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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,481
    You have gained a level -- nothing changes. 

    You have to run through baby goblins and wolf cubs -- oops they scale -- guess you have to pay attention when running through the newb zone.

    You have a class pretty much designed to take on +7 level mobs singly and slowly or a class designed to take on huge groups of -3 level mobs.  Sorry -- the mobs are your rank.  Tank class be really bored.  AOE glass cannon -- well you'd better group to fight solo mobs.

    I don't like world scaling.
    GaladournAlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,849
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    Iselinblueturtle13Viper482Steelhelm
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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,540
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    I disagree. It seems that the main point against is that it makes everything the same and trivializes advancement.
    GaladournAlBQuirkyKyleran

    Once upon a time....

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,131
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    And that's when they bother to give reasons that make some kind of sense. Most of it's about how they hate it just because or they use an example that applies just the same to games that don't scale but instead dress up the same rat in a new skin with slightly more polys slap a higher number on it, buff its damage and HP a bit and presto, you're now fighting higher level rats more suitable to your higher level.

    How people can't see that the only real difference is how and when they dole out mobs with more tricks and that your own fighting looks a bit different because they just gave you a new skill when you dinged.

    It's the same grind from beginning to end whether you or the mobs have new level tags on them or not.

    I like the honest way Diablo 3 does it that barely bothers to disguise the grind. You're destroying things at Torment 1 so you crank it up to Torment 10 and now the same mobs are destroying you. You play D3 (or not) because you enjoy the unadulterated grind (or not.) There is no attempt to help you delude yourself into thinking there is something substantially different about the higher torment level. You do the same thing there you do in MMOs but it's raw and unfiltered.

    MMOs just have all kinds of tricks to make you think you're not hitting the same 10 keys at level 100 you were hitting at level 20. They do this by changing the look of the mobs, the GFX of your own more advanced skills and the damage and healing numbers... it's still the same 10 keys more or less though.

    Scaling or not scaling is just such a silly non-issue to fight over. I think the real issue it annoys some people is that it forces a peek behind the curtain at the mechanics and you really, really don't want to look too long behind that curtain because it'll just ruin the immersion for you.
    blueturtle13Torvalgervaise1Amaranthar
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,950
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    I disagree. It seems that the main point against is that it makes everything the same and trivializes advancement.
    That is a game choice.  You can have challenging or easy content in any style of progression.  But the general nature of hard levels limits that anyway. These game generally are not fighters that let you go way beyond your limits.  Either your build, gear or rotation let's you win or it doesn't. 


    Jean-Luc_PicardAmaranthar
  • grndzrogrndzro Member UncommonPosts: 1,153
    No, It's the main reason I hate Elder Scrolls.
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,694
    Yes, it's the main reason I love Elder Scrolls... I love being able to go to any zone while having relevant content there.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 12
    I know I personally like scaling because of while, yes, I like to be able to progress as a character, I also dislike when there is a disparity in the apparent nature of a mob versus it's mechanical one. 

    Like, why is one wolf in a "lvl 10" zone weaker than one in a "lvl 30" zone? In many cases the thinnest of excuses are used as far as reskinning them to say they are a tougher breed of mob or something, and it tends to remain a flimsy excuse at best as Iselin pointed out.

    My preference as a consequence would rather be for mobs to have unique traits to make them challenging, and through horizontal unlocks and at most minor vertical scaling, players can re-balance their stats from a generalist into a specialist role that gives them clear advantages in certain scenarios that caters to their play style. Allowing them to progress in a fashion where they do become masters at certain skills, but not suddenly making a beholder irrelevant because they are a few levels higher.

    Bit of a simplified example, but point there being that I think the idea of players re-balancing stats in order to evolve into specialized roles, and gaining advantages over certain types of challenges in games in that method, just feels more organic to me and does not cause as much loss of relevant content to play. 
    Amaranthar
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,795
    As I said, options. Ironically, options would also turn this long thread to moot... :smiley:

    Put it in the players' hands as a tool. The normal players can play normally, those who want to sit in the mediocre, lukewarm puddle everywhere they go can scale themselves all the time, and the rest can use it on a case by case basis: when in group with a different level player, when in dungeons, etc.

    Is it possible? Of course it is, CO has it, CoH had it (maybe past tense ain't precise now with the private servers), LotRO has it for the dungeons and skirmishes (and for the open world there's the xp disabler, to keep yourself on level with the zone as an option), AoC has it for specific dungeons, plus optional hard mode of zones for returning high level players, etc.

    Why forced scaling is the norm lately then? Because devs are cheap, lazy f.cks, and looks like there's a moderate enough size of players love the mediocre, lukewarm puddle and support those devs... which is both a shame, and the source of long threads like this, since forcing something (forced grouping, scaling, msq, anything) always divide.

    Options. That's the key.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    If the system's designed to accommodate that (such as in all your examples, utilization of instanced environments or disabling of progression, though that last one would run counter to, y'know, progressing), sure, can always have the option to turn scaling off for an easier time I guess.
    Torval
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 595
    Horse shit mechanic.

    For starters, it  practically negates any feeling of your character really progressing and getting stronger and secondly it comes off as lazy because it's just a cop out for dev teams to develop more content at the higher end so they make shit scale and call it content.  Horse shit, dog shit, ant shit, its flat out lazy. 
    Steelhelm
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,633
    For me, scaling the content to fit my character, or the reverse of scaling my character to fit the content, isn't good.
    I like to meet the challenges, and retreat/escape if I have to. It's just not fun to "win" if there's an adjustment to make all things equal.




    There for leaving you behind as you friends progress further.
    Unless you have no friends or your friends finally gave up on you.
    Torval
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  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,795
    edited June 12
    Limnic said:
    If the system's designed to accommodate that (such as in all your examples, utilization of instanced environments or disabling of progression, though that last one would run counter to, y'know, progressing), sure, can always have the option to turn scaling off for an easier time I guess.
    That's a good point - except how you explain then this movement of forcing it into systems which were not designed to accomodate it? ESO, SWTOR, recently Neverwinter (ok, at least that one exploded into their faces, over the month they had to remove more than half of the scaling, but they still seem adamant to keep it at least in a few areas...) all were games with regular progression for years before the "let's scale it" plague engulfed them.

    (edit: while with the same, or even less effort they could've added optional scaling... if leaving the games alone wasn't a possibility the first place)
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 12
    Po_gg said:
    Limnic said:
    If the system's designed to accommodate that (such as in all your examples, utilization of instanced environments or disabling of progression, though that last one would run counter to, y'know, progressing), sure, can always have the option to turn scaling off for an easier time I guess.
    That's a good point - except how you explain then this movement of forcing it into systems which were not designed to accomodate it? ESO, SWTOR, recently Neverwinter (ok, at least that one exploded into their faces, over the month they had to remove more than half of the scaling, but they still seem adamant to keep it at least in a few areas...) all were games with regular progression for years before the "let's scale it" plague engulfed them.

    (edit: while with the same, or even less effort they could've added optional scaling... if leaving the games alone wasn't a possibility the first place)
    Not Sure I can entirely follow or agree with your position. ESO accommodates scaling relatively well from my perspective, and as for the other two titles I cannot speak to them since I have not touched them in a long time, but your concern of them working or not or the mechanic being forced into a system that does not accommodate it well, I see no reason I'd have to explain it because the explanation should be fairly obvious.

    Devs are humans and make mistakes. In spite of what some may want to believe, or have others believe, many devs are every bit as subject to flaws of lacking insight or logic as a "regular consumer". 

    Consequently, devs attempting to change a system and botching it, or trying to wedge a concept into their game that doesn't fit, is bound to happen. Sometimes someone with authority or wisdom catches it, other times enough of the studio thinks it's a good idea and charge right into a mess.

    None of that really seems to tie back to the point I'd made there though. A system that does scale, is not necessarily a system that cannot accommodate scale. Much as a system that scales does not necessarily bar forcing some form of scaling.

    To answer more directly the reason adding scaling to a non-scaling system or vise-versa is not actually as easy as you seem to think, is that use of either style affects a broad scope of the game's balance. It's just simpler to focus on one style or the other generally, because each one handles difficulty tiers somewhat differently in most cases.

    Like ESO does actually utilize a minor degree of voluntary difficulty scaling for regular to veteran dungeons, and they have a decent difficulty scope for players to experience. It does this not by simply scoping mobs up or down in stats (some of that does happen though), but by changing up mob abilities and groups, adding new events to the dungeons, and modifying some of the challenges to create a tougher scenario.

    A non-scaling system tends to have an easier, and often lazier, time of this because it's most immediate method of increasing or lowering the difficulty is to simply modify the present mobs stats up/down. 

    Now, nothing is stopping a non-scaling system from doing something like how ESO handles the move from normal to veteran, but it would mean that each "step" of a non-scaling dungeon would require it's own table to be generated that fits the tier it's being used for. It creates a much larger stack of information for the non-scaling system to keep track of, and a lot more effort on the dev's part to create a variety of different challenges and features for just one dungeon. 

    Or in short, it can outright balloon the development cost of even a single dungeon to try and merge the two styles.

    On the flip-side, it can be way cheaper for the scaling system to accommodate a non-scaling option since it's considerably less intensive to modify the stats of a static table of mobs up and down. However, those dungeons and mobs are generally tuned to meet specific standards, and some forms of challenges and features don't really scale well or at all. Something might accidentally swing from being a moderate challenge to an absolute cakewalk, or the level disparity may not do anything if the specific feature of the dungeon was a binary event.

    So you can accommodate one method in the other in either direction, but you are asking for alot more than you seem to think.
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,795
    Limnic said:
    Not Sure I can entirely follow or agree with your position. [...]
    My position is easy, options. :smiley:
    I like regular progression, I like scaling as a tool (used it plenty of times in the past), and I abhor forced scaling.
    If the thread would be the other way around (scale people against the "forced progression"), I'd say the same, regardless of I prefer regular progression I'd support the addition of optional scaling into them. Because options are always better than a one-way street.


    I'd argue on the second part though. (Forced, overall) scaling is cheaper and easier. Especially on the long run. It's not even up to guessing, devs stated that quite a lot of times, actually that was a common theme in patch notes after most simplification-like changes in games over the last few years: "It's easier for us." (and of course cheaper)
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    That missed the rather big part on development budget and implications of your described preference.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,904
    edited June 12
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,131
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    AlBQuirkyTorvalLimnicKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 517
    The problem isn't scaling but distribution... 

    No zone should be level capped.  Every zone should be populated with every level of NPC or beast imaginable.  The phrase survival of the fittest and the concept of natural selection were created because in the real world, nature is unkind.  The young and old are prey.  They exist right alongside the very dangers that await them or die trying.

    Those thousands of sea turtles that make the run of their life to the sea after birth... most of whom never even make it and the ones that do are no more safe in the water than they were on the land.  Life is a struggle.  It doesn't change because they just dinged a level.  Sure you are no longer the prey of some creatures, you now become the prey of others... those creatures don't patiently wait for you to advance to them, they come looking for you.

    So there should be no level zones for mobs.  A level ?? elite has just as much right to plow through a starter zone as a newb has to ghost run to the other end of the continent.  You can still have levels, they just aren't pigeon holed into a single set of areas... the whole world is their leveling zone.  

    That's what's wrong with level scaling... it was never done right in the first place.  Every inch of WoW should have creatures from level 1 to ??.  Every one of them.  The world gets abandoned because they make the world for levels.


    ScorchienSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,950
    Horse shit mechanic.

    For starters, it  practically negates any feeling of your character really progressing and getting stronger and secondly it comes off as lazy because it's just a cop out for dev teams to develop more content at the higher end so they make shit scale and call it content.  Horse shit, dog shit, ant shit, its flat out lazy. 
    Traditional leveling is the most documented laziest way to do a MMORPG, literally.

    AmarantharKyleran
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,176
    You can still scale a character to level for grouping in if you don't have normally. I don't mind either way in a MMO as long as if you have no scaling their is some sort of levelling "buddy" system.

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,904
    btdt said:g
    The problem isn't scaling but distribution... 

    No zone should be level capped.  Every zone should be populated with every level of NPC or beast imaginable.  The phrase survival of the fittest and the concept of natural selection were created because in the real world, nature is unkind.  The young and old are prey.  They exist right alongside the very dangers that await them or die trying.

    Those thousands of sea turtles that make the run of their life to the sea after birth... most of whom never even make it and the ones that do are no more safe in the water than they were on the land.  Life is a struggle.  It doesn't change because they just dinged a level.  Sure you are no longer the prey of some creatures, you now become the prey of others... those creatures don't patiently wait for you to advance to them, they come looking for you.

    So there should be no level zones for mobs.  A level ?? elite has just as much right to plow through a starter zone as a newb has to ghost run to the other end of the continent.  You can still have levels, they just aren't pigeon holed into a single set of areas... the whole world is their leveling zone.  

    That's what's wrong with level scaling... it was never done right in the first place.  Every inch of WoW should have creatures from level 1 to ??.  Every one of them.  The world gets abandoned because they make the world for levels.


    And that's how UO and AC handled it and why it's one of the better system and proof scaling is not necassary
    Amaranthar
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,904
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.
    The irony is that for me after t1 ESO became EZmode and trivialized nearly the entire game world, in the process it also destroyed any faction meaning .There is no need for any tactics in ESO pve until VET Trials, even all the preceding dungeons runs are all dps spam fests..Groups do not even need a tank or healer 4 dps  is fast and easy , this is very telling. The game is extremely easy and casual and thats exactly what Fior and his team were aiming for.

    Before T1 you could wander into zones and find real challenge and have to fail and find different approaches, not anymore.. now you run in close your eyes and spray .. this is true for 90% of the game , nearly the entire game can be soloed easily ..and this all a direct result of Scaling
    That happened long before level scaling. It was the switch from Veteran ranks to the CP system that made the content easy. It has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the CP power creep.

    And it's only that easy for us with bucket loads of CP. I still see players dying to easy mobs in the overland, delves, dark anchors and public dungeons all the time. It's a totally different experience for the no-CP noobs.

    What you describe about 4 DPS overpowering dungeon runs without a tank or a healer only really works with 4 DPS with 600+ CP points and enough self healing to deal with damage... and I wouldn't recommend trying that in one of the newer DLC dungeons on vet mode lol.


    That's not true at all  from personal experience me and a couple friends were cruising thru dungeons as all dps in just 100+ I even recall picking up players under 100 to run thru dungeons  and it was easy ... there are plenty of videos showing this also
  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,232
    No, b/c I like being OP in games.  I don't want the extra challenge.
    Kyleran
    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,786
    Torval said:
    So far most if not all arguments against scaling are in order to trivialize world content and make it ezmode. lulz and people wonder why MMOs are in this state.

    Way to spin and stretch the points made. Since you believe MMO's are "in this state" that must mean you believe they were once in a better state.....no? Funny....because before they were "in this state" I do not recall any older (imo better) MMO's that featured scaling.
    AlBQuirky
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
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