that we will literally buy anything in any condition, quality, or price model. With that data, they know exactly what they need (or don't need, aka "MVP") to turn a profit.
IMO, studios will never attempt to innovate, produce quality, or be reasonable with pricing models, if we keep rewarding them with our money without reservation.
We are predictable data now, not gamers.
We hold the power though. We could force change since the studios won't do it, by showing some will, restraint, and a little self-respect.
I know the odds are against us to bring this change. We have influencers/shills making money on Youtube and Twitch. Their followers are just that, followers, and will buy anything that the "cool guy streamer/content creator" tells them to. If we are only as strong as our weakest link, the "followers" are the weakest link.
We can always use mediums like this website to organize and attempt to unify behind a policy of taking the profitability out of these shit games. The only problem is, then we'd be generating ad revenue for websites such as this one who make it a point to sponsor content and promote the very filth that we would be protesting against.
Some of you guys take life way too seriously.
Also, websites need to make money. They do so through advertising. They could do so through membership revenue but I strongly suspect most people would not want to pay 5 dollars per "whatever" for every site they go to.
And fyi, newspapers had paid ads forever. There is nothing new here.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
People collect games like they do trading cards. The difference is the old stars are worth more money on paperboard I am of the opinion that if people were more choosey with their money, we would get better quality games, but that could backfire and just turn into less games overall, which is not good. I personally feel that the industry (like any other) has been banking on impulse buyers for far too long and I don’t see it getting better any time soon. Fear of missing out is stronger than ever with social media and what not.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I'm subscribe to Humble Monthly, and pause it when the main games aren't wanted, so I do spend $12/mo on games. I have tons of codes to add to my steam game. Last time I was adding so many Steam told me to chill out and come back later....ha
Other than that, I paid $15 for an ESO sub, which is halfway done.
My backlog is like an avalanche waiting to happen.
I hope Steam is around forever, and my boys can have my accounts with all the games.
Three things NOT in abundance within the "gamer culture", where memes and repeating what you see is applauded.
Since gaming became a business instead of a hobby, we consumers have always been data.
I know, right?
When people started changing the terminology, I knew where this would all go.
Gaming went from hobby to entertainment. Game titles became products. Gamers became customers. Then came threads about financial reports and quarterly investor calls.
Pseudo-intellectuals will argue that "technically", those words are the same. But, we all know how we look at games differently because of those ridged terms.
When devs refer to their new title as a "product", I know they don't give a shit about gaming as a hobby. They only care about P&L statements.
Does anyone think a dev that doesn't have passion about gaming as a hobby, cares about making a great game? No, they only care about hyping up the game so they can make enough pre-order sales to cover development costs.
Remember back when we actually knew the devs by name? I couldn't tell you a single dev name today from any studio. My bad, I can name two.
If they only respond to memes, then make memes making fun of the people that know a new release will be crap, but buys them anyways.
Again with the blame game and pity party. What is up with that?
It was always about the money. TSR, GDW, Iron Crown, Games Workshop, Avalon Hill, SJG, and so many more were all about the money. It was about making money with their geek hobbies, which was rad because I couldn't have invented all that myself.
In a hobby you either make it yourself or pay someone to do it and you still have to pay for materials. If you fish either you buy flies and lures or you make them. They're expensive.
If you like to play PnP role playing games you can either create your own rules, modules, and content or you can pay someone else. They're doing it for money, not because they're your hobby buddy.
I have no problem with businesses that want to be successful providing me hobby materials. This is about hype, not ethical business practices. The hype is unethical because they're selling an unrealistic fantasy. Delivering an advertised product is not unethical at all.
Well, this is a video game site
Right and that poster implied that somehow this is something that just happened. It's been here before video games and was part of video gaming from its inception. Their premise is that something has come along and radically changed the business focus of entertainment gaming which isn't true at all. Their rant is misdirected and pointless because the problem and answer don't lie with other people conforming to their belief system. The answer is to just get off the hype train. Encouraging others to do the same is fine. Blaming others for how they game is not.
I beg to differ on "history." Video games were originally created, because programmers wanted to see what was possible, NOT to make money. Game companies did not "invent" video games. They came along after, when the programmers (not business suits) found that other players wanted to pay to play their "little games."
Granted, this attitude has been lost a long, long time and video games as a vehicle to make loads of cash is now the prevailing attitude. I am sure (no proof) that there are plenty of developers/coders who are in the business just for a paycheck, just like every other profession.
That "love of what they do" is long gone from this hobby turned industry, with a few exceptions who understand how to balance their hobby and money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Three things NOT in abundance within the "gamer culture", where memes and repeating what you see is applauded.
Since gaming became a business instead of a hobby, we consumers have always been data.
I know, right?
When people started changing the terminology, I knew where this would all go.
Gaming went from hobby to entertainment. Game titles became products. Gamers became customers. Then came threads about financial reports and quarterly investor calls.
Pseudo-intellectuals will argue that "technically", those words are the same. But, we all know how we look at games differently because of those ridged terms.
When devs refer to their new title as a "product", I know they don't give a shit about gaming as a hobby. They only care about P&L statements.
Does anyone think a dev that doesn't have passion about gaming as a hobby, cares about making a great game? No, they only care about hyping up the game so they can make enough pre-order sales to cover development costs.
Remember back when we actually knew the devs by name? I couldn't tell you a single dev name today from any studio. My bad, I can name two.
If they only respond to memes, then make memes making fun of the people that know a new release will be crap, but buys them anyways.
Again with the blame game and pity party. What is up with that?
It was always about the money. TSR, GDW, Iron Crown, Games Workshop, Avalon Hill, SJG, and so many more were all about the money. It was about making money with their geek hobbies, which was rad because I couldn't have invented all that myself.
In a hobby you either make it yourself or pay someone to do it and you still have to pay for materials. If you fish either you buy flies and lures or you make them. They're expensive.
If you like to play PnP role playing games you can either create your own rules, modules, and content or you can pay someone else. They're doing it for money, not because they're your hobby buddy.
I have no problem with businesses that want to be successful providing me hobby materials. This is about hype, not ethical business practices. The hype is unethical because they're selling an unrealistic fantasy. Delivering an advertised product is not unethical at all.
Well, this is a video game site
Right and that poster implied that somehow this is something that just happened. It's been here before video games and was part of video gaming from its inception. Their premise is that something has come along and radically changed the business focus of entertainment gaming which isn't true at all. Their rant is misdirected and pointless because the problem and answer don't lie with other people conforming to their belief system. The answer is to just get off the hype train. Encouraging others to do the same is fine. Blaming others for how they game is not.
I beg to differ on "history." Video games were originally created, because programmers wanted to see what was possible, NOT to make money. Game companies did not "invent" video games. They came along after, when the programmers (not business suits) found that other players wanted to pay to play their "little games."
Granted, this attitude has been lost a long, long time and video games as a vehicle to make loads of cash is now the prevailing attitude. I am sure (no proof) that there are plenty of developers/coders who are in the business just for a paycheck, just like every other profession.
That "love of what they do" is long gone from this hobby turned industry, with a few exceptions who understand how to balance their hobby and money.
What videos were originally create because they just wanted to explore and not make money?
You're right. No coder ever living made a video game because they wished to see what computers were ca[able of. They ALL wanted big money.
/sarcasm off.
In my own college, the teachers of Fortran 77 had quite a few games set up on the mainframe, accessible if we did well on our homework. No money made there...
PS: During my own collegiate career, I programmed games and never made any money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Three things NOT in abundance within the "gamer culture", where memes and repeating what you see is applauded.
Since gaming became a business instead of a hobby, we consumers have always been data.
I know, right?
When people started changing the terminology, I knew where this would all go.
Gaming went from hobby to entertainment. Game titles became products. Gamers became customers. Then came threads about financial reports and quarterly investor calls.
Pseudo-intellectuals will argue that "technically", those words are the same. But, we all know how we look at games differently because of those ridged terms.
When devs refer to their new title as a "product", I know they don't give a shit about gaming as a hobby. They only care about P&L statements.
Does anyone think a dev that doesn't have passion about gaming as a hobby, cares about making a great game? No, they only care about hyping up the game so they can make enough pre-order sales to cover development costs.
Remember back when we actually knew the devs by name? I couldn't tell you a single dev name today from any studio. My bad, I can name two.
If they only respond to memes, then make memes making fun of the people that know a new release will be crap, but buys them anyways.
Again with the blame game and pity party. What is up with that?
It was always about the money. TSR, GDW, Iron Crown, Games Workshop, Avalon Hill, SJG, and so many more were all about the money. It was about making money with their geek hobbies, which was rad because I couldn't have invented all that myself.
In a hobby you either make it yourself or pay someone to do it and you still have to pay for materials. If you fish either you buy flies and lures or you make them. They're expensive.
If you like to play PnP role playing games you can either create your own rules, modules, and content or you can pay someone else. They're doing it for money, not because they're your hobby buddy.
I have no problem with businesses that want to be successful providing me hobby materials. This is about hype, not ethical business practices. The hype is unethical because they're selling an unrealistic fantasy. Delivering an advertised product is not unethical at all.
Well, this is a video game site
Right and that poster implied that somehow this is something that just happened. It's been here before video games and was part of video gaming from its inception. Their premise is that something has come along and radically changed the business focus of entertainment gaming which isn't true at all. Their rant is misdirected and pointless because the problem and answer don't lie with other people conforming to their belief system. The answer is to just get off the hype train. Encouraging others to do the same is fine. Blaming others for how they game is not.
I beg to differ on "history." Video games were originally created, because programmers wanted to see what was possible, NOT to make money. Game companies did not "invent" video games. They came along after, when the programmers (not business suits) found that other players wanted to pay to play their "little games."
Granted, this attitude has been lost a long, long time and video games as a vehicle to make loads of cash is now the prevailing attitude. I am sure (no proof) that there are plenty of developers/coders who are in the business just for a paycheck, just like every other profession.
That "love of what they do" is long gone from this hobby turned industry, with a few exceptions who understand how to balance their hobby and money.
What videos were originally create because they just wanted to explore and not make money?
You're right. No coder ever living made a video game because they wished to see what computers were ca[able of. They ALL wanted big money.
/sarcasm off.
In my own college, the teachers of Fortran 77 had quite a few games set up on the mainframe, accessible if we did well on our homework. No money made there...
PS: During my own collegiate career, I programmed games and never made any money.
I agreed with the spirit of your original post but with respect to the games we've been buying since buying computer games became a thing in the late '70s early '80s you overstated things more than I would.
I think everyone selling games always wanted to make a buck out of it but since it wasn't crazy money selling to that limited market back then and they were all indie devs - often a one man band - the love for the game they made was very evident in what they released. They were by and large commercial labours of love.
That all changed though once big studios took over and then changed even more in the past 10 years or so when the gamer audience got so huge that you COULD make crazy money. That's what attracted non gamers to invest in and take control over game production and why there are so many games without any soul and with obnoxious monetization driving them, being mass marketed to the point that the truly great new ones almost look like accidents
Thank goodness for the new wave of indie devs that still get to control what games they make and how they sell them instead of having to do what the accountant that runs the big studios tell them to do.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Three things NOT in abundance within the "gamer culture", where memes and repeating what you see is applauded.
Since gaming became a business instead of a hobby, we consumers have always been data.
I know, right?
When people started changing the terminology, I knew where this would all go.
Gaming went from hobby to entertainment. Game titles became products. Gamers became customers. Then came threads about financial reports and quarterly investor calls.
Pseudo-intellectuals will argue that "technically", those words are the same. But, we all know how we look at games differently because of those ridged terms.
When devs refer to their new title as a "product", I know they don't give a shit about gaming as a hobby. They only care about P&L statements.
Does anyone think a dev that doesn't have passion about gaming as a hobby, cares about making a great game? No, they only care about hyping up the game so they can make enough pre-order sales to cover development costs.
Remember back when we actually knew the devs by name? I couldn't tell you a single dev name today from any studio. My bad, I can name two.
If they only respond to memes, then make memes making fun of the people that know a new release will be crap, but buys them anyways.
Again with the blame game and pity party. What is up with that?
It was always about the money. TSR, GDW, Iron Crown, Games Workshop, Avalon Hill, SJG, and so many more were all about the money. It was about making money with their geek hobbies, which was rad because I couldn't have invented all that myself.
In a hobby you either make it yourself or pay someone to do it and you still have to pay for materials. If you fish either you buy flies and lures or you make them. They're expensive.
If you like to play PnP role playing games you can either create your own rules, modules, and content or you can pay someone else. They're doing it for money, not because they're your hobby buddy.
I have no problem with businesses that want to be successful providing me hobby materials. This is about hype, not ethical business practices. The hype is unethical because they're selling an unrealistic fantasy. Delivering an advertised product is not unethical at all.
Well, this is a video game site
Right and that poster implied that somehow this is something that just happened. It's been here before video games and was part of video gaming from its inception. Their premise is that something has come along and radically changed the business focus of entertainment gaming which isn't true at all. Their rant is misdirected and pointless because the problem and answer don't lie with other people conforming to their belief system. The answer is to just get off the hype train. Encouraging others to do the same is fine. Blaming others for how they game is not.
I beg to differ on "history." Video games were originally created, because programmers wanted to see what was possible, NOT to make money. Game companies did not "invent" video games. They came along after, when the programmers (not business suits) found that other players wanted to pay to play their "little games."
Granted, this attitude has been lost a long, long time and video games as a vehicle to make loads of cash is now the prevailing attitude. I am sure (no proof) that there are plenty of developers/coders who are in the business just for a paycheck, just like every other profession.
That "love of what they do" is long gone from this hobby turned industry, with a few exceptions who understand how to balance their hobby and money.
What videos were originally create because they just wanted to explore and not make money?
You're right. No coder ever living made a video game because they wished to see what computers were ca[able of. They ALL wanted big money.
/sarcasm off.
In my own college, the teachers of Fortran 77 had quite a few games set up on the mainframe, accessible if we did well on our homework. No money made there...
PS: During my own collegiate career, I programmed games and never made any money.
I agreed with the spirit of your original post but with respect to the games we've been buying since buying computer games became a thing in the late '70s early '80s you overstated things more than I would.
I think everyone selling games always wanted to make a buck out of it but since it wasn't crazy money selling to that limited market back then and they were all indie devs - often a one man band - the love for the game they made was very evident in what they released. They were by and large commercial labours of love.
That all changed though once big studios took over and then changed even more in the past 10 years or so when the gamer audience got so huge that you COULD make crazy money. That's what attracted non gamers to invest in and take control over game production and why there are so many games without any soul and with obnoxious monetization driving them, being mass marketed to the point that the truly great new ones almost look like accidents
Thank goodness for the new wave of indie devs that still get to control what games they make and how they sell them instead of having to do what the accountant that runs the big studios tell them to do.
While I agree it's good to see smaller studios still making games, not pleased at all with the progress made to date on crowd funded indie MMORPGs.
I feel most every one misrepresented the amount of time and effort it takes to build a proper MMORPG, either from ignorance or actual malice in order to get backer buy-in.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We are consumers we hold no power. If we did there would be a Faction based sandbox mmos. More levelless MMO theme park Sandbox hybrid by now.
Stop giving them money until they comply or go out of business giving a new studio a chance. Profit margins are very small, so we don't need 100% participation. Because lets face it, kiddies are going to kiddie.
I honestly think it's because you and people of this forum are the minority in the gaming world. These games sell because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe not you and I, but the sales don't lie. We are the dinosaurs that are no longer part of the marketing equation. It's like the Marvel movies. Shit ton of people love them, the ultra nerds who expect every movie to mirror the comics and complain about every new entry just don't matter. They are only a loud minority.
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
We are consumers we hold no power. If we did there would be a Faction based sandbox mmos. More levelless MMO theme park Sandbox hybrid by now.
Stop giving them money until they comply or go out of business giving a new studio a chance. Profit margins are very small, so we don't need 100% participation. Because lets face it, kiddies are going to kiddie.
I honestly think it's because you and people of this forum are the minority in the gaming world. These games sell because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe not you and I, but the sales don't lie. We are the dinosaurs that are no longer part of the marketing equation. It's like the Marvel movies. Shit ton of people love them, the ultra nerds who expect every movie to mirror the comics and complain about every new entry just don't matter. They are only a loud minority.
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
Yes to all of the above, with a little touch of "Evolve or Die" thrown in for good measures. That goes for both companies AND gamers btw.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
More complicated answer: In setting the price companies model what % they will sell at launch, what % in subsequent sales, what % in GotY editions, budget re-issues etc. How much other games are being sold for is a factor. So they do take day 1 buying into account. And they do take into account those of us who hold off. So if more of us hold off then the price may well be lower.
However Uber complicated answer:
Unless a game is e.g. an EA Origin original many sales will be to a third party and not direct to us. Whether its Steam, Epic, Humble Bundle or Wal-Mart these companies will want a say on how much a game costs. They want to make a profit. Remember just because a game costs $50 doesn't mean the devs get $50. May be taxes in there as well.
And whilst companies may want a discount if they buy more copies - or offer a discount off what they charge for selling it for higher sales - company A doesn't want to pay devs $20 (say) if the devs then go and sell to company B for $10. So it gets very messy indeed.
Key point: its not just the game companies that determine how much we pay. If you think a game costs to much don't direct all your ire at the devs.
Yes, that's right.
I wrote that poorly, but what I was meaning to say about "price model" was a reasonable payment model for the game, i.e. Subs, cash shop, loot boxes, or all the above.
I know how the games are sold and employees are paid. However, brick and mortar stores are not going to keep buy these games if they sit on the shelf or in overstock in the back warehouse. A perfect example of this is the new Star Wars toys. Despite deeeep discounts, stores have piles of these toys.
This guy here has an entire series on Star Wars toys not selling.
My point is, the same economics principles should apply with games, no?
Easy answer: it does but.
Yes it all comes down to cost recovery first followed by making a profit - for stores as well as developers. The costs of production, selling and distributing physical products is different from those of associated with electronic goods.
So whilst the same financial calculations can be done some of the numbers being fed into the model are different and so the answer may be different.
Our choices can make a difference though as @Sovrath and others say above.
We are consumers we hold no power. If we did there would be a Faction based sandbox mmos. More levelless MMO theme park Sandbox hybrid by now.
Stop giving them money until they comply or go out of business giving a new studio a chance. Profit margins are very small, so we don't need 100% participation. Because lets face it, kiddies are going to kiddie.
I honestly think it's because you and people of this forum are the minority in the gaming world. These games sell because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe not you and I, but the sales don't lie. We are the dinosaurs that are no longer part of the marketing equation. It's like the Marvel movies. Shit ton of people love them, the ultra nerds who expect every movie to mirror the comics and complain about every new entry just don't matter. They are only a loud minority.
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
Has gaming evolved? Or is it just the monetization and delivery?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We are consumers we hold no power. If we did there would be a Faction based sandbox mmos. More levelless MMO theme park Sandbox hybrid by now.
Stop giving them money until they comply or go out of business giving a new studio a chance. Profit margins are very small, so we don't need 100% participation. Because lets face it, kiddies are going to kiddie.
I honestly think it's because you and people of this forum are the minority in the gaming world. These games sell because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe not you and I, but the sales don't lie. We are the dinosaurs that are no longer part of the marketing equation. It's like the Marvel movies. Shit ton of people love them, the ultra nerds who expect every movie to mirror the comics and complain about every new entry just don't matter. They are only a loud minority.
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
Has gaming evolved? Or is it just the monetization and delivery?
Depends on how you look at it. Have graphics evolved? You bet. Have gameplay and accessibility evolved? I would say so. Whether you enjoy the changes is going be up to you, after all its subjective. Just look at mmoish games now. Gone is the slow tactical tab target and in its place is action combat, FPS/TPS mmos, mobile game mmos etc. You even have VR gaming, while still in its infancy, it is definitely evolution. Monetization and delivery have also evolved, but that doesn't mean for the better in all cases.
We are consumers we hold no power. If we did there would be a Faction based sandbox mmos. More levelless MMO theme park Sandbox hybrid by now.
Stop giving them money until they comply or go out of business giving a new studio a chance. Profit margins are very small, so we don't need 100% participation. Because lets face it, kiddies are going to kiddie.
I honestly think it's because you and people of this forum are the minority in the gaming world. These games sell because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe not you and I, but the sales don't lie. We are the dinosaurs that are no longer part of the marketing equation. It's like the Marvel movies. Shit ton of people love them, the ultra nerds who expect every movie to mirror the comics and complain about every new entry just don't matter. They are only a loud minority.
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
Has gaming evolved? Or is it just the monetization and delivery?
Depends on how you look at it. Have graphics evolved? You bet. Have gameplay and accessibility evolved? I would say so. Whether you enjoy the changes is going be up to you, after all its subjective. Just look at mmoish games now. Gone is the slow tactical tab target and in its place is action combat, FPS/TPS mmos, mobile game mmos etc. You even have VR gaming, while still in its infancy, it is definitely evolution. Monetization and delivery have also evolved, but that doesn't mean for the better in all cases.
Gameplay only depends on what the developers intends the game to be.....there can be games with worse gameplay today than they were in the past or the gameplay can be destroyed.
World of Warcraft is the best example of this, the Classic one has better gameplay than new WoW.
Comments
In regards to people buying just straight up bad games or every game that launches, I think a lot of people fall for old fashioned marketing. There are not as many rules in gaming marketing as there is with other products. They can show off "footage" of gameplay to hype people up at events, but the footage isn't even close to the end product, it's just mockup that looks insanely good. While there have been some lawsuits popping up over false advertisement, I don't think any of them have actually gone anywhere. On top of that, they have experimented with monetization to the point where they know exactly what triggers people to buy more and more.
There was a time when publishers would allow devs to experiment, and it still happens infrequently. But I feel like other than the NES era (as games were pretty cheap to make back then and most things were experimenting), the PS2 / GC / Xbox era had the craziest games coming out that would sell nothing but still come out. Hell look at games like Mr. Mosquito, that would never come out today unless some indie company made it, and they would never get large publisher backing.
I'm guilty of buying most new games that come out, but I also make an effort to support the smaller titles that I want to keep being made.
I don't know if there is a way to change the way AAA games are made now, unless something drastic changes big publishers focus or something reduces the cost of development.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Also, websites need to make money. They do so through advertising. They could do so through membership revenue but I strongly suspect most people would not want to pay 5 dollars per "whatever" for every site they go to.
And fyi, newspapers had paid ads forever. There is nothing new here.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The difference is the old stars are worth more money on paperboard
I am of the opinion that if people were more choosey with their money, we would get better quality games, but that could backfire and just turn into less games overall, which is not good. I personally feel that the industry (like any other) has been banking on impulse buyers for far too long and I don’t see it getting better any time soon. Fear of missing out is stronger than ever with social media and what not.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Me: When will they start selling games they advertise?
Torval: Man up.
Me: ??? <----we are here
Me: Um, I give your mom a "man up".
Torval: My mom is dead.
Me: No wonder that bitch didn't move.
Is that about right? Good. Can we get back to what we were talking about now?
Other than that, I paid $15 for an ESO sub, which is halfway done.
My backlog is like an avalanche waiting to happen.
I hope Steam is around forever, and my boys can have my accounts with all the games.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Granted, this attitude has been lost a long, long time and video games as a vehicle to make loads of cash is now the prevailing attitude. I am sure (no proof) that there are plenty of developers/coders who are in the business just for a paycheck, just like every other profession.
That "love of what they do" is long gone from this hobby turned industry, with a few exceptions who understand how to balance their hobby and money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Western gamers are just a statistic, but an inconsequential one in the grand scheme of where the games industry is headed.
/sarcasm off.
In my own college, the teachers of Fortran 77 had quite a few games set up on the mainframe, accessible if we did well on our homework. No money made there...
PS: During my own collegiate career, I programmed games and never made any money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think everyone selling games always wanted to make a buck out of it but since it wasn't crazy money selling to that limited market back then and they were all indie devs - often a one man band - the love for the game they made was very evident in what they released. They were by and large commercial labours of love.
That all changed though once big studios took over and then changed even more in the past 10 years or so when the gamer audience got so huge that you COULD make crazy money. That's what attracted non gamers to invest in and take control over game production and why there are so many games without any soul and with obnoxious monetization driving them, being mass marketed to the point that the truly great new ones almost look like accidents
Thank goodness for the new wave of indie devs that still get to control what games they make and how they sell them instead of having to do what the accountant that runs the big studios tell them to do.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I feel most every one misrepresented the amount of time and effort it takes to build a proper MMORPG, either from ignorance or actual malice in order to get backer buy-in.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gaming has evolved, just like music does with every generation. It's just not understood by all yet because there really only has been 2-3 generation of gaming. The initial generation who started the hobby can't let go of what made it fun for them in the beginning. While the newer generation is perfectly happy with the offering currently being released. Your plan will never work.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Easy answer: it does but.
Yes it all comes down to cost recovery first followed by making a profit - for stores as well as developers. The costs of production, selling and distributing physical products is different from those of associated with electronic goods.
So whilst the same financial calculations can be done some of the numbers being fed into the model are different and so the answer may be different.
Our choices can make a difference though as @Sovrath and others say above.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR