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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 18
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed

     And ill add again there is plenty of content in Vertical that Cannot be soloed at level ..The point that some seem to be missing altogether as Scaling is supposed to put you at level  +/-..

       Your other point is based on hypthetical content does not exist at this time , and i have high doubts a game like ESO would ever release content that difficult ..

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,459
    edited June 18
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Your argument, I suggest, is flawed. You say: nothing can be solo'd in EQ2 etc. with the caveat AT LEVEL. You can't solo Craglorn "at level" in ESO either; at level in ESO being characters who are exactly CP160.

    Yes characters in ESO that are higher than cp160 may be able to solo cp160 stuff. In the same way that characters in EQ2 and all the others can solo dungeons etc. if they are not at level.

    Maybe you believe that in ESO characters don't become more powerful; they are all the same level. As @Jean-Luc_Picard says above though in reply to @Margrave ;

    "But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !"

    Hence my earlier comment that ESO, in the context of this discussion, is not that good an example of a "scaled" game.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed
    How many times does someone else need to post that they hate scaling because they can't go to the lowbee areas and feel like a god, one-shotting everything, for you to get that in non-scaled games it's even easier?

    The only argument against scaling that makes half-way sense to me is losing the feeling of progression argument. And IMO, that's just an example of when it's done poorly or in a game that is not well suited to scaling.

    Everything is easier just doesn't work for me as an argument that is a consequence of scaling because the only part that is easier is not having mobs that are a higher level than you but by the same token you also do not have any that are lower level. 
    gervaise1LimnicTorval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed
    How many times does someone else need to post that they hate scaling because they can't go to the lowbee areas and feel like a god, one-shotting everything, for you to get that in non-scaled games it's even easier?

    The only argument against scaling that makes half-way sense to me is losing the feeling of progression argument. And IMO, that's just an example of when it's done poorly or in a game that is not well suited to scaling.

    Everything is easier just doesn't work for me as an argument that is a consequence of scaling because the only part that is easier is not having mobs that are a higher level than you but by the same token you also do not have any that are lower level. 
    First , that has never ever been something ive done or care to do , i dont enjoy kicking kittens , I dont ever go back to lower zones for that .. at all, ever .. I know some do enjoy that.. Its weird to me , because it no challenge , I always try to push my char/build to its limits , which i found more enjoyable in ESO before T1 IMO ..Now people here can argue with IMO till they are blue in the face , but IMO they would be wrong all day ..

      And there are several that make sense to me and others that scaling is not as enjoyable, so why is that a problem for some , Many folks Dont like scaling for a variety of reasons , it does not need to be White Knighted ...

      Scaling games feel easier for me , why is that a problem for some .. Its like some here are defending there girl friend over it , guess what , she has flaws and others may point them out .. Its OK .. you can still love her
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Even then, with mobs being scaled to your level, that does not stop mobs from being made to just be harder or easier dependent on a dev's target difficulty for a given experience. That element is squarely hinged on what the "standard" attributes are that you'd want to ascribe to any given mob. Be it the stats, the combat mechanics, any unique gimmicks. 

    The difficulty of a mob has to be set relative to an expected user experience. A system being scaled or non-scaling does not change that. It only changes the type of bar you are setting the challenge against. You can consequently make content as hard or as easy as you want while using either mechanic.

    It's, at best, only coincidence that scaling has become more prevalent in games alongside simplification of other things such as a game's challenge. Seeing as we could again point to modern titles, or even modern incarnations of old titles, that are still non-scaling and are every bit as easy as anything else you'd point at, it kind of drives that fact home.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 945
    edited June 18
    Progression, character progression and
    difficulty, difficulty curve. Well met.

    mitigation of challenge and challenge.

    Eternal challenge, or sustained challenge is denial of progression, always unreal and only artificial. Unnecessary and unfun. A stone. A temporary challenge is necessary, it can take weeks or months in the context of a virtual game world. We call it, epic.

    "Get on my level!" (a sentenced commonly uttered by a human being who just awakened and connected to his inner self, knowing more of himself, through a game, as their individual talents  and differentiation from others, start to be perceived) vs "Scaling to your level" (rpgcodex main sentence is a mockery of this: "doesnt scale to your level")

    Anyone who have played true RPGs, knows that scaling (in this sense) is stupid and absurd. Scaling in context of "shadow" of the character, or clones, or dopplegangers, or an acceptable scaling of something that naturaly exists in the game world, but can be found in its "bigger" or "evolved" form is ok also. But not scaling tied to the player, in a "panoptic" or "paranoic" context, just for the sake of providing continuous challenge or to keep relevance of old content. We can see right through it, but we dont eat it. Its cheap design strategy. Dont even bother entering the industry with this mindset and creative work-ethic.

    The ideal is to have freedom and challenge, the world as a wilderness, with a wide and broad range of difficulties and threats, leading unto death. 
    No strait and narrow, scalable (artificial, immersion breaking, utter cheating), scripted, linear, jacobian (deceitfull) stair case of "item 1, enemy 1, reward 2, item 2, enemy 2, reward 3" surrounded by walls, preventing mistakes in any kind of choice, preventing distinction in any kind of human factor aspect (efficiency of the player in the game: knowledge, skill, time/effort spent, luck, etc) Ultima Online as the king, Old School foundation and design philosophy, EVE Online, Star Wars Galaxies (pre-nge), Saga of Ryzom as princess daughters of a simulated world wherein the player character starts realistically being what he is in real life (an escapee, insignificant), but with the potential to become a jedi or the archetypical hero "if everyone is a hero, noone is". 

    Fear is necessary and is the beggining. The world is tamed, tameable, albeit completely inhospitable and dangerous, at the beggining and for many months after release, until "technological" level improves and not something "dispelled" within few hours or the first week (by easily figuring of meta or low time/effort for cap progression.

    The player and his character have dominion over the beasts, flying fowls and fishes and creeping things, just like on real life. Rendering the challenge null, over expected/design period of time is acceptable, its part of the "challenge mitigation" mechanics, expected and related to progression (massive victory, reward, addiction triggers of the first letter of the acronym MMORPG).

    The player must abide by real life wisdom precepts, to succeed in the game, in those designs, whose game world must be persistent, permanent, living breathing, organic, changing, massive in complexity, depth and time and effort spent.
      
    A proper educational entertaining Escapism design for social rejects of their earthly surroundings (elite spiritual/perceptive humans, which get attracted into the complexity/freedom of this kind of interactiveness), rather than banal shit boring lowest common denominator vain deceitful and shallow casual spoonfed carebear design for the average, above average SOCIALLY "accepts" (the rich, spoiled, charismatic or beautiful, which are the bane of anything divinely inspired created on Earth for all, and which have the attention span, virtue, perception, intelect, depth of a stone and are more interested in a conversation, or flerting socialization online during the times when they are not doing that in real life, or being tools and pawns in whatever systems, than what games truly are and can be).
    (Meta cultural design of children/teenagers/young adults misused by the sinful fallen power players of the gaming/cultural industry, catering to their children and pockets)

    Where the player is responsible for his wisdom or foolishness. Which is what made gaming on Old School designs a natural filtering process to know who is who on earth, as gaming is just simulation/stimulation of human factor. Severely limited or absent in modern games. 

    Scaling is just a tool technique for the lazy (hired developers pushing with their bellies, copy pasting what they know not) and those who are willingly boycotting the childrens within us, by denying from them the proper development of their beings, which is why its so offensive to US. Thats why its mostly shit, its been some two decades now, not only in gaming, obviously. Just like dozens of other game designs considered "standard" nowadays. An entire revival of the UO School design philosophy is required and then pushed over the current casual modern crowd, through the proper Internet Service Providers programed virtual popularity farms: "marketing" tools, to ensure success/victory in the industry secret wars, which is currently being misused by THEM. 
    ScorchienAlBQuirky
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 596
    I can't stand scaling in MMO's.  It's a cheap way for developers to keep previous areas relevant and games that revolve around character progression loose any sense of progression because of it.  I do not like it one bit.  Instead of scaling zones, how about devs come up with some new, good, meaningful content. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Limnic said:
    <snip>
    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    <snip>
    Apparently, YOU know better than I what immerses me.
    Scorchien

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    <snip>
    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    <snip>
    Apparently, YOU know better than I what immerses me.
    Well one, that was a question, not an assertion.

    Two, that was a question posed to Pogg, not to you.

    Three, the part I did address you in was in questioning Pogg's commentary as being insightful, as a riff on you having tagged it as such in spite of my perception that it was largely a post of misinformation.

    I apologize for any misconceptions that was had there.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around. How does a (in ESO, at least) 600CP (whatever that means) character help a 0CP character defeat the same monster without one-shotting it? Is that monster "scaled" to 600CP for you and 0CP for the noob? How is this "challenging" at all? What Am I missing?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Progression, character progression and
    difficulty, difficulty curve. Well met.

    mitigation of challenge and challenge.
    That was about as verbose as it was intangible.

    You complain of sustained challenge, then complain for a lack of challenge. You complain of "strait and narrow", yet advocate what is functionally gating. You complain of an educational and entertaining experience, and then spit at one that offers hardship through depth of experience as opposed to simply comparing numbers.

    This would cycle to a point that's been made prior using the Zelda titles as a frame of reference. A game series that dominantly uses horizontal progression to expand on a character's access to the game world as well as depth of gameplay. A game series that is dominantly built around a "flat" scaling, with player growth and progression revolving around solving problems, access to new skills and tools, and solutions that broaden your possibilities in play.

    Blaming scaling is a misattribution in this regard. Should we point to any variety of game worlds where there is level-gated content to immediately show how non-scaled user experiences prevent a player from the freedom of choice? Should we point to any variety of game where skills to defeat monsters are less about overcoming specific mechanics and instead is just a level-based "my numbers are bigger" goal? Should we point to any variety of game where you start of ass one class and one play style, and that's all you are for the rest of the game because leveling provides you only a linear user experience?

    Is there not wisdom to obtain and know when to use a variety of contextually driven skills, items, etc that allows for a player to intuitively overcome challenges as they unlock things within a scaled or horizontal context?

    A false dichotomy will remain a false dichotomy. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 18
    <snip>
    The ideal is to have freedom and challenge, the world as a wilderness, with a wide and broad range of difficulties and threats, leading unto death.
    <snip>
    This right here says in a nutshell why I dislike scaling. When scaling arrives, variety leaves.

    In the many, many ESO examples, it seems that variety comes in the way of solo vs group. I may be wrong but that's how I'm reading it.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 18
    Limnic said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Dude, I don't think he's gonna get that no matter how many times it's been said to him. I've already spent multiple posts making that point just to be met with "nuh-uh!".
    Some people have their head stuck so deeply into the EQ/WoW clone model that they can't imagine things can work differently... and better too.
    Only problem with that logic is i have a 460 CP NB .. its not that fun altho the world is beautiful , the crafting is well done , the combat and challenge are lacking ... Ill stick with UO for that ..
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    AlBQuirky said:
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around. How does a (in ESO, at least) 600CP (whatever that means) character help a 0CP character defeat the same monster without one-shotting it? Is that monster "scaled" to 600CP for you and 0CP for the noob? How is this "challenging" at all? What Am I missing?
    He will most likely only need a few hits to kill it, yes, the power curve is there. But it's nowhere near of the one in EQ model games where a mob 10 levels higher will kill you without you ever having a chance.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    AlBQuirky said:
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around. How does a (in ESO, at least) 600CP (whatever that means) character help a 0CP character defeat the same monster without one-shotting it? Is that monster "scaled" to 600CP for you and 0CP for the noob? How is this "challenging" at all? What Am I missing?
    The mobs are scaled to 160cp. The player without any cp is also "scaled" to 160cp, but lacks the points they would obtain from being actually 160cp to invest into bonuses. the 600cp player would be 440cp over the scaled player and mob, as well as have the corresponding points to apply into bonuses that the other player lacks.

    This also comes with any access or evolution of skills that the 600cp player has obtained that the non-cp character may not yet have obtained.

    In many instances, the one-shotting won't take place because most skills simply aren't designed to one-shot. On the other hand, there are a variety of builds still fully capable of "more or less" one-shotting "trash mobs" if they are sufficiently geared up and built out.
    Jean-Luc_Picardgervaise1
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AlBQuirky said:
    <snip>
    The ideal is to have freedom and challenge, the world as a wilderness, with a wide and broad range of difficulties and threats, leading unto death.
    <snip>
    This right here says in a nutshell why I dislike scaling. When scaling arrives, variety leaves.

    In the many, many ESO examples, it seems that variety comes in the way of solo vs group. I may be wrong but that's how I'm reading it.
    I find this a bit of an odd take.

    What of their comment indicated any dynamic that wasn't either solo or group? All experiences fall into one or the other. Things like puzzles, traps, unique mob mechanics and behaviors, etc all still have relevance in scaling content. Perhaps more so again when player's can't simply over-level and break the intended risk of those challenges.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed
    How many times does someone else need to post that they hate scaling because they can't go to the lowbee areas and feel like a god, one-shotting everything, for you to get that in non-scaled games it's even easier?

    The only argument against scaling that makes half-way sense to me is losing the feeling of progression argument. And IMO, that's just an example of when it's done poorly or in a game that is not well suited to scaling.

    Everything is easier just doesn't work for me as an argument that is a consequence of scaling because the only part that is easier is not having mobs that are a higher level than you but by the same token you also do not have any that are lower level. 
    That is not even true either.

    You can have newbie areas that are easier the higher level you are.  You can have areas that are "elite" group difficulty that are always "elite" group difficultly.  Scaling is number manipulation.  There is no hard rules. 
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Limnic said:
    In many instances, the one-shotting won't take place because most skills simply aren't designed to one-shot. On the other hand, there are a variety of builds still fully capable of "more or less" one-shotting "trash mobs" if they are sufficiently geared up and built out.
    Yup. A bow Snipe from stealth being one notable exception if you have it slotted but it's very rare for any high CP player to slot it anywhere but PvP.
    Temp0
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 18
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    <snip>
    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    <snip>
    Apparently, YOU know better than I what immerses me.
    Well one, that was a question, not an assertion.

    Two, that was a question posed to Pogg, not to you.

    Three, the part I did address you in was in questioning Pogg's commentary as being insightful, as a riff on you having tagged it as such in spite of my perception that it was largely a post of misinformation.

    I apologize for any misconceptions that was had there.
    I admit being on the defensive, since you think my "opinion" is so wrong "misinformed." My arguments, though, get a "null/red herring/facetious" response from you, so there is nothing more I can say, since you can't believe someone differs in opinion from you.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    <snip>
    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    <snip>
    Apparently, YOU know better than I what immerses me.
    Well one, that was a question, not an assertion.

    Two, that was a question posed to Pogg, not to you.

    Three, the part I did address you in was in questioning Pogg's commentary as being insightful, as a riff on you having tagged it as such in spite of my perception that it was largely a post of misinformation.

    I apologize for any misconceptions that was had there.
    I admit being on the defensive, since you think my "opinion" is so wrong "misinformed." My arguments, though, get a "null/red herring/facetious" response from you, so there is nothing more I can say, since you can't believe someone differs in opinion from you.
    Again, the dialogue that was considered to be misinformed was Pogg's, not yours.
    As I stated in the prior post, you were tagged as a riff on the fact that you put an insightful tag on Pogg's post.

    I thought I had already clarified that. Are you just looking to be derisive?
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around. How does a (in ESO, at least) 600CP (whatever that means) character help a 0CP character defeat the same monster without one-shotting it? Is that monster "scaled" to 600CP for you and 0CP for the noob? How is this "challenging" at all? What Am I missing?
    The mobs are scaled to 160cp. The player without any cp is also "scaled" to 160cp, but lacks the points they would obtain from being actually 160cp to invest into bonuses. the 600cp player would be 440cp over the scaled player and mob, as well as have the corresponding points to apply into bonuses that the other player lacks.

    This also comes with any access or evolution of skills that the 600cp player has obtained that the non-cp character may not yet have obtained.

    In many instances, the one-shotting won't take place because most skills simply aren't designed to one-shot. On the other hand, there are a variety of builds still fully capable of "more or less" one-shotting "trash mobs" if they are sufficiently geared up and built out.
    How does scaling even have "trash mobs?"

    I'm sorry, but this is sounding like the "can't miss chance of a lifetime", it is getting sold so hard and appears to contradict itself at certain points.

    "All monsters are 160cp scaled up or down to the character's CP."

    Then...

    One can "more or less" one shot trash mobs.

    Which is it? Do the monsters scale or not?

    Maybe this is all much too complicated for my simple mind. My apologies if I am totally missing the boat here.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 18
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    <snip>
    The ideal is to have freedom and challenge, the world as a wilderness, with a wide and broad range of difficulties and threats, leading unto death.
    <snip>
    This right here says in a nutshell why I dislike scaling. When scaling arrives, variety leaves.

    In the many, many ESO examples, it seems that variety comes in the way of solo vs group. I may be wrong but that's how I'm reading it.
    I find this a bit of an odd take.

    What of their comment indicated any dynamic that wasn't either solo or group? All experiences fall into one or the other. Things like puzzles, traps, unique mob mechanics and behaviors, etc all still have relevance in scaling content. Perhaps more so again when player's can't simply over-level and break the intended risk of those challenges.
    All I can say is, "So what if players can over-level an encounter and 'break' the intended risk of those challenges?" Why would you care? How does that effect you?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited June 18
    AlBQuirky said:

    Which is it? Do the monsters scale or not?
    You become better than the mobs.
    But unlike WoW clones, it's not the level that matters, but your knowledge (skills, points, etc...). When a mob attacks you, you will simply have way more ways to fight back... you won't be invincible because the level difference makes you so for no good reason.
    And you will never become an undying god.

    That's what makes properly designed level scaling (it's even a bad name for it actually) more realistic.
    Limnic
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,873
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed
    How many times does someone else need to post that they hate scaling because they can't go to the lowbee areas and feel like a god, one-shotting everything, for you to get that in non-scaled games it's even easier?

    The only argument against scaling that makes half-way sense to me is losing the feeling of progression argument. And IMO, that's just an example of when it's done poorly or in a game that is not well suited to scaling.

    Everything is easier just doesn't work for me as an argument that is a consequence of scaling because the only part that is easier is not having mobs that are a higher level than you but by the same token you also do not have any that are lower level. 
    First , that has never ever been something ive done or care to do , i dont enjoy kicking kittens , I dont ever go back to lower zones for that .. at all, ever .. I know some do enjoy that.. Its weird to me , because it no challenge , I always try to push my char/build to its limits , which i found more enjoyable in ESO before T1 IMO ..Now people here can argue with IMO till they are blue in the face , but IMO they would be wrong all day ..

      And there are several that make sense to me and others that scaling is not as enjoyable, so why is that a problem for some , Many folks Dont like scaling for a variety of reasons , it does not need to be White Knighted ...

      Scaling games feel easier for me , why is that a problem for some .. Its like some here are defending there girl friend over it , guess what , she has flaws and others may point them out .. Its OK .. you can still love her
    That may not be you Scorch or a few others like you, but for most everyone it is the reason. Most people in the thread want to trivialize content via progression.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around. How does a (in ESO, at least) 600CP (whatever that means) character help a 0CP character defeat the same monster without one-shotting it? Is that monster "scaled" to 600CP for you and 0CP for the noob? How is this "challenging" at all? What Am I missing?
    The mobs are scaled to 160cp. The player without any cp is also "scaled" to 160cp, but lacks the points they would obtain from being actually 160cp to invest into bonuses. the 600cp player would be 440cp over the scaled player and mob, as well as have the corresponding points to apply into bonuses that the other player lacks.

    This also comes with any access or evolution of skills that the 600cp player has obtained that the non-cp character may not yet have obtained.

    In many instances, the one-shotting won't take place because most skills simply aren't designed to one-shot. On the other hand, there are a variety of builds still fully capable of "more or less" one-shotting "trash mobs" if they are sufficiently geared up and built out.
    How does scaling even have "trash mobs?"

    I'm sorry, but this is sounding like the "can't miss chance of a lifetime", it is getting sold so hard and appears to contradict itself at certain points.

    "All monsters are 160cp scaled up or down to the character's CP."

    Then...

    One can "more or less" one shot trash mobs.

    Which is it? Do the monsters scale or not?

    Maybe this is all much too complicated for my simple mind. My apologies if I am totally missing the boat here.
    Not all mobs have to be created equal. Just because there is a mid-point to scale does not mean every type of enemy has to have exactly matched stats, skills, AI, etc. Differing types of mobs can have differing traits and tiers of difficulty

    I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

    And as you can see right in the post you quoted, I said "The mobs are scaled to 160cp". Nothing about "to the character's cp". You are currently inserting things that were not said, and that is messing up the conclusions being drawn.

    And being able to one-shot a mob with a 600cp player is not mutually exclusive to mobs being scaled to 160cp. Rather, it makes it a pretty simple dynamic because as long as that 600cp player is properly geared and skilled out, then it makes it entirely viable versus a lower-tier difficulty mob.

    So I can reiterate;
    Monsters scale, they do not scale to you.
    You scale up to 160cp (without bonuses), at which point you can continue to progress up to 810cp(with bonuses).

    Most skills in the game are not designed to one-shot mobs, but contextually can based on a player build and gearing that's done for the express purpose of doing so, and it's not going to universally one-shot everything, because not all mobs are made to be the same level of difficulty. 

    Scaling does not mandate all mobs are of the same difficulty. A 160 cp rat is still way easier to kill than a 160cp troll. Just as well, veteran tier mobs are 160cp, but fundamentally higher stats/skills than their counterparts.

    Hope this clears up some confusion.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
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