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If old school MMOs were better....why aren't they still the most popular?

13

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  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,009
    The only classic MMORPG that I still miss is SWG. And that is because it has been shutdown and there is no modern alternative for SWG.

    I would love to see a modern version of SWG (with a mix of preNGE and later NGE). I am aware of the emulated servers, but I am not interested in preCU at all. The concept was great, but execution was horrible and then there is the lack of content. Also, friends that I play games with are not interested in the NGE emulated servers (haven't even checked if they still run actually).

    Anarchy Online was cool too, but it feels too dated by now. Vanguard was a cool idea, but also was horrible with bugs and performance. Classic example of an idea of a game that I like, but executed terribly.

    Another problem with the classics is that the devs didn't know what they wanted. They kept implementing big overhauls that just wasted time and money.
    Torval
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,823
    I still play EQ1 and Anarchy Online at times...Both are free now so I don't feel like I HAVE to play.....
    Scorchien
  • Temp0Temp0 Member UncommonPosts: 84
    I still play my old school mmorpg of choice (and it has been the only mmorpg i have played for a long time because modern offerings have completely failed me) but in a classic private server setting.

    This leads to what I voted, which is that the game/games went in a direction that I don't approve of. Pretty much all of the classics today have incorporated modern features that have either diminished the experience I want or removed it entirely.

    Theres a pretty wide range of reasons why these classics are not currently market leaders (although it could be argued that WoW is practically a classic itself at this point, even though it has defined what a modern mmo is for a long time... we now have "wow classic" offering an experience that many think of as being part of the older era). I think things like WoW classic and pantheon will tell us more about the viability and staying power of classic design ideas than this poll will.

    I doubt pantheon will reach mass appeal, even if it could it doesn't have the recognition, funding, and marketability to be a massive hit. I think though, that if the game maintains a solid playerbase with steady growth from word of mouth that it would be a demonstration of the viability of oldschool ideas on a smaller scale. On the other hand I think wow classic has the potential to reach a larger audience, especially with it coming at no extra cost to current players. If that can build a strong playerbase despite it being time locked, using older graphics, and reduced quality of life that will be a pretty strong case that oldschool designs are viable (regardless of if they are the most successful or not).
    Scot
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 650
    Those that genuinely want old school games are in relatively small supply. What many are clamouring for is new games with old school sensibilities.  Even that interest appears larger than it is, as those content with what is aren't as prone to post about it as those not.
    KyleranAlBQuirkytweedledumb99bcbully
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 650
    Temp0 said:
    On the other hand I think wow classic has the potential to reach a larger audience, especially with it coming at no extra cost to current players.
    Perhaps, but that assumes that those that want to play WoW Classic and have no interest in current WoW will be content to pay the subscription price for a game still in development just so they can play a different version that will essentially be stagnant. For those that play both it is obviously a great deal. For those only wanting to play Classic it may not seem quite as nice.

    Also, even Classic isn't all that old school really, when contrasted with many of the games that came before, and has a massive population of previous players they may be able to tap into. It was and still is an outlier when it comes to success, so their results may not be considered all that demonstrative of the potential for others to succeed with similar efforts.
  • Jester135Jester135 Member UncommonPosts: 15
    edited June 13
    I'd go play the heck out of Anarchy Online again if it came out with modern/updated graphics, DAoC too :o
    Viper482
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member RarePosts: 5,103
    Speaking of Shampoo. 

    What shampoo did Jeffrey Dahmer use? (he was a serial killer that ate his victims)

    <snip>


    ahem... your age is showing ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,823
    Well I'm playing City of Heroes and waiting for WOW Classic.

    As far as popular, I can't wait to see some WoW classic numbers come in.

    Also City of Heroes is getting 6-7k concurrent players most evenings with 56k players signed up.


    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

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  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,694
    Nilden said:
    Well I'm playing City of Heroes and waiting for WOW Classic.

    As far as popular, I can't wait to see some WoW classic numbers come in.

    Also City of Heroes is getting 6-7k concurrent players most evenings with 56k players signed up.


    Even WoW classic and CoH rogue servers are not 100% faithful renditions.  They don't count because they've got "enhanced" features like UI/Graphics improvements, QoL things that weren't there, etc etc.

    For me, I stopped playing FFXI which was the first MMO I played for an extended period because they went totally whacko with Abyssea and just threw the baby out with the bath water.

    After that, I figured I would look at more modern games.  After all, If my favorite game is down the toilet I might as well find something shiny and new to enjoy if I have to find a replacement.  
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,823
    Jester135 said:
    I'd go play the heck out of Anarchy Online again if it came out with modern/updated graphics, DAoC too :o
    They did a graphics update but I don't think it improved it much...Not enough to where it felt like a 2019 game, but maybe more like a 2004 game instead of 2002 lol
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 217
    Viper482 said:
    Always a hot topic on MMORPG.....old school vs modern MMOs, right?

    Playing devil's advocate here...because I am one who thinks the old school model was better. If Everquest or DAOC were released tomorrow in their original state but with 2019 graphics, user interface, bug free.....holy crap. 

    Someone asked me "if Dark Age of Camelot was so great, why did you stop playing?" I was like....good question lol. Why did I stop? Well for one I tried going back and playing some of these again and they just weren't the same games they used to be. Daoc has had modern features infused with it and it just felt bad. Not to mention it just looks/feels bad for a 2019 game now. I am a little bit of a graphics whore....guilty. 

    I do recall when I left it was more because of the direction the game went. But I don't believe If I am being honest, would not go back and play Daoc in its classic release state in 2019 due to ancient UI, graphics, and animations. But if it were all modernized I think I would.

    I still believe the old school model was better because MMORPG's back in the day were all about community and the social experience. Not that you can't have that today, but back then the model really fostered those things more so than the modern MMO which to me is mostly a solo game with a chat room.

    Any thoughts? 
    Just curious, is there a reason your survey entirely limits respondents to people who have stopped playing classic MMORPG's entirely?
  • bcbullybcbully Member RarePosts: 9,613
    Graphics is probably the biggest one for me. I can get past the quirks, as long as the systems are deep and the game looks good.

    Graphics and a lot to immersion. Yeah they will never be as good as what I saw in my mind as kid reading books and playing rpgs. They should do their best to represent though.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,989
    Lets see.  UO Fucked up with Pub 16 which made resist useless, and my 85 Provoke like my Provoke was 50.   Today UO is a waste land of emptiness.  I tried to play again but honestly as someone who loves to craft no one would buy my shit like when the servers were full, housing was very expensive and the population was 250K.   

    SWG is dead, they fucked that game up with Jedi.  After the Jedi came out and everyone was grinding for a Jedi the game sucked.  Then they did the CU update which screwed shit more.   Even the private servers are dead, yea 2000 people online at one time great but there is not enough people overall to sustain a server.   


    FFXI - Not the same game it was Pre-WOW when you had to have a group all the time to level.  


    This is why I have hope for classic WOW, UO, Ashes and Pantheon.  
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,398
    edited June 17
    Viper482 said:
    Always a hot topic on MMORPG.....old school vs modern MMOs, right?

    Playing devil's advocate here...because I am one who thinks the old school model was better. If Everquest or DAOC were released tomorrow in their original state but with 2019 graphics, user interface, bug free.....holy crap. 

    Someone asked me "if Dark Age of Camelot was so great, why did you stop playing?" I was like....good question lol. Why did I stop? Well for one I tried going back and playing some of these again and they just weren't the same games they used to be. Daoc has had modern features infused with it and it just felt bad. Not to mention it just looks/feels bad for a 2019 game now. I am a little bit of a graphics whore....guilty. 

    I do recall when I left it was more because of the direction the game went. But I don't believe If I am being honest, would not go back and play Daoc in its classic release state in 2019 due to ancient UI, graphics, and animations. But if it were all modernized I think I would.

    I still believe the old school model was better because MMORPG's back in the day were all about community and the social experience. Not that you can't have that today, but back then the model really fostered those things more so than the modern MMO which to me is mostly a solo game with a chat room.

    Any thoughts? 
    Just curious, is there a reason your survey entirely limits respondents to people who have stopped playing classic MMORPG's entirely?





    The question targets people like myself who always talk up Daoc and other old school games but don't play them anymore. The obvious question is well if they were so great, why aren't you still playing them? I didn't know how to answer and wondered how others in the same position addressed the same question. Nothing more or less than that.
    AlBQuirky
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • HazenXIIIHazenXIII Member UncommonPosts: 22
    I play SWG to death still
    NyteWytch
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,450
    Much of it is the same reason I can't play Baldud's Gate after experiencing Pillars of Eternity; lessons learned in UI means it's infinitely easier to grasp the complex system in Pillars than it is Baldur's.

    Go back to Phoenix DAoC, then compare that to things like WoW's UI today: delivering feedback to the player quickly, accurately, and easily is a paramount design goal.  It can go too far of course, but in general, players being able to grasp the underlying mechanics determining the end result of their efforts is generally considered a pro.

    Graphics are another, as is bandwagoning and social proof.  Marketing dollars also differ highly, which likely contributes as much as any other individual factor.

    image
  • UtinniUtinni Member UncommonPosts: 616
    danwest58 said:

    SWG is dead, they fucked that game up with Jedi.  After the Jedi came out and everyone was grinding for a Jedi the game sucked.  Then they did the CU update which screwed shit more.   Even the private servers are dead, yea 2000 people online at one time great but there is not enough people overall to sustain a server.   

    2000 players online at one time has sustained the few popular SWG private servers just fine. You keep being cute tho.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,501
    ...typical fallacy.

    Correctly:
    If old school games were more popular, they could be considered better games.

    They were not better.
    NomadMorlockparrotpholk
  • Tindale111Tindale111 Member UncommonPosts: 266
    i was really excited when they announced eqnext until i saw they were going the cartoon root .id be happy tho if they made EQ2 with 2019 graphics so yeah its the graphics and the populations that make me stop playing ,sure the latest mmos have many quality of life improvements which is to be expected but they have no soul apart from Eso but i just cant play that for long periods so maybe its just me getting older and a feeling of been their done that 
  • phantomghostphantomghost Member UncommonPosts: 736
    Graphics are not an issue for me, I still think EQ1 graphics are good enough.

    Several reasons to stop playing... 

    1. Too many people stopped playing so the games had to cater to smaller populations.

    2. Content still pushed out making old content pointless.  (I think this is why fresh start and classic servers do well--- gives people a clean slate to start at the same level as everyone else and they can end when they did all they wanted or... when everyone else does.

    3. Time.  When I was 9-15 I could sit on EQ leveling up in basically a giant chat room video game.  Can't really do that with a job/family/other hobbies.  

    I do still play EQ emu, but I can start and stop without getting too far behind since content is not pushed out as frequently and most servers do not use all the content that is readily available.  But on the downside, doing the same content over and over does get boring, so I take frequent breaks.


    Modern MMO's I tend to lean more towards PvP since people beat the content of the game in no time and the devs abandon the games before coming out with any more meaningful content.... pvp at least keeps me interested for a bit.
    Gdemami

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member RarePosts: 5,103
    edited June 18
    Gdemami said:
    ...typical fallacy.

    Correctly:
    If old school games were more popular, they could be considered better games.

    They were not better.
    By that "logic" (quotes intended), McDonalds makes the best damn burgers in the world!

    What a crock thinking "popular" means "great" or even "good."

    By the way, did you know old school MMORPGs were popular in their day? Hundreds of thousands of players played them.
    Amathe

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,648
    Currently playing ESO so I will use it as an example. 

    Hit Dungeon Queue button
    Teleport to random dungeon with 1-3 random players
    Champion Point 1000 Players run through dungeon destroying everything in their path.
    Get loot
    Get 100k XP for finishing random dungeon with random players
    Never a word of  communication was exchanged between the players.

    Progress?

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,501
    edited June 18
    AlBQuirky said:
    By that "logic" (quotes intended), McDonalds makes the best damn burgers in the world!

    ...

    By the way, did you know old school MMORPGs were popular in their day? Hundreds of thousands of players played them.

    And indeed they do.

    Do you know where those hundreds of thousands of players go? They were popular until something better came out, thus point in case they were not better.

    If they were, MMO design would take vastly different path.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
    AmatheShaighIselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,314
    Currently playing ESO so I will use it as an example. 

    Hit Dungeon Queue button
    Teleport to random dungeon with 1-3 random players
    Champion Point 1000 Players run through dungeon destroying everything in their path.
    Get loot
    Get 100k XP for finishing random dungeon with random players
    Never a word of  communication was exchanged between the players.

    Progress?

    That describes random pick-up group dungeon runs as they have existed for more than 10 years in any game with LFG tools and extra rewards for daily randoms. Because of those daily rewards a lot of players treat it like a chore they want to get off their to-do list as quickly as humanly possible and why you see the high CP, geared to teeth DPS charge ahead and skip bosses.

    Totally different experience in ESO or any other modern MMO when you do the same but in a guild run using voice chat or when it's 4 low level players new to that dungeon.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,948
    edited June 18
    Old MMORPGs weren't better, but they had some good designs and features. We're not seeing those implemented to the same effect in modern games. I think a lot of the appeal had to do with the social (internet) and technological dynamic at the time and that can't be replicated. Those early designs promoted revenue generation via grind. Those have evolved to have an even greater focus on making money through diverse streams (sub, cash shop, RMT currencies, etc).

    Classic MMOs are in an impossible position. Any change or content update transforms the game into something new. It stops being "vanilla" or classic. So does a game stay static and dead and vanilla forever and never change or does it add content and evolve as a "living" system? You can't have both. Is a new MMO supposed to stay vanilla or add content? Every update will disenfranchise a portion of players.

    The best solution in my opinion is to design an MMO for a shorter lifespan scope and build the entire progression and narrative around that, then stop. Just stop bolting additional crap onto it to try as an artificial life support strategy.

    For example Pantheon would have a 5 year content window. They would design the progression curve around that to be 'capped' out at the 5 year mark. No additional level, skills, gear power, or anything like that. That power curve would be broken up over the 5 years and released with expansions. The story and power curve would conclude at the end of 5 years. The servers would stay open, but the game world wouldn't keep getting content and l

    Indefinite or infinite progression is a lie. An unending narrative is a lie. We need to stop trying to make MMO progression and story indefinite, then we could start experimenting with mechanics and difficulty curves and bring real challenge back into the genre.
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