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If old school MMOs were better....why aren't they still the most popular?

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  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,623
    Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players.  While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers. 
    HatefullGdemamiAlBQuirkyScorchienPhryPhaserlightjimmywolf
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,869
    psiic said:
    Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players.  While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers. 
    That may be so, but would you say that they are "popular?"
    Viper482Phaserlight

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807
    It's a simple concept, it's not about story, it's not about graphics. Although, polish does count pretty big...The real reason people played MMOs 20 years ago was because they were designed around a reward system that you had to work for.

    If the rewards are just handed out for showing up, then that's all people will do......show up, get their reward and leave.

    But in the older games, you had to log in and actually do shit.......imagine that.
    PhaserlightGdemamiultimateduckAlBQuirkyBaalzharon
  • agamennagamenn Member UncommonPosts: 67
    edited July 2019
    It's a simple concept, it's not about story, it's not about graphics. Although, polish does count pretty big...The real reason people played MMOs 20 years ago was because they were designed around a reward system that you had to work for.

    If the rewards are just handed out for showing up, then that's all people will do......show up, get their reward and leave.

    But in the older games, you had to log in and actually do shit.......imagine that.



    tl:dr games were games and not casual mobile stuff
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,084
    Same reasons as the OP.

    Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
    Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.

    We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.

    Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
    I don’t think we need any more than those.
    MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,415
    edited July 2019
    TEKK3N said:
    Same reasons as the OP.

    Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
    Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.

    We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.

    Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
    I don’t think we need any more than those.
    MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
    I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.

    Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.

    As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)

    AC - Project Gorgon
    AO - 
    COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online.
    DAOC - ESO, CU
    EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL
    EVE - 
    FFXI - 
    L1 - 
    SB - Crowfall
    SWG - 
    UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others?
    WOW ‐ Classic 

    Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.

    Post edited by Kyleran on
    AlBQuirky

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  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,166
    People like the latest shiny. Next question.
    AlBQuirkyPhaserlight
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 703
    I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
    KyleranChildoftheShadowsGdemamiAlBQuirkyBaalzharon
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,092
    Kyleran said:
    TEKK3N said:
    Same reasons as the OP.

    Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
    Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.

    We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.

    Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
    I don’t think we need any more than those.
    MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
    I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.

    Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.

    As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)

    AC - Project Gorgon
    AO - 
    COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online.
    DAOC - ESO, CU
    EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL
    EVE - 
    FFXI - 
    L1 - 
    SB - Crowfall
    SWG - 
    UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others?
    WOW ‐ Classic 

    Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.

    Arcfall even in its Alpha state is a better representation of UO than LoA or SoTA

     Repopulation , altho slow going has a solid experience underway nearest to SWG
    Kyleran
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,491
    I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
    This is correct. WoW may be "classic" by date in MMO standards, but when you look at the shift in the genre WoW made, that is where the distinction between classic and modern should be made. Prior to WoW MMORPGS were trying to figure out what they wanted to be with each on having their own take on it. Due to WoWs success with the masses everyone since has tried to replicate the success rather than create another shift or make their own mark in MMO history.
    ultimateduckAlBQuirkycheeba
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,265
    edited July 2019
    I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
    This is correct. WoW may be "classic" by date in MMO standards, but when you look at the shift in the genre WoW made, that is where the distinction between classic and modern should be made. Prior to WoW MMORPGS were trying to figure out what they wanted to be with each on having their own take on it. Due to WoWs success with the masses everyone since has tried to replicate the success rather than create another shift or make their own mark in MMO history.
    Or alternatively way of look at it is... those other game aren't as successful as wow clone.  That is why people stop making them...  

    There are crap load of unpopular mmorpg already... Just look at the mmorpg listed on this site.

    Grant I understand it is a bit of unfair comparison because the games trying to mimic wow get larger budget.
  • agamennagamenn Member UncommonPosts: 67
    What was the most popular mmo before WoW? Ultima Online ?
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,191
    agamenn said:
    What was the most popular mmo before WoW? Ultima Online ?
    everquest 2

    image

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,045
    edited July 2019
    agamenn said:
    What was the most popular mmo before WoW? Ultima Online ?
    Ultima and EQ1. I doubt EQ2 had more population in the first 2 weeks than WoW had on day 1 (like 2 weeks later) or EQ1 already had honestly.

    I love EQ2 by the way.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Kyleran said:
    TEKK3N said:
    Same reasons as the OP.

    Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
    Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.

    We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.

    Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
    I don’t think we need any more than those.
    MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
    I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.

    Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.

    As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)

    AC - Project Gorgon
    AO - 
    COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online.
    DAOC - ESO, CU
    EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL
    EVE - 
    FFXI - 
    L1 - 
    SB - Crowfall
    SWG - 
    UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others?
    WOW ‐ Classic 

    Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.

    No Neocron or Face of Mankind types? Q_Q

    Guess technically Dual Universe and it's ilk are sort of the evolution of those. 
    Phaserlight
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,925
    edited July 2019
    psiic said:
    Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players.  While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers. 

    First of all "thousands" and "many" is pretty anecdotal. But even if true, would you consider them popular within the genre where hundreds of thousands if not millions are playing popular modern MMOs? Even if the answer is a factual yes.....are they "the most popular"? (literally quoted from the subject line). 

    The answer is no.

    As for the people you speak of playing those older MMO's that are still around....the question was never meant for them in the first place. I wanted to ask the guy playing Guild Wars 2 talking how Daoc was the best MMO ever made.....well why aren't you still playing it then? Simple as that really. Because I AM that guy.
    AlBQuirky
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,869
    Viper482 said:
    psiic said:
    Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players.  While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers. 

    First of all "thousands" and "many" is pretty anecdotal. But even if true, would you consider them popular within the genre where hundreds of thousands if not millions are playing popular modern MMOs? Even if the answer is a factual yes.....are they "the most popular"? (literally quoted from the subject line). 

    The answer is no.

    As for the people you speak of playing those older MMO's that are still around....the question was never meant for them in the first place. I wanted to ask the guy playing Guild Wars 2 talking how Daoc was the best MMO ever made.....well why aren't you still playing it then? Simple as that really. Because I AM that guy.
    The simple answer is that those old MMOs changed their basic designs to be "more like" modern MMOs. Some players play on private servers, but those are not nearly as "popular" as the retail servers of old. That's the boat I'm in.

    Another factor is that society and video gaming changed. Many more choices with competition for players' time.

    I'll be honest and say that the old MMORPGs I played were not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but their "concepts and designs" were immensely better for my personal tastes than today's offerings. Others have differing opinions :)
    cheebajimmywolfViper482

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,000
    Limnic said:
    Kyleran said:
    TEKK3N said:
    Same reasons as the OP.

    Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
    Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.

    We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.

    Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
    I don’t think we need any more than those.
    MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
    I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.

    Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.

    As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)

    AC - Project Gorgon
    AO - 
    COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online.
    DAOC - ESO, CU
    EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL
    EVE - 
    FFXI - 
    L1 - 
    SB - Crowfall
    SWG - 
    UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others?
    WOW ‐ Classic 

    Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.

    No Neocron or Face of Mankind types? Q_Q

    Guess technically Dual Universe and it's ilk are sort of the evolution of those. 
    Neocron... *Riddick smile*

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,088
    edited July 2019
    AAAMEOW said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    If you think The Godfather is the best movie ever, why don't you just watch that movie over and over forever.  If your favorite meal is steak with a baked potato why don't you just only eat that for dinner for the rest of your life.

    It is because everything gets old no matter how good it is.  People want variety.  This is a silly question.




    Probably the reason why generic themepark are more popular.  They have so much content if people get sick of doing one activity, people switch to another activity.  

    If I get sick of doing RvR in warhammer I quit the game.  If I get sick of world vs world in GW2, I go run a dungeon.


    If I got sick of "camping" in EQ, I worked on my crafting. If I got sick of crafting in EQ, I found a language learning group. If I got sick of language learning in EQ, I'd explore. If I got sick of exploring in EQ, I'd find a dungeon group. Dungeons were sprinkled all throughout the game, not just at higher levels.

    Notice a few "non-combat" activities there? Old MMORPGs had them :)
    Even more so in Ultima Online actually.
    You could have a working efficient and useful 100% non combat character. Not really true in Everquest.
    I dont' find that a good thing.  I heard people's comment... well in this type of game you can play how ever you want.  For example you can just mine... or just craft... or just buy and sell houses... etc

    That must be pretty boring to just do one thing.  That being said, that is what alt is for.  So you can create many alt and do various activity.
    Actually, I think it's a good thing because you are not FORCED to play that kind of character if you don't want to.
    In most modern MMORPGs, even if you want to be a damned cook, you have to also be a fighter.
    In UO, you can be a fighter... or not. If you find non combat activities boring, just optimize your character for slaughtering and be happy with your playstyle.
    That also created an interdependency between players. Master blacksmiths were known server wide. Adventurers came with their gold earned in dungeons to buy their wares.

    That's what made UO more than just a MMO, but also a RPG.
    Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy modern games, but there's little RPG left in them, sadly... it's just a rush for epic items, the carrot and the stick.
    AlBQuirky
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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,889
    edited July 2019
    RPG also comes down to classes themselves as well. When is the last time you play a MMO that a class mattered? My guess its not one thats come out in the past 10 years. Every class can be swapped for another and the label of Tank, Healer and DPS has become watered down as well. 

    Used to be, Healers, DPS, Tank, Support/CC. Gamers often picking classes they liked for the role and need of each class. Picking a class also means you needed to be highly skilled as a gamer to play that role. Walking into a team and seeing an enchanter or a bard, you knew how that changed the dynamic of your team and adjusted your play style. Someone new joins your team in a modern MMO, it does not change anyone's play style. Keep mashing the same hotkeys. 
    AlBQuirkyViper482Catibrie



  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,610
    Nanfoodle said:
    RPG also comes down to classes themselves as well. When is the last time you play a MMO that a class mattered? My guess its not one thats come out in the past 10 years. Every class can be swapped for another and the label of Tank, Healer and DPS has become watered down as well. 

    Used to be, Healers, DPS, Tank, Support/CC. Gamers often picking classes they liked for the role and need of each class. Picking a class also means you needed to be highly skilled as a gamer to play that role. Walking into a team and seeing an enchanter or a bard, you knew how that changed the dynamic of your team and adjusted your play style. Someone new joins your team in a modern MMO, it does not change anyone's play style. Keep mashing the say hotkeys. 
    I'm not so sure I miss those old days of class/role locking that came with either no respec opportunity or very limited ones.

    Considering how long it used to take to level characters in those old games you could put a lot of time and effort into developing a class/role before you even got to do the kind of content where you finally figured out how the class was supposed to be played... and then you were stuck with it.

    Having to redo the grind all over again for the class/role you now knew fit your style better was a pain in the ass.

    Rift was actually a breath of fresh air in that regard giving each class many different "souls" that supported a variety of play styles and roles.

    And modern MMOs like ESO continue that trend which is IMO a good thing.

    I'm also not crazy about the DPS AOE spam fests a lot of the newer MMOs heavily cater to but that's a different issue from class/role locking.

    Class flexibility is a very good thing. AOE spam everywhere all the time is not.
    AlBQuirkyKyleranTorval
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  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    I still play EQ TLP's

    However, the reason you originally stop playing is that new things come out and you are in perpetual search for the "new" feeling. The feeling of discovery... 

    With that said, I play EQ because it has mechanics that allows me to be social. Try having a conversation in one of the "action" MMO's ... it just leads to sub-par play. 


    AmatheBaalzharonNanfoodleAlBQuirky
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,889
    Iselin said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    RPG also comes down to classes themselves as well. When is the last time you play a MMO that a class mattered? My guess its not one thats come out in the past 10 years. Every class can be swapped for another and the label of Tank, Healer and DPS has become watered down as well. 

    Used to be, Healers, DPS, Tank, Support/CC. Gamers often picking classes they liked for the role and need of each class. Picking a class also means you needed to be highly skilled as a gamer to play that role. Walking into a team and seeing an enchanter or a bard, you knew how that changed the dynamic of your team and adjusted your play style. Someone new joins your team in a modern MMO, it does not change anyone's play style. Keep mashing the say hotkeys. 
    I'm not so sure I miss those old days of class/role locking that came with either no respec opportunity or very limited ones.

    Considering how long it used to take to level characters in those old games you could put a lot of time and effort into developing a class/role before you even got to do the kind of content where you finally figured out how the class was supposed to be played... and then you were stuck with it.

    Having to redo the grind all over again for the class/role you now knew fit your style better was a pain in the ass.

    Rift was actually a breath of fresh air in that regard giving each class many different "souls" that supported a variety of play styles and roles.

    And modern MMOs like ESO continue that trend which is IMO a good thing.

    I'm also not crazy about the DPS AOE spam fests a lot of the newer MMOs heavily cater to but that's a different issue from class/role locking.

    Class flexibility is a very good thing. AOE spam everywhere all the time is not.
    The time to level was to teach you how to play your role. Who needs that any more? I could learn a max level char in a few hours. Br really good at it in a week or two. I am looking for more an old school class system with a modern twist. I would like to be able to respec to play my role the way I want as I feel like play my class. ESO is awesome, its my current MMO of choice. Only been there a few weeks. Reading up on how to play my class, I do see the constant change that leads do that flavor of the month and the nerf bat that keep swinging.

    Both system of total freedom and role locking have advantages and disadvantages. What I like about the role lock is you can come back a year later and pick up where you left off and not miss a beat. I have spent 3 weeks trying to learn ESO and I know I have not touched the tip of the iceberg. I still have a list of things I need to read up on as I am getting close to level 50. CP specs, gear sets and how that plays into PvP, PvE and what skills I need for each, to name a few. Thats allot of work over just jumping into a game and playing it. 

    Dont get me wrong, I am enjoying it but I do think some fat can be trimmed to make the game more streamlined. But I guess we all need hoops to want to keep playing an MMO? Man I miss DAoC, no hoops, just game.
    AlBQuirkyCatibrie



  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,889
    fs23otm said:
    I still play EQ TLP's

    However, the reason you originally stop playing is that new things come out and you are in perpetual search for the "new" feeling. The feeling of discovery... 

    With that said, I play EQ because it has mechanics that allows me to be social. Try having a conversation in one of the "action" MMO's ... it just leads to sub-par play. 


    Ya, over have all classes being able to heal themselves and CC and have a tanky build. Needing someone sure made great communities. I did hate waiting for teams. Pantheon is doing a good thing with healers to, I hope, fix that.
    Catibrie



  • NarugNarug Member UncommonPosts: 749
    edited July 2019
    I hate to sound like a recycler but the players playing those were younger back then.

    Those players are older now, have kids, have jobs.

    Does time change?  Do people change?  Is there will to make true choices?

    Games have changed for sure and more are caught up in Fortnite & Candy Crush crazes to give a hoot about anything.

    This used to be the WoW players that did this to the old school.

    To answer the subjective, no they weren't better but it's what was available.

    Edited for spelling


    Edit:  For those who can't understand the question is subjective as is the answer


    That's as far as I'm elaborating

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