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MMORPG.com : General : The Downfall of MMORPGs - TheHiveLeader

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  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,428
    I do agree that various factors have contributed to the downfall but it is different for different individuals.

    For instance I am old and slow so I find any game that requires me to dodge, block and so on has me at a disadvantage and I just don't even bother to try them when I see the combat is action oriented. So those MMORPGs have indeed become unattractive to me. OTOH they definitely appeal to others and have brought people who enjoy that into the genre. So things could have balanced out.

    Many games now introduce PvP without giving me a choice on whether I want to engage in that activity. Again something I try to avoid but it will attract others.

    While some of the things you mentioned definitely destroyed some aspects of this genre and contributed to its downfall there are changes that have enhanced it for others. The main issue is the costs of making an MMORPG and the possibility that the game will fail is definitely a deciding factor and one that perhaps among all others is paramount and decisive in its decline.
    black9ice
    image
  • black9iceblack9ice Member UncommonPosts: 116
    cheyane said:
    While some of the things you mentioned definitely destroyed some aspects of this genre and contributed to its downfall there are changes that have enhanced it for others. The main issue is the costs of making an MMORPG and the possibility that the game will fail is definitely a deciding factor and one that perhaps among all others is paramount and decisive in its decline.

    Factor in with what you have said about costs, then during the same time period things like open world survival/BR/Mobile/STEAM were all taking off and showing way more earning potential at the time, and still do today.  Hmm, I would be opening the coffers to STEAM and Mobile as well.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Sovrath said:
    Shaigh said:
    It has become really popular to blame players on things that aren't their fault, its not true no matter how often people suggest it. Players aren't responsible for stagnation of a genre anymore than doctors are responsible for someone dying of old age. 

    Stagnation of a genre is caused by saturation and the failure to innovate within said genre.  The downfall of mmorpg happened because other genres copied aspects of what mmorpg's had and improved on it.

    Moba improved on instanced PvP, survival sandbox had better crafting, co-op games had more interesting group gameplay, online PvE shooters had more interactive combat.
    Well, let's see ...

    Players buy online goods and even though players "say" they are against farmers/online selling, the evidence is that a lot of players spend a lot of money buying virtual goods. 

    Developers see this and know that people are willing to pay for virtual goods so they accommodate it.

    World of Warcraft does away with game play elements that some find tedious, becomes a phenomenon because of its accessibility so developers see this and realize that a large amount of people want accessibility/ease of play and they develop accordingly

    etc etc

    As Hive said, developers follow the players. No innovation? You go back that innovative mmorpg and if it launches and I think it's something I want to play then I'll play it. Most people would.

    but if it's something they don't want to play then you've just backed something that's going to tank. It's easy for people to say that it's a lack of innovation but not many people are willing to put real money where their mouths are. 
    Still wrong.

    P2W existed long before the genre peaked so the downfall of the genre has nothing to do with cash shops. WoW didn't end up with fewer players because of their cash shop.

    Its hardly something new that executives look at a game and want their game to be more like what's popular and make a lot of money. Its why wow-clones, moba-clones, battle royale clones happened.

    The reason anthem happened was because destiny made a lot of money. The problem with anthem wasn't about destiny making a lot of money and it being players fault, it was that anthem was a mediocre game. I don't think its players fault that what we mostly get now are really boring themepark games that ends up tanking.

    When it comes to innovation, make something new and improved and people will jump all over your game like its hot candy. Problem is that devs making lofty promises doesn't mean a thing, just look at what happened EQ next. It wasn't lack of enthusiasm from players that caused EQ next to fail.
    Gdemami
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,457
    edited June 26
    Shaigh said:
    Sovrath said:
    Shaigh said:
    It has become really popular to blame players on things that aren't their fault, its not true no matter how often people suggest it. Players aren't responsible for stagnation of a genre anymore than doctors are responsible for someone dying of old age. 

    Stagnation of a genre is caused by saturation and the failure to innovate within said genre.  The downfall of mmorpg happened because other genres copied aspects of what mmorpg's had and improved on it.

    Moba improved on instanced PvP, survival sandbox had better crafting, co-op games had more interesting group gameplay, online PvE shooters had more interactive combat.
    Well, let's see ...

    Players buy online goods and even though players "say" they are against farmers/online selling, the evidence is that a lot of players spend a lot of money buying virtual goods. 

    Developers see this and know that people are willing to pay for virtual goods so they accommodate it.

    World of Warcraft does away with game play elements that some find tedious, becomes a phenomenon because of its accessibility so developers see this and realize that a large amount of people want accessibility/ease of play and they develop accordingly

    etc etc

    As Hive said, developers follow the players. No innovation? You go back that innovative mmorpg and if it launches and I think it's something I want to play then I'll play it. Most people would.

    but if it's something they don't want to play then you've just backed something that's going to tank. It's easy for people to say that it's a lack of innovation but not many people are willing to put real money where their mouths are. 
    Still wrong.

    P2W existed long before the genre peaked so the downfall of the genre has nothing to do with cash shops. WoW didn't end up with fewer players because of their cash shop.

    Its hardly something new that executives look at a game and want their game to be more like what's popular and make a lot of money. Its why wow-clones, moba-clones, battle royale clones happened.

    The reason anthem happened was because destiny made a lot of money. The problem with anthem wasn't about destiny making a lot of money and it being players fault, it was that anthem was a mediocre game. I don't think its players fault that what we mostly get now are really boring themepark games that ends up tanking.

    When it comes to innovation, make something new and improved and people will jump all over your game like its hot candy. Problem is that devs making lofty promises doesn't mean a thing, just look at what happened EQ next. It wasn't lack of enthusiasm from players that caused EQ next to fail.
    No it's you who are wrong.

    Because you aren't really "listening" I never said cash shops did I? I am saying exactly that players were willing to buy online goods.

    And no, just because you make something new people will not jump on it. Improved? that's subjective. 

    World of Warcraft is improved. What? It's not? There you go.





  • CynehildCynehild Member UncommonPosts: 81
    I agree with the premise but only for Western MMOs. Asian MMOs and its playerbase are growing very rapidly.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,457
    edited June 26
    really hate this editor
    ScotTacticalZombeh



  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,733
    edited June 26
    Best video you done in a while. I knew the answer before you said it
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • HarikenHariken Member RarePosts: 2,398
    Glad Hive gets it. I have been thinking the same thing. It's not just the devs fault but the so called arm chairs game devs. that think they know whats best for all of us and most of them have You Tube channels with followers so they think they are right about everything.
  • BluntedJBluntedJ Member UncommonPosts: 20
    edited June 26
    @Nilden thank you for that list!

    @TheHiveLeader I'm curious what you think is one of the better official (!) MMO's that is currently running right now based on what you discussed in the video? Not necessarily the reasons, just name that game if you care to. If you have more than one, could you do a Top 2/3/4...?
  • TheHiveLeaderTheHiveLeader Video MaestroMember RarePosts: 234
    edited June 26
    BluntedJ said:
    @Nilden thank you for that list!

    @TheHiveLeader I'm curious what you think is one of the better official (!) MMO's that is currently running right now based on what you discussed in the video? Not necessarily the reasons, just name that game if you care to. If you have more than one, could you do a Top 2/3/4...?
    The big four are still decent MMOs in most respects, though I enjoy different MMOs for different reasons.

    ESO is my favorite for its sense of adventure.
    GW2 I like for just messing about.
    FFXIV is probably the best all-round, though it's never been my favorite.
    WoW... eh, it's WoW. It's always an option.
    Then there's scattered others. I prefer to go old-school for my true MMO fix. OSRS or vanilla EQ
  • SpiiderSpiider Member RarePosts: 780

    DMKano said:


    Spiider said:

    Downfall of gaming in general is for the same reasons all industries go down: Money hungry excel sheet executives enter the field and fk it all up. This is why medicine only treats what is rentable, why banking became industry of crooks, why wars are started... Gaming used to be for gamers, now everyone games... And 'everyone' is, on average, of low IQ and short attention span.



    So humans are basically a disease that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

    Right agent Smith?



    Nope. Just money hungry business people that would kill a million for a bit higher bonus. Im not judging anyone with low iq, I'm only judging those who exploit human stupidity and put profits above life. I'm no agent smith, and you are no neo.
    Gdemami

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,147
    Thing is I did vote with my wallet. I supported CoX from opening weekend to closing day with a subscription and bought all the expansions and most of the microtransactions. It still failed. I tried WoW for a few weeks but couldn't get into it. I purchased STO with the lifetime membership and got in on WildStar with their $200 founder's pack. I did those things you suggested and avoided those pitfalls you said "we" did.

    And here I am, back to playing CoH on Homecoming. I'd subscribe again if I could.
    gunklackerwingood
  • retiredmjretiredmj Member UncommonPosts: 133
    edited June 26
    While many of the new mmos quality is in the pooper I also disagree with population being lower in mmos overall. They are just spread around more evenly, if you took the cumalitive population of WoW, GW2, FFXIV, ESO, and a handful of the medium pop mmos I'm sure the numbers would likely be at least the same if not higher than in the past.

    There's just not one giant like Mid 2000s WoW, due to its digression and others doing a better job
  • SamhaelSamhael Member RarePosts: 1,250

    Nilden said:




    Nilden said:

    The devs are to blame as well... *shows Anthem gameplay*

    Yeah that's when I stopped the video.

    NOT A MMO.

    Seriously you can't even make a video about the downfall of MMOs without including non-MMOs.

    /slowclap

    "I'd rather argue about what is or isn't an MMO than the actual point of the video."

    /slowclap


    Well maybe part of the downfall of MMORPGS is the homogenization of the MMO term in general. Where everything is a MMO now.

    If I go on steam under MMORPG the first thing I see is Destiny 2. That's not a MMORPG.

    If I look at the MMORPG topic on youtube the first game I see is Oxygen Not Included. That's not a MMORPG.

    If I go to any site like MMO-byte etc half the games on the list are not actual MMOs.

    If I watch a video about the downfall of MMORPGs 2 minutes in I see Anthem.

    I think that definitely contributes to the downfall of MMORPGs. You're certainly playing your part in the "us" category.





    It sounds like everywhere/everyone else but you thinks a MMORPG is something else. Maybe the problem isn't all theirs? To be honest, I'd prefer a clearer definition of MMORPG myself but there isn't a sole authority that can define the term so people and websites choose their own (loose) definitions.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    DMKano said:
    Spiider said:
    Downfall of gaming in general is for the same reasons all industries go down: Money hungry excel sheet executives enter the field and fk it all up. This is why medicine only treats what is rentable, why banking became industry of crooks, why wars are started... Gaming used to be for gamers, now everyone games... And 'everyone' is, on average, of low IQ and short attention span.

    So humans are basically a disease that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

    Right agent Smith?
    Hail Hydra! 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,633
    ALways pay with a credit card!
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    edited June 26
    Nilden said:
    The devs are to blame as well... *shows Anthem gameplay*

    Yeah that's when I stopped the video.

    NOT A MMO.

    Seriously you can't even make a video about the downfall of MMOs without including non-MMOs.

    /slowclap
    "I'd rather argue about what is or isn't an MMO than the actual point of the video."

    /slowclap
    The inability of the gaming press and consumers to properly distinguish what is or is not a MMO is a significant factor in the genre's overall decline.

    To take liberty with a quote by Syndrome, "if every game is a MMO, then none will be."

    Besides, who watches videos, summarize your points in a proper forum post which can be addressed or I'll just have to go with my own script.

    Everybody wants to be a streamer,  get a real job folks.

    ;)


    ScotPhaserlight

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,693
    edited June 26
    Loved the video because it was an accurate account of history told by someone who was actually there as events unfolded.

    Some points to include in part 2 although not exactly PC or popular subjects would be...

    - Dev talent moving from PC to mobile cause that's where the money went.
    - The mental addiction aspect of gaming that contributes to spending habits which in turn dictates what kind of games are made.
    - Lack of willingness/ability for MMO's to adapt to current addictive aspects of currently popular games.
    - Crowdfunded projects and their scammyness making people lose whatever faith they had left in the MMORPG genre.

    Another point not to be included with the stuff mentioned above cause it's just a theory of mine which is...
    FTP dealt a critical blow to MMORPG because it showed the willingness of developer's to offer a drug/substance/product that costs money to make to the masses for free. Anything addictive when given away for free can have devastating effects and many unforeseen circumstances which is what I believe happened with MMO'S. Try giving away free alcohol or other things and it becomes pure chaos.
    The addicts asked the drug dealer to give them drugs for free, they agreed, then the addicts went to look for more free high's.
    When you look at all the MMO'S that first offered ftp they are now mostly dead games. The devs by offering their product for free to everyone in the process lost the paying players cause who wants to pay for something when someone standing right next to you gets it for free. The most recent example of this happening for me is Albion. I was in guild filled with premium players and after FTP they all quit and I'm the only one left. The MMO genre still doesn't understand the value of those willing to constantly give money to games they love vs 100% ftp player who never plans to give a dime to any game cause that's just who they are by nature. Well thought out monetization is the key to longevity but many of them seem to not put much effort into it or are completely clueless.
    Post edited by BruceYee on
  • chrisapete123chrisapete123 Member UncommonPosts: 23
    The only good Mmorpg our tbere is Everquest and probably still be running for another 10 years. Also the mmorpg aren’t in a downfall.
  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,165
    I don't think the video applies to the fans that never wanted the genre to deviate from what they were to begin with. You know, the fans that built the genre.

    I feel the video applies to the players that joined later on and wanted the genre to cater to their play style. Unfortunately those players greatly outnumber the first group.

    That's the problem. Devs chased the larger demographic, which i don't blame them for. So technically it is the players fault but also the wrong players fault.

    The genre should have never gotten as big as it did. As history has taught us : the more popular something becomes, the worse it gets.
    Hariken
  • DairiosDairios Member UncommonPosts: 13
    MMORPG's/Games have been "dying/declining" since they started. They flux and trend rise and fall, as does anything. Every year "Games A, B, C, are dying/declining!" "Genre X, Y, Z is dying/declining!" I've seen these headlines regularly since 2005 and now, 14/15 years later, it's kind of lost meaning, at least to me.
    Phaserlight
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 253
    The playerbase has slowly dwindled, and the quality of games has decreased.
    Read more at https://www.mmorpg.com/news/the-downfall-of-mmorpgs-thehiveleader-1000052947#GJ5KRUXyXeBq72wC.99 This needs to be turned around...the "Quality" of games has DECREASED (significantly) and the player base has dwindled! There ya go...that's the CORRECT way of wording it!!!
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 2,928
    u think as genre mmorpgs can still be profitable and there is a huge playerbase , huge world with adventures with other players ? whats not like?
  • WallisHallWallisHall Member UncommonPosts: 10
    True, it's my fault, and your fault.
    gunklacker
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    Sorry but i got to call call shenanigans on this post, i played a lot of mmorpgs, maybe not as much as some, But i never seen the Dev's change the core play of any MMORPG

    PS: Stop the We We i am not french, and i always payed for subs. if i didnt like the game i moved on.
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