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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 18
    I guess my D&D upbringing instilled my sense of leveling and progression. Every campaign started with us against Kobolds and Goblins, then moving up to Orcs and Gnolls, then Bubgbears and Ogres. Eventually, we'd get to the "really cool" opponents like Liches and Dragons. That's how I learned. That's come to be my own expectation of recognizable progression.

    In EQ, I saw Giants at low levels. Never fought them then, but I kept my eyes on them. Then, after level 20, I could start having a chance on the Hill Giants. Does ESO have anything like this?

    How does scaling give this kind of feeling? Or does it even want to?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,812
    AlBQuirky said:
    How does scaling give this kind of feeling? Or does it even want to?
    Doesn't want to, the whole point is to go anywhere and face the same luke-warm mediocre crap without the slightest pinch of progression... forced scaling, that is. Optional scaling is a neat tool at hand.

    There can be valid arguments on forced scaling, though with D&D (or any pen-and-paper) ubringing as you said those arguments sounds dumb, since progression is one of the key elements of roleplaying.
    But the most dumb (and also pretty invalid) argument is when they bring in immersion. Not just for the double standard of "level 50 rat is immersion breaking when there is a level 5 rat too" vs. "low level orc just trained as hard as the players, that's why the same challenge when the players go back". With that reasoning the more powerful rat could also be a more trained and more dangerous one.

    No, what makes the immersion argument a joke is when the forced scaling people, after some struggle, beat the "highly trained" (lol) mob in the newbie zone, and then looking to the left and see that little Jimmy with his level 1 newbie stick is beating the same mob, with the same effort :smiley:  and that's not immersion breaking for them?
    "Gee, that sword looks awesome, did you kill dragons with it? Such a great and mighty hero, I'd wager you could help me clear this field without breaking a sweat... wait, you can't?"
    AlBQuirky
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    Iselin
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    Scorchien said:
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    People regularly solo higher level and challenging content in non-scaling games as well. Hell, even raids get incomplete teams or soloers running them even though that's generally supposed to be the group "endgame". So is that system working?

    The often cited examples of D&D as a non-scaling system has always been rife with people doing exactly this kind of thing and utterly breaking and exploiting the system to turn otherwise massive hurdles into nothing. 

    There are people that will figure out how to take on or even break the toughest challenges in any game with munchkin builds and otherwise.

    Should a scaling system, where they can't simply over-level their enemies, be punishing players that are skilled enough to take on such a challenge?
    gervaise1
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    gervaise1AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Oh so now it's a discussion about how ancient MMOs are better? lol. 
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 18
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Oh so now it's a discussion about how ancient MMOs are better? lol. 
    Its not Iselin , the point is you cannot solo that content at level in any of those games .. and many others

      You cannot solo any dungeon at level in FF14 either ... thats newer
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    And yet we got videos showing off players soloing things like Mitaar in Anarchy Online, a specific classic server for EQ2 which ignores that it's regularly done otherwise, a claim about Vanguard, and a claim for UO. Which if you take a moment, you also realize that at least three of those games are pre-WoW titles that used a much more heavy handed approach to level graded content in the first place.

    Which, however, did not prevent any of them from having players exploiting specific builds or game mechanics to solo or even completely undermine the challenge of the game's content any ways.

    Also FF14 kind of enforces group dungeon instances, if you change it in the settings it disables xp/rewards in most cases, and certain bosses utilize one-shot mechanics, kinda why it's not generally done(but does actually get done pretty regularly to farm some dungeons).
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Oh so now it's a discussion about how ancient MMOs are better? lol. 
    Its not Iselin , the point is you cannot solo that content at level in any of those games .. and many others

      You cannot solo any dungeon at level in FF14 either ... thats newer
    But if you look at anything WOW and after- which we all know are easier games - you can... scaling or no scaling.
    Scorchien
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Oh so now it's a discussion about how ancient MMOs are better? lol. 
    Its not Iselin , the point is you cannot solo that content at level in any of those games .. and many others

      You cannot solo any dungeon at level in FF14 either ... thats newer
    But if you look at anything WOW and after- which we all know are easier games - you can... scaling or no scaling.
    well ill agree for sure that there is a lot of games with easier content being made , and that is a product of Devs trying to get the biggest demographic of casual players involved in there games , and in most cases the harder more challenging content is reserved for end game raiders .. (the 5%)

        Ya know , I do like that some games like EQ2 live server now there are differnet difficulty for the Dungeons to ramp the difficulty for even the best groups , right down to a solo player , But the rewards the solo player gets are much less .. But it is a good way to learn your way about some of the dungeons before delving in with a more seasoned group , Maybe something that needs to looked at for future games ..
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Limnic said:
    Not really accurate there. A scaling system creates challenges by having mobs that are fundamentally above the average line for difficulty, something above where a player would otherwise simply level over.

    Point of example is the entire zone of Craglorn in ESO is a group zone, with every challenge there built to be tackled by a team. It's a fundamentally tougher area to take on. Same as with vet mobs in the game, or world bosses, or even the dragons recently added.

    Turns out, there's a pretty wide variety of ways employed to make scaling and horizontal systems have both easy and extremely challenging mobs/obstacles.

    And the argument of wanting things to be easy rests squarely on the non-scaled system as well. Seeing as over-leveling and over-gearing for a zone or enemy is quite common, and completely udermines any challenge a level appropriate mob would otherwise present in a non-scaled system. 

    It's ironic too that you create a straw man and then attack it with a false dichotomy. The claim of no sense of progression is simply a false one. Foremost because as a player obtains new skills and broadens core stats, it does have a direct impact on their ability to handle fights. That orc you talk about for example, yes can be taken on by a level 1 character, but a level 10, even with generally scaled stats, will simply have a wider array of skills to apply and a deeper resource pool to draw from, making dispatching the orc a fundamentally simpler experience. So that "clear this field without breaking a sweat" thing actually could/would play out quite differently, as the higher level player, even with scaled content, could clear that field vastly more efficiently by virtue of his broader scope of skills and stats supporting them.

    The misrepresentation of "immersion" does not benefit you either. It's not the assumption that things are training to scale with you, it's that "a rat is a rat" and "an orc is an orc". You leveling up doesn't magically make them stronger or weaker because you leveling doesn't make you arbitrarily extend beyond the norms of a being of that world. You're still a mortal entity of that game world and your character's power, while on the extreme end of things, is exists relative to what the beings of that world are realistically capable of. You don't get to become some beefcake that can suplex a god just because you hit max level.

    And that's why orcs stay relevant in such a situation, because they are inherently "strong" creatures. Just as rats are inherently weak, but prone to swarms/disease, and other creatures possess their own norms. 

    It's the more immersive element there because things have norms that they vary between, but seldom break, and the players are beholden to that as much as anything else is.

    So how is that immersion breaking to you? Think @AlBQuirky should question the "insightfulness" of such a slanted and misinformed opinion.
    Only problem with your 2nd paragraph is all those things can and are soloed .. So is the system working ?
    I've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling.
    No dungeons in vanilla EQ2 ( Kaladim ) right now can be soloed at level.. None ..... Many things in UO cannot be soloed ( Even with the highest tiered Pet)

      No Dungeons in Anarchy Online can be soloed at level ..

      Noone can solo a Vanguard Dungeon ... on the Emu server or at live

      Couple ex...

        So if we consider that a scaling game is scaling to +/- level ( close to ) it should not be soloable ..

      In the scalable scenario players are soloing the content at level ... true
    Oh so now it's a discussion about how ancient MMOs are better? lol. 
    Its not Iselin , the point is you cannot solo that content at level in any of those games .. and many others

      You cannot solo any dungeon at level in FF14 either ... thats newer
    But if you look at anything WOW and after- which we all know are easier games - you can... scaling or no scaling.
    well ill agree for sure that there is a lot of games with easier content being made , and that is a product of Devs trying to get the biggest demographic of casual players involved in there games , and in most cases the harder more challenging content is reserved for end game raiders .. (the 5%)

        Ya know , I do like that some games like EQ2 live server now there are differnet difficulty for the Dungeons to ramp the difficulty for even the best groups , right down to a solo player , But the rewards the solo player gets are much less .. But it is a good way to learn your way about some of the dungeons before delving in with a more seasoned group , Maybe something that needs to looked at for future games ..
    Yeah I've always liked the idea of solo options for dungeons so players can learn what to expect instead of being passengers in their first few group runs.
    Scorchien
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Kind of a crux issue there. You can't readily compare a title with old styled ideologies to ones with more casual minded ones. Regardless of if it's a scaling system or not, you are going to have the same issues. Which is a fundamental of what @Iselin was pointing out.

    That problem is agnostic to whether a game is scaling or non-scaling. It's hinged on the target challenge that the developers want to build their title(s) around. That's why there are classic shooters for example that don't have any kind of leveling, that are hard as hell. Because the mechanics of the game were tailored to that difficulty regardless.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Limnic said:
    And yet we got videos showing off players soloing things like Mitaar in Anarchy Online, a specific classic server for EQ2 which ignores that it's regularly done otherwise, a claim about Vanguard, and a claim for UO. Which if you take a moment, you also realize that at least three of those games are pre-WoW titles that used a much more heavy handed approach to level graded content in the first place.

    Which, however, did not prevent any of them from having players exploiting specific builds or game mechanics to solo or even completely undermine the challenge of the game's content any ways.

    Also FF14 kind of enforces group dungeon instances, if you change it in the settings it disables xp/rewards in most cases, and certain bosses utilize one-shot mechanics, kinda why it's not generally done(but does actually get done pretty regularly to farm some dungeons).
    Thats on lIve Servers for AO , you cannot do that on the new 2019 (vanilla server), same as EQ2 i have max toons on live and current  Kaladim server , You cannot solo any dungeon at level in EQ2 vanilla . And you cannot solo any dungeon at level on AO2019 ..

      UO is a unique game imo as there are no levels , your stats cap and health with it , you must learn and adapt there (hone your skills and approach) or die , you cannot out level the content and even a seasonsed 7x GM can be easily killed in any of the dungeons or overland areas if you are not paying attention ..
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    There's alot of "vanilla" being thrown about in your post there. Almost as if it's falling right back into the same thing we already addressed about you comparing older titles with a different ideology around challenges within them, which is again a separate issue from scaling vs non-scaling, and as @Iselin already pointed out, most modern non-scaling games fall victim to the same "everything is soloable" condition. Even the one's you've referred to, which is why you have to refer to their vanilla versions instead of modern.

    This also would lead me to refer you back to my comment on D&D;
    "The often cited examples of D&D as a non-scaling system has always been rife with people doing exactly this kind of thing and utterly breaking and exploiting the system to turn otherwise massive hurdles into nothing."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p8#zSdUJwOKYhf4e5vJ.99

    And my shooter example;
    "That's why there are classic shooters for example that don't have any kind of leveling, that are hard as hell. Because the mechanics of the game were tailored to that difficulty regardless."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p8#zSdUJwOKYhf4e5vJ.99

    IE, the idea that a certain title may enforce the theme of bluntly difficult content that cannot be surmounted solo, is a separate issue entirely from scaling vs a non-scaling user experience.

    And your UO description kind of skirts describing a scaled system there too.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 18
    Limnic said:
    There's alot of "vanilla" being thrown about in your post there. Almost as if it's falling right back into the same thing we already addressed about you comparing older titles with a different ideology around challenges within them, which is again a separate issue from scaling vs non-scaling, and as @Iselin already pointed out, most modern non-scaling games fall victim to the same "everything is soloable" condition. Even the one's you've referred to, which is why you have to refer to their vanilla versions instead of modern.

    This also would lead me to refer you back to my comment on D&D;
    "The often cited examples of D&D as a non-scaling system has always been rife with people doing exactly this kind of thing and utterly breaking and exploiting the system to turn otherwise massive hurdles into nothing."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p8#zSdUJwOKYhf4e5vJ.99

    And my shooter example;
    "That's why there are classic shooters for example that don't have any kind of leveling, that are hard as hell. Because the mechanics of the game were tailored to that difficulty regardless."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481815/is-scaling-content-a-good-thing/p8#zSdUJwOKYhf4e5vJ.99

    IE, the idea that a certain title may enforce the theme of bluntly difficult content that cannot be surmounted solo, is a separate issue entirely from scaling vs a non-scaling user experience.

    And your UO description kind of skirts describing a scaled system there too.
    UO does and it actually flies in the face of you wanting to ignore older ideolgies when its 21 years old , and these older games laid all the groundwork and share many similarties to todays offerigs..

      And the fact still stands that in these games you cannot solo the material , which was my point back to Iselin that in many older games you could ..

     And the reasons the content becomes trivialized is also always obvious and unavoidable ,as players grow in Strength after 15 exp of course they can solo content , But they are also outleveled it , My point was referencing at level content could not be soloed like todays offerings at level content in these scalealble games..

      Thats why the need to go back to Vanilla , other wise you cannot compare at Level , when it was designed for groups , it could not be solo , when todays scalable content designed for groups much of it is soloed in just a few days after release..

      I play and enjoy to an extent both systems games like ESO and GW2 bring alot of Fun to the table , as do many of the older games ,  We just need a dev to merge these systems into a viable/fun/profitable game  and we can all have fun in ...
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    If UO does, then that actually reinforces my point as it would then be an old example of such that fits within the framework of the "challenging content" that you were trying to use as counterpoint.

    At no point have I ignored older ideologoes, I have simply noted that the argument of old school versus new school when it comes to the challenges posed by a game, is a separate issue from scaling versus non scaling. 

    In that, a scaling system can still be challenging. Hence why I brought up old school shooters myself as horizontally stable titles that still has clear difficulty to them. Which I can turn around and note that this is at least the second time that you have ignored this outright by not even mentioning it, while I have repeated the point around old school vs new school and scaling vs non-scaling multiple times now.

    So let's not fabricate bullshit and stick to honest statements, k?

    This also ends up where your final statement fails. Because many titles still aren't scalable yet suffer this exact same loss of challenge that you accuse certain titles of.

    What it means, is that the problem again would not be scaling content, but the intended difficulty of content. IE, the overall target experience is simply more casual nowadays. That's irregardless of whether or not the system scales, it's easier in the current version of non-scaling titles you've mentioned just as much as it's present elsewhere.

    Hence again, your desire for vanilla rests on the target challenge being higher, but you are conflating unrelated things erroneously around that subject.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited June 18
    Margrave said:
    I think scaling is terrible. Destroys the feeling of getting stronger on a character.

    If I can't go back to lower level zones and be God-like in aiding friends, then did I ever level up at all?
    But in ESO, a game with scaling, you still become stronger and you can go help your noob friends ! And you will still be of great help !

    Or do you have something to compensate for that you really need to one shot mobs in a video game without any challenge at all ?
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 18
    @Scorchien

    Except your argument hinges on older games and older versions of games being harder, which still has nothing to do with scaling. Hence yet again, the point that modern non-scaling user experiences are in general no more challenging than the scaling content you are trying to complain about.

    And what goalposts were moved? Me quoting the D&D point was a direct address to prior argument, and a direct example counterpointing previous dialogue here.

    On top of that, your dismissal of shooters based on "they don't share many systems" is a horrendously flawed claim at best. Do we need to bring up MMOs like Neocron here to prove you wrong?

    If you wanted to stick to facts, then you would have used actual facts. Such as the fact that EQ2 and AO are still non-scaling titles in their modern incarnation, yet directly suffer the same simplification of challenge most other modern titles have.

    This is again your failing when is comes to that quote from @Iselin, and again why you have to cycle to "vanilla" versions of titles instead of their modern incarnations in order to pose your argument, in spite of those modern versions not being scaled which undermines your very position. You never addressed that original point of his, that looking at any modern non-scaled MMO you still see at-level soloable content(or especially the fact that such content is often simply out-leveled to destroy any challenge posed regardless), you just tried to distance yourself from it. 

    So once again, 

    You can do solo dungeons at-level in modern EQ2 in spite of it being non-scaled.

    You can solo world bosses in modern Rift.

    You can solo dungeons in modern Anarchy.

    etc...

    These non-scaling titles have the exact problem you are trying to claim only exists in scaling systems. And why?

    Your focus on at-level challenge is your largest mistake in this regard. As we can note that modern versions of the game you mention have an easier at-level gameplay than "at their release" even though the content discussed still does not scale in those titles modern versions. Meaning, the at-level challenge is the problem.

    You haven't even managed to address how it is you believe that scaling is the cause of this, even though examples given here are now of non-scaling games with this exact same flaw.

    Because the problem you are complaining about has nothing to do with scaling vs non-scaling, but instead with the target audience and overall challenge posed by modern titles in general just being lower.

    You claiming things are irrelevant to this because you don't want to acknowledge such a blunt truth does no favors to having a reasonable discussion.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Jean-Luc_PicardAlBQuirky
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 18
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Again it does , when the scaling content  that we have and actually exists intended for groups is being soloed
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Dude, I don't think he's gonna get that no matter how many times it's been said to him. I've already spent multiple posts making that point just to be met with "nuh-uh!".
    gervaise1
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Limnic said:
    Scorchien said:
    You can back and forth all day with everyone on this , But for some people ( i am one) Scaling games are easier , and yes they are developed targeting a casual demographic ..

      Shooters matter little to me here and have 0 consideration by me when discussing MMORPG , its apples and oranges , and they dont share many systems , the rest of your post is completely wrong and moving goalposts ..

        once again the point when i entered this discussion was  from Iselin comment of

     "I 've never seen an MMO where people can't solo some or most of the content that is made for groups at their level. But in traditional non-scaled MMOs it's even easier by just outleveling the content. It's how even the worst of the worst used to solo world bosses in ESO before scaling."

       I merely stated Facts that  , that statement is not true and provided evidence of it , the rest of your interjection , means little and does not apply to ,

    The Fact that in those games i listed Noone could solo the content at level when it was released ( outlevleing content does not need to be discussed here ) its like kicking kittens ..

        So once again ,

       You could not solo Dungeons in EQ2 at there release ( go try to solo even Black Burrow at level on Kaladim ) let me know how you make out ..

        You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Rift at there release

        You could not solo Dungeons in Anarchy at there release..

       You could not solo Dungeons or World Bosses in Vanguard

         etc...

        Every where else you want to detract the conversation to just does not matter to that discussion

    Again, challenge has nothing to do with scaling.  It is design choice to make a game easy. You could have scaling with zero content soloable which cannot be done with vertical level.  That is because levels will make old content solo.  Meaning scaling has more difficulty potential.  
    Dude, I don't think he's gonna get that no matter how many times it's been said to him. I've already spent multiple posts making that point just to be met with "nuh-uh!".
    Some people have their head stuck so deeply into the EQ/WoW clone model that they can't imagine things can work differently... and better too.
    LimnicAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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