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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • XarkoXarko Member EpicPosts: 1,155
    I don't mind it, has its perks.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 726
    Personally, I feel that scaling removes the sense of progression and accomplishment, especially if it is coupled with limited hotbar/action combos. It removes any sense of obligation or attachment to my character if it essentially remains the same from Lv 1 to Lv 100. Example: GW2 and ESO. Both great games, but neither keep me for long when I do play them; I never felt as if my character was truly progressing in either game,
    DMKanoJeffSpicoliAlBQuirkyAmarantharKyleranTuor7
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,674
    edited June 11
    Personally, I feel that scaling removes the sense of progression and accomplishment, especially if it is coupled with limited hotbar/action combos. It removes any sense of obligation or attachment to my character if it essentially remains the same from Lv 1 to Lv 100. Example: GW2 and ESO. Both great games, but neither keep me for long when I do play them; I never felt as if my character was truly progressing in either game,


    Yep  - scaling sucks, it makes the gameplay completely pointless to me (I am not a story/lore guy so that is completely lost on me in MMOs)
    EponyxDamorScorchienNanfoodleAlBQuirkyTheocritusAeanderKyleran
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I don't mind scaling, but then again I'm not the type of weenie who runs around one shotting everything in an effort to ruin the experience for new or lower "level" players.

    There's other forms of progression and making the players with more experience feel more powerful outside of raw numbers.
    EponyxDamor
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,250
    I really don't like it myself.  It is ok for grouping but when out in the world doing solo stuff no it shouldn't scale.  If you are going to do level scaling then your levels have no point at all.

    Sometimes it is a good thing to be able to go back an just cream that mob that gave you problems for a long time.  Just think about the feeling you got in WoW when you could go back an one shot Hogger before they redid it.  I mean when the game first came out that mob was wiping people left an right for months.  Hell there were raids formed just to kill him for revenge.  Now insert level scaling into that an you never get that feeling again.

    I am more OK with down scaling people to be able to play with friends in groups.  Take the person that is the lowest an scale everyone in the group to them within reason.  I don't really like the idea of up scaling people or mobs even in groups to be honest.  When you say scaling these days it is just making the hp pool bigger which in itself is just a horrible way to do anything.
    DMKanoTuor7
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    NanfoodleVermillion_Raventhalgervaise1AlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Amathe said:
    I have never enjoyed scaling. You level up from 1 to 60, get new abilities, outfit yourself with better gear and weapons, and you are still challenged by the mobs in the newbie area? No thanks.
    I think it was the scaling changes that finally burnt me out so badly on ESO. I mean it sounds like a great idea that you can go level where ever you want, but it turns what is already a grind into something that feels like you aren't progressing at all. Running to stand still as it were.
    Go back to easier zones once you are 50+ with champion points, and you will see that where you had problems back then or even died, like in public dungeons, you can now progress much easier and no longer risk to die unless you do something stupid or go afk.

    There is progress in ESO, and your character becomes way more powerful than a level 1 newbie, it's just not the harsh vertical progression of EQ/WOW clones that turn you into a god.
    Nanfoodlegervaise1AlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 964
    No.  Scaling is horrible.  It is probably a godsend for players who want never-ending leveling experience, but for people who like games with things to do besides level, it means the core design, gameplay, systems, and especially content are geared towards people who have tastes and thinking anathema to mine.  
    DMKanoTuor7
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    I understand why some players enjoy it as it does help to get players of differing levels to play together, but for me it takes away the feeling of progression. There are other methods to help players play together without adjusting the whole game like CoX's mentor/sidekick feature among others.

    As you mentioned, Amaranthar, it takes away the ability to challenge oneself or even to just let off steam by going into a lower level area and wreaking havoc, just feel powerful :)

    One of the fun features of EQ was getting your backside handed to you by some monster and then going back to take your revenge after leveling up a bit.

    Also, I've only experienced scaling in a downward sense, never upwards, so it's more like "half-scaling" or "one-way scaling" and is hard to justify it in a game. "Oops! I totally forgot how to use these 10 abilities/skills/spells!"

    Does it not also effect other players? If a player (or players) sees another player (or group) in trouble, can they help out? As you can see, I'm not well versed in scaling, as I don't play many games with it ;)
    DMKanoblamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    I dont like it, i like to grind out a couple extra levels where i am at, to go to the next area a little over powered.
    AlBQuirkyk61977Kyleran
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    I dislike the mechanic because I feel like.......what did I just spend all that time leveling for?
    And the developers are like what I just spend all that time making content for as you spend the remainder of your game in 1% of the game.
    Why would players go back to a zone they "defeated" at such a higher level? How is the content being used more often?

    "I wanna go kill some wolves for pelts. I know, I'll go back to that starter zone and get them!" (instead of hunting wolves that drop your pelts in an area that meets your level anyway, or going to that starter zone and "tasking" lower level players to gather the pelts for you for in game money...)

    I'm trying to figure out "why" you (and others) think this content will "forever be relevant" as to keep higher level players coming back. If you say it's to help noobies out, there are better (opinion) mechanics to do this, like the aforementioned mentor/sidekick in CoX. What exactly keeps the old zones relevant and populated?

    Or is this another push to do away with progression (not just character levels)?
    blamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    edited June 11
    Im going to say no just for the fact I enjoyed the old ESO more than the One Tamriel level scaling. I dunno maybe im just a simpleton who needs to be told where and when to move on from a zone. Maybe Iv been playing theme-parks so long iv forgotten how to play these games with any imagination whatsoever (Thx Blizzard) EDIT: O wait NVM
    DMKanoblamo2000Tuor7
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,459
    It will be interesting to see whether WoW's next expansion has "the same version of scaling that they introduced. Their version because as I mentioned above different games have done scaling differently.

    In ESO only c. 20% of the landscape content is scaled these days. And clearly making it possible for people to "go anywhere" appealed since the game when from probably below 1M sales to the just announced 13.5M sales. 

    I specifically said landscape content because ESO also has scaled dungeons. As does WoW etc. Are those who dislike scaling against different levels of dungeons? They are basically the same after all with the mobs beefed up and a few extra mechanics. Remember that in e.g. ESO there are beffed up mobs with extra mechanic as well so if you dislike scaling in landscape .......

    And, as @Iselin noted above ESO has campaign PvP that disables champion points. Get to level 50 and you are at max level for that sort of campaigns. Forever! No need to go and do some PvE every time a new expansion comes out raising the level cap and introducing more powerful gear.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Amathe said:
    I have never enjoyed scaling. You level up from 1 to 60, get new abilities, outfit yourself with better gear and weapons, and you are still challenged by the mobs in the newbie area? No thanks.
    Exactly!

    Let's take a look at old EQ if it had level scaling. You finish a run in one of the planes (top level adventuring) and want to go home (starter city) for whatever reason, maybe to do some banking. Now, those level 1 snakes and and level 2 firebeetles and level 3 gray wolves all swarm on you as you go through that starter zone and maybe even kill you. Bam! You're now on a corpse run from your last soulbind, possibly near the plane you just left, and get more "fun" from that starter zone. What happens to all those noobies? Are they now left with level 50+ mobs to contend with at first level?

    What I see with this "scaling" is a single player, "I want the world to revolve around me!" kind of attitude, where their play trumps all others in the Massively Multiplayer game. I could be wrong, but how else explain this need to "feel challenged" no matter where one finds adventure?

    Maybe it's just my "old school RPG" senility shining through, or I'm just missing the mechanics of scaling :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Nanfoodle said:
    Funny how single player RPGs use scaling and we dont think about the fact that a pack of wolves should always be a challenge but in a MMORPG we want to be able to stand in the middle of a pack of wolves and laugh as they hit us for no damage. I think there is a disconnect here and I dont see how that makes the game fun or a challenge. 
    That's definitely not me. I didn't get into TES IV: Oblivion because I never felt I was progressing in the game world. I don't desire to have every friggin' encounter a challenge. I want easy, medium, and hard encounters in my games.

    Sameness sucks. In all its horrid glory.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    edited June 11
    I don't mind scaling, but then again I'm not the type of weenie who runs around one shotting everything in an effort to ruin the experience for new or lower "level" players.

    There's other forms of progression and making the players with more experience feel more powerful outside of raw numbers.
    Oh, I'm so hurt you think I'm a "weenie." I think I'll go and have a good cry now :lol:

    What kinds of "progression without numbers" can you name?

    PS: Sorry for the run on replies. Late to the game again, as usual :)
    blamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    On the flip side, why did that level 5 Orc give you a battle at level 5 and then, after training harder and gaining new abilities, skills, and/or spells does that same Orc give you the same battle? Are they training in other areas, too?
    Tuor7

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,459
    @ABQuirky

    So you are not a fan of scaled dungeons - normal, vet, mythic etc.

    Serious question btw - no dig intended. As  I realised writing the above post however scaling has been common in dungeons for years and I can't remember any serious threads on "its really bad". 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited June 11
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    But the problem IMO with ESO and GW2 is all those fights play out and feel exactly the same reagrdless of lvl or CP , every fight wether a rat or elite King Guard , feels and plays out the same .. over and over to nauseum ..

        And it should not feel that way , you know the difference in EQ for example from fighting a Rat from an Elite Gnoll Guard even early on , it feels the different the Guard presents a much more difficult fight and challenges , In ESO that Rat and Elite  Guard feel exactly the same .
    EponyxDamorTuor7
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,424
    When it's properly done, it's definitely an awesome feature making the world more immersive.
    For me, ESO nailed it.

    Think of the real world... even a kid can stab a kung fu master and kill him. The concept of a level 10 orc archer that can one shot you when you are level 1, but can't even dent your health when you are level 20, has always been a weak feature of the EQ/WoW clones to me.

    I love the worlds where mobs are designed to be easier or harder depending on similar factors than our world. A mammoth will be harder to kill and will stomp your face harder than some feral rodent. An elite king's guard when be harder to kill than a peon.
    I think this is mostly right.  The main problem I have is when the scaling only accounts for the character/mob HPs, but doesn't scale the abilities or gear correctly.  If games stick to HPs, then what you describe is perfectly true.  It's when the scaling system tries to incorporate gear and abilities that it seems to present problems.

    For instance, if a mage class gets a fire bolt ability at level 30 that does 100 damage.  You put it on a hotkey.  When that character gets scaled down to level 10, do they still have that ability?  What if a 5th level mage is scaled up to level 35, will they get that fire bold ability?  When do they have time to assign hotkeys for the new abilities?  Any mechanic that starts messing with my UI, even indirectly, is a problem for me.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,566
    DMKano said:
    Personally, I feel that scaling removes the sense of progression and accomplishment, especially if it is coupled with limited hotbar/action combos. It removes any sense of obligation or attachment to my character if it essentially remains the same from Lv 1 to Lv 100. Example: GW2 and ESO. Both great games, but neither keep me for long when I do play them; I never felt as if my character was truly progressing in either game,


    Yep  - scaling sucks, it makes the gameplay completely pointless to me (I am not a story/lore guy so that is completely lost on me in MMOs)
    I am most definitely a story/lore kind of gamer.

    But I also want IDENTITY to my characters. That means a clear progression, advancement I can see. And it means that MOBs don't change just for me. The world is what it is, and my character's each have their place in it.

    I just don't want the big Power Gaps because of all the things it ruins.
    That includes gear.
    Smaller Power Gaps, about a 100% difference from newb to max, plus circumstance code (rear attacks, grappling, stuns, etc.) and I think a game can function exceptionally well for a complete range of game play (combat, economics, exploration, experimentation, social interactivity, etc.).

    What I'm getting at is the a solo character as a newb should fear a lone Wolf,
    while at maxed ability should only be worried about a pack of Wolves who can surround them and get special attacks in from the rear, maybe overbear them.
    But "Wolves" should never become something they can simply stand there and ignore.

    And a game with "Wolves" that come in many different levels groups is pretty much the same as scaling, in my opinion.

    ("Dire Wolves" is a separate critter, I am just using typical Wolves in my point above.)
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,040
    blamo2000 said:
    No.  Scaling is horrible.  It is probably a godsend for players who want never-ending leveling experience, but for people who like games with things to do besides level, it means the core design, gameplay, systems, and especially content are geared towards people who have tastes and thinking anathema to mine.  
    I don't quite understand this argument.  Doesn't it take leveling away in a sense?  ESO, for example, is the same game as before but with scaling.   It shouldn't change much for people who do not like leveling as a key feature (even make it better?)  For people who enjoy levelling. . isn't that because they become more visibly powerful when going back to older mobs zones?

    Maybe I am taking your point wrong or even backwards.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    AlBQuirky said:
    I don't mind scaling, but then again I'm not the type of weenie who runs around one shotting everything in an effort to ruin the experience for new or lower "level" players.

    There's other forms of progression and making the players with more experience feel more powerful outside of raw numbers.
    Oh, I'm so hurt you think I'm a "weenie." I think I'll go and have a good cry now :lo:lol:

    What kinds of "progression without numbers" can you name?

    PS: Sorry for the run on replies. Late to the game again, as usual :)
    I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, but if you want to own it by all means do you.

    As it pertains to combat, unlocking new skills, horizontal skill progression, skill customization and abstraction is a good start point. Those are less literal than power creep. It's not a foreign concept either. This might be a tough concept to grasp for people who have dice rolls programmed into their minds.

    Leveled gating is cool for platformed games or those with locked beginning and ends but for MMORPGs it's seems to be a good way to waste environments and sometimes ruin that first experience for new new players.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,250
    blamo2000 said:
    No.  Scaling is horrible.  It is probably a godsend for players who want never-ending leveling experience, but for people who like games with things to do besides level, it means the core design, gameplay, systems, and especially content are geared towards people who have tastes and thinking anathema to mine.  
    It's the exact opposite for people that like leveling.  We like getting stronger than mobs.  It actually ruins the experience for people like myself that enjoying leveling an stop playing games when that high of gaining things through leveling goes away.  Scaling is more for those that hate leveling as there is no point in leveling if the mobs stay the same or take the same amount of time to kill.
    Tuor7
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    gervaise1 said:
    @ABQuirky

    So you are not a fan of scaled dungeons - normal, vet, mythic etc.

    Serious question btw - no dig intended. As  I realised writing the above post however scaling has been common in dungeons for years and I can't remember any serious threads on "its really bad". 
    Really, the only dungeons I've done in MMOs was EQ. No scaling there. I liked that. No scaling made "powerleveling" a thing, not to mention a good way to "test" a group :)

    Do the mentioned WoW (are those WoW?) examples actually scale to the players? I thought they were meant to be tackled when "at the right character/gear level."

    I'm sure many players love scaling in MMOs. Many here like it. I can't say why no "serious threads" have been noted ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

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