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Is Scaling content a good thing?

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077

    If I want an RPG about me I would play single player, multiplayer or RPG as a service. 

    The "service" is maintaining a game over time (otherwise you'd be still playing Pools of Radiance on a 286 computer).

    The RPG part of it, follows you regardless of what game you even play.

    I've been playing the same style Paladin with the same mission since PnP AD&D in 1978.

    How many RPGs have come and gone in 41 years?????

    LONG HAUL gaming!
    SovrathTuor7Scot
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 27
    Y'know, some people value variety.

    And again, a multiplayer RPG has other considerations. Namely, the fact it's not just you participating in that game's world.

    Does every other player have to bend the knee to you in order to deliver that experience you keep espousing? Because if not, then you are going to be facing a very fundamental problem that your character and your character's achievements are simply not unique.

    Instead of being all-powerful, you are just engineering a situation where the world around you is devalued, and the players around you are all the same kind of legendary element. Which in turn renders none of them legendary because you can toss a rock and find another person with the same achievements.

    Long haul into a shallow pond.

    That's the thing about PnP. PnP RPGs were "collaborative" stories created by multiple players interacting togather with a DM to generally guide the user experience. While some of them can play a campaign with a railroaded plot, others were much more sandboxy and the story instead "went with the flow".

    You didn't have characters all becoming demigods every campaign either, and I can honestly say most of my characters never made it into any semblance of godhood, because that went against the types of campaigns we played.

    The RPG part of it is not a linear set of mechanics that can only work one way. It's a set of common elements that governs overarching features of a game, but it says nothing to style of narrative, how linear or open a game has to be, or even whether a game scales or not.

    It feels like a parody of an argument to be sitting there claiming all RPGs have to function one way because that's how you played one character forever.
    Post edited by Limnic on
    Vermillion_Raventhal
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,651
    It works for ESO. My opinion is ... It is based on the game and its design. 
    IselinJean-Luc_PicardVermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkyLimnicHawkaya399Xarko
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,064
    SlyLoK said:
    It works for ESO. My opinion is ... It is based on the game and its design. 
    And also how the scaling is done. ESO did it right.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 905
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    AlBQuirkyScot

    What, me worry?

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,064
    edited July 6
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    AlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,950
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.  You don't need a story at all.  Let alone being the savior of the world playing thousand other saviors doing remedial task to justify content.  

    If you look at difference between a personal car and public bus or train.  Yes they are all vehicles but the operation and purpose are totally different.  You can't just pull over for a pit stop on public transportation.  You don't have control.  It's not a perfect anology but it gets to the point of it needed different things.

    That is one reason why MMORPG lean towards convenience and solo play when you are doing something typically done alone, PvE questing. This is typically done in single player games where you can save and play at your own pace and difficulty.  Imagine not being able to play your single player RPG because of need 4 randoms online or friends who might be sleep or at work.  Then to further the confuse you make everyone the savior of the world to the plot.
    AlBQuirky
  • yucklawyersyucklawyers Member UncommonPosts: 224
    No.
    Fecking cheapest tackiest sh*t you can do to an MMORPG.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,567
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.  You don't need a story at all.  Let alone being the savior of the world playing thousand other saviors doing remedial task to justify content.  

    If you look at difference between a personal car and public bus or train.  Yes they are all vehicles but the operation and purpose are totally different.  You can't just pull over for a pit stop on public transportation.  You don't have control.  It's not a perfect anology but it gets to the point of it needed different things.

    That is one reason why MMORPG lean towards convenience and solo play when you are doing something typically done alone, PvE questing. This is typically done in single player games where you can save and play at your own pace and difficulty.  Imagine not being able to play your single player RPG because of need 4 randoms online or friends who might be sleep or at work.  Then to further the confuse you make everyone the savior of the world to the plot.
    I think most of this comes from books, where "the hero" goes from peasant to savior of the world. Those "fetch and carry" jobs  (I refuse to call them "quests") work at the beginning, when players are just starting out. Unfortunately, most RPGs continue with these things long after we could say to the NPC, "Do you know who I am and what I've accomplished? Get your own damn potatoes to market!"

    Then MMORPGs add content, raise levels, and after saving the world in the original game, you're back to a peon again, albeit a peon with awesome gear :lol:

    PS: I have to say, this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks, Amaranthar :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,064
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
    Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.

    From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
    We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
    Vermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,131
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
    Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.

    From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
    We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
    Ummm... the Night King would like to have a word with you :)
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,064
    Iselin said:
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
    Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.

    From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
    We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
    Ummm... the Night King would like to have a word with you :)
    And at the end he wasn't the great enemy....
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,131
    Iselin said:
    Gutlard said:
    Limnic said:
    That kinda boils down to wanting a power fantasy versus any other form.

    Which is fine, but would hope not every game is like that, because it gets bland when everyone is some chosen-one demigod.
    Why even play a RPG when you're not the central figure in the game? That's WHAT RPGs are about, YOU, and YOUR adventure. YOU being the God of YOUR own fantasy world.

    *Snip*
    You're not the central figure in LOTRO, but it seems to work pretty well, IMO.

    Gut Out!
    The problem is, what Kevyne says has NEVER been what a RPG is all about (ROLEPLAYING), but most if not all computer RPGs are based around you being the savior of the world, so the confusion is understandable.
    Yeah MMORPG are not directly RPG games.
    Neither are computer RPG games without the MMO.

    From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
    We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
    Ummm... the Night King would like to have a word with you :)
    And at the end he wasn't the great enemy....
    The ending kind of reminded me of this old Pogo cartoon:



    GOT had several main threads and we can argue about which was the real main quest but Arya's character growth and her killing the NK is about as standard "unlikely hero kills the UBG" as fantasy fiction gets.

    My favorite parts were the political intrigue and backstabbing but the NK supernatural thread was there from episode 1 until almost the end. And they probably should have ended it there considering how poor and rushed the last 3 episodes were.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    More than the last three.

    And that's kind of the issue. GoT wasn't that cut and dry of an arc until they rushed into the conclusions. We had some far-flung character progressions and multiple characters that could have fulfilled parts of or all of the main prophecy elements.

    Something that would play well to a dedicated multiplayer environment, where there are pivotal things that can happen, but by the virtue of one's own growth and narrative it would allow almost anyone to applicably fulfill a role pr prophecy without being some anointed child.

    That they collapsed all that development at the end of GoT to cut and run shouldn't take people away from the merits of what it previously was or could have been had that ball not been dropped, and as it applies to gaming, that's the sort of difference in narrative that would help push a multiplayer experience over a linear track.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077

    From the earliest CRPGs like Ultima to Skyrim, it's always about you beating the great evil and saving the world somehow.
    We could use more "Game of Thrones" based (MMO)RPGs and less "Tolkien" based (MMO)RPGs.
    Blasphemy!!! :p

    It all started due to Tolkien popularizing a fantasy world (those hippies were on so many drugs as it was). Tolkien couldn't understand it either, and how he became some "superstar". People were asking him what would be good names for their COWS. He had to unlist his telephone number and move for some peace!

    It was because it was a fuller world than some nursery rhyme that game makers had a background for their worlds. D&D was born. I started playing when AD&D came out in 1978, and now too old to change.

    Also, based on Tolkien's personality and upbringing, he would not have approved of video games and what devs did to his universe. He was an atypical British Empire guy (he didn't like Americans and said so) who felt his mom died as a martyr for his religion (he lost everything in a short span of his life, father/mother, then both sides of his family over converting to Catholicism). He was the "T" in traditional.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    If it's that old-hat, that's kinda of another point then that perhaps we should change things up a bit rather than retreading the same thing we've experienced 5-million times. 
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,096
    Oh, sorry, I thought this was the scaling thread! 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,567
    Oh, sorry, I thought this was the scaling thread! 
    Any good "scale models" for Tolkien or GoT?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    Limnic said:
    Y'know, some people value variety.

    And again, a multiplayer RPG
    It's MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

    Not a 40vs40 map game <-- that's multiplayer.

    It's a SPECIFIC genre.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    Limnic said:
    If it's that old-hat, that's kinda of another point then that perhaps we should change things up a bit rather than retreading the same thing we've experienced 5-million times. 
    They could, but this genre is really for people who prefer it. Much like anything retro.

    Kids like other genres and they have it for themselves.

    And it's fine.

    D&D started out that way. It was a niche game that later was popularized. Then the newer generation came, and then left as video games visualized what PnP couldn't and they like other varieties. But D&D is still around to this day, as the same older folks still play it.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Limnic said:
    If it's that old-hat, that's kinda of another point then that perhaps we should change things up a bit rather than retreading the same thing we've experienced 5-million times. 
    They could, but this genre is really for people who prefer it. Much like anything retro.

    Kids like other genres and they have it for themselves.

    And it's fine.

    D&D started out that way. It was a niche game that later was popularized. Then the newer generation came, and then left as video games visualized what PnP couldn't and they like other varieties. But D&D is still around to this day, as the same older folks still play it.
    And how many versions of not just D&D, but PnP in general now exist? Are they all the same, or is there a broad spattering of variants?

    Even when talking about a narrow scope of concepts, there is a lot of ways it can and has been interpreted, because doing the same thing over and over again burns consumers out. Change is a necessity in all factors of life, even entertainment.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Limnic said:
    Y'know, some people value variety.

    And again, a multiplayer RPG
    It's MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

    Not a 40vs40 map game <-- that's multiplayer.

    It's a SPECIFIC genre.
    Yes, one that none of your dialogue thus-far reflects upon.

    The fact that MMO as a mechanic, is about networking hundreds if not thousands of people together in real-time to create a dyanmic experience where it's not just one person or a hand full of people participating in the world and it's plot(s), but tons of people each seeking out their own element of that together.

    Which butts heads directly with your hero's journey and classic RPG rhetoric, because it again runs headlong into the classic "chosen one" problem.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
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