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Is Scaling content a good thing?

AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,337
For me, scaling the content to fit my character, or the reverse of scaling my character to fit the content, isn't good.
I like to meet the challenges, and retreat/escape if I have to. It's just not fun to "win" if there's an adjustment to make all things equal.




Once upon a time....

MendelRueTheWhirlAlBQuirkySteelhelm
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Comments

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,560
       I dislike it and hate when it rears its ugly head in any game , Terrible mechainic IMO
    MendelPo_ggAmarantharTheocritusDMKanoKyleran
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,063
    No, I like the idea of scaling some content to allow grouping with friends while they level or quest, but I hate the idea of the entire game scaling. If the game scales there's no sense of progression, you might see numbers get higher but you don't feel anything change.

    If it's done like FFXIV where you can group for dungeons and it caps your level at the dungeon cap, that feels okay because at least then you are able to play any level dungeon with friends and it keeps the lower level content populated. 
    ScorchienAlBQuirkyKyleran
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,212
    I think scaling content can be a good thing, but not the way it's currently done.

    Scaling content ='s increasing enemy HP.  I would prefer it makes the encounters tougher, but keeps the enemies the same.

    Further more, when you level scale.... you pretty much are saying.. levels don't matter.  I hate that too.

    If you're going to scale every single battle and area to whatever your level is, why even have levels?  Yeah you may be level 80.. but here.. you're 15.. deal with it. 
    RueTheWhirlAlBQuirky



  • newbismxnewbismx Member UncommonPosts: 110
    edited June 10
    Its a terrible mechanic- Feels totally artificial and prevents you from ever really getting 'stronger'-

    Used to lov e back in open world RPGs when I could finally stay alive in the harder areas- Felt accomplishment when I could revisit an area I was destroyed in and actually survive...Level scaling kills all ...In a terrible and stupid way.

    "Hey you're level 1 so the entire world is level 1-3...Worry not if you run across rare and incredibly powerful creatures since they will all be within your level range...for the entire game".

    How did this ever even become a thing?
    AlBQuirkyScorchien
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 2,995
    A relatively new concept, but it just doesn't seem to work like the developer's intended.  It was supposed to help bridge level gaps between players, but doesn't seem to achieve that goal in games like ESO.  In effect, it needs work.  Sad for me, I want the genre to evolve, and the major effort to evolve the game results in this type of change.



    AmarantharAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • mmoloummolou Member UncommonPosts: 178
    In a way it is a good thing, like in ESO, where everyone is scaled up to the same cp as mobs, so that no matter what level you actually are, you can play with higher level friends, in any zone and contribute.
    It is also a bad thing, as it makes most of the content feel trivial for the higher level players, and it makes it a bit too easy for lower levels.

    I cannot remember which MMO it was, but I do recall playing a while back, and you could mentor lower level players, basically reducing your character level to theirs, but you kept your armour/weapons and skills, so you could play with them at their level, helping them catch up to you, and in my opinion it was a better system.
    AlBQuirky
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,667
    I think EQNext had a great idea, remove the level system. Your character would advance by your skills become more complex and more skill set combos. But a Tier 4 char could go into a Tier 1 area and still find challenging game play. Of corse we never got to see this idea executed but would turn game development on its head. A MMO at launch 80% of the content created is for leveling and 20% is for top level chars. With a system like this, 90% would be for all chars and only 10% would be for the new players who need to learn the game. IMO, this is the type of system MMOs need to start to take on. 
    AlBQuirkyCatibrie



  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Level scaling is a compromise vs. having levelless system.  It makes sense for the developers because you are not squeezing your content like toothpaste roll to feed vertical progession.  

    You allow your customers to play with veteran friend.  You take pressure of your content if you are smart because the max level grind kills content. You whole world is viable for end game content vs. a few max level areas.  

    The main con is you have a few people who fell like they aren't progressing and others who want to once shot newbie creatures.  I can live with that audience not being happy.  I think in games like ESO you still level up skills.  
    Gdemamialkarionlog
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,458
    I like scaling when it keeps lower level content from becoming trivial, but don't like it if it allows access to higher level content.
     
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 590
    I've played it both ways. I think I prefer non-scaling. I like how LOTRO does it with the different difficulty types of mobs also. 

    Am I allowed to add this? https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Difficulty_Indicators

    You'll be in an on-level area and see one of the tougher Signature/Elite+ mobs that can kick your butt if not careful or you'll find whole areas with the tougher difficulty mob types. You can either tread carefully on-level or Fellowship up!

    It would be nice to do that New Game+ type of thing i've mentioned before, in quest areas for harder content/better gear/more grouping if wanted.

    Like an entire LOTRO map with different difficulty levels like Diablo or WoW Mythic+. Could you imagine The Shire at Mythic+ levels offering harder quests and better gear? EPIC!

    Try delivering pies while being chased by a rabid pack of Wargs!  >:)

    Gut Out!
    RueTheWhirlAlBQuirky

    What, me worry?

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 5,922
    edited June 11
    Lets turn it on its head: is it a good thing if, once you reach max level, you can walk through e.g. Mordor because everything is grey con?

    Is it a good thing if every WoW expansion starts from scratch by simply adding a few levels making all your previous effort totally pointless? A technique which also means that the devs don't have to come up with "creative difficulty" since all the new mobs are more powerful than you.

    There were some - then - EQ1 devs some years ago who gave an interview / article about how careful they were when introducing new gear. And why they came up with EQ1's horizontal scaling, making characters slightly more powerful but also more adaptable.

    WoW, of course, introduced scaling for its last expansion but it was on a par with the OP's suggestion: the mobs were simply harder. No need to really focus on mob mechanics. And based on the feedback it had multiple "hiccups". 

    ESO in some ways resembles EQ1 - although its horizontal levelling approach fits in well with ES lore of old. It does now anyway.

    When it launched it was a hybrid of "traditional" levels coupled with mob scaling. To expalin: it launchedowith three "alliances" worth of content. Completing your chosen alliance - level 1-10, 11-20 ... 41-50 - unlocked the content of the other two alliances. Which you completed fighting mobs that had been scaled up by "50 levels" if you were below cp80 or by "2 x50 levels" if you were cp160.  Not good.

    Lots of feedback. People didn't like it coupled with people who wanted to "go anywhere". The latter doesn't fit at all with traditional level designs! A new character going to a high level area is toast.

    So ESO changed. All mobs have a base level - some are harder than others but they all have the same base level - and new players are boosted until they get to cp160. So boosted for about two-thirds of the original content. These days that represents c. 20% of the content. And the new content - in particular - is "easier" or "harder" based on the mob mechanic. The horizontal scaling that kicks in after you hit cp160 makes things easier as well - but slowly.

    And one side effect of this is that you can die anywhere. Every mob, in every zone cons. You cannot take liberties and just run through the hordes of Mordor ... because you are at level cap.


    So at the end of the day I think it is more about how the game hangs together. If, for example, a game had some sort of scaling but you were the very first person ever to play through the content and so had no way of knowing did it work? 
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
    Vermillion_RaventhalTorvalAlBQuirkyLimnic
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,589
    mmolou said:
    I cannot remember which MMO it was, but I do recall playing a while back, and you could mentor lower level players, basically reducing your character level to theirs, but you kept your armour/weapons and skills, so you could play with them at their level, helping them catch up to you, and in my opinion it was a better system.
    That'd be CoH / CO. I used those as example before (the topic of scaling pops up at least once every year... just the forum search is pretty wonky), and I can only repeat that:

    Scaling is just a tool. When placed into the players' hands, it can be useful - as long as it's optional. When the player decides how s/he wants to play the content, or when grouped with friends of different level they will get carried or the player adjust the levels.

    Forced scaling (GW2, ESO, SWTOR, the list could go on as it gets more popular by lazy developers, most recently Neverwinter and its failed new module) is in competition for the stupidest idea in any RPGs where the very base key is progression...

    For the thread's title:
    Optional scaling as a tool for the players - good thing.
    Forced scaling as a dev decision - among the worst things.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,667
    edited June 10
    I think the big problem is the leveling system. Most MMOers dont need to level a char to learn a class or a game. The learning content could be short and fast. Kinda like when I returned to WoW 6 months ago. They taught me the class and skills in 20 min in a special zone and I was back to playing the newest content. Why cant all areas in a game not be like that? Teach me my class and chuck us in the deep end?  
    ShaighCatibrie



  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Po_gg said:
    mmolou said:
    I cannot remember which MMO it was, but I do recall playing a while back, and you could mentor lower level players, basically reducing your character level to theirs, but you kept your armour/weapons and skills, so you could play with them at their level, helping them catch up to you, and in my opinion it was a better system.
    That'd be CoH / CO. I used those as example before (the topic of scaling pops up at least once every year... just the forum search is pretty wonky), and I can only repeat that:

    Scaling is just a tool. When placed into the players' hands, it can be useful - as long as it's optional. When the player decides how s/he wants to play the content, or when grouped with friends of different level they will get carried or the player adjust the levels.

    Forced scaling (GW2, ESO, SWTOR, the list could go on as it gets more popular by lazy developers, most recently Neverwinter and its failed new module) is in competition for the stupidest idea in any RPGs where the very base key is progression...

    For the thread's title:
    Optional scaling as a tool for the players - good thing.
    Forced scaling as a dev decision - among the worst things.
    It's not failed.  It is the eventuality.  It easy to say make throw away content so I can feel more power in places I no longer travel 99% of the time.  
    alkarionlog
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,538
    I don't like it generally. I like getting better at things. In 50 levels I want to be able to destroy the thing I had difficulty with at LVL 1(whether it's skill levels or character levels).

    I'm ok with scaling instances to party size and you determining the level is fine like in COH. But automatic scaling of content to your leveli generally don't like.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member RarePosts: 2,364
    scaling is troublesome if not done right, remember oblivion when bandits start to show using glass and draedric gear? does make sense a bunch of highwayman using this? not, the same way a elite guard using iron or bronze when the top grade is runic and they should be using runic since they are elite guards or soldiers

    scaling do make things trivial, I say make scaling to only work to raise lvls and in some cases not better gear or enemy lvls, but numbers, it does make sense if in the mountains a bandit lord get enough infamy to atract more followers, maybe some could steal some steel weapons, but most would use the same iron bronze grade but you now have to fight bigger numbers, and more archers

    but yes most game scaling are done wrong, new vegas did some scaling right, like even on low lvls you kinda can't take the death claws on low lvls, but at the same its fucking idiotic on fallout 3 you one shot super mutants everywhere on lvl 1 with a 10m pistol
    AlBQuirky
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,538
    edited June 10
    I don't think adding levels or gear makes anything you did pointless. It does give you new things to work towards.

    I don't agree the that the point if leveling is to learn my class. That happens in maybe the early levels. The rest of leveling is because we enjoy progressing our character.
    AlBQuirkyKyleranScorchien
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,667
    I don't think adding levels or gear makes anything you did pointless. It does give you new things to work towards.

    I don't agree the that the point if leveling is to learn my class. That happens in maybe the early levels. The rest of leveling is because we enjoy progressing our character.
    If only the early level teach you the game and the content you are playing is because you enjoy it, why do you need to level making that area useless to you in 10 levels? How many times are you having fun in an area and forced out because the content turned green or grey con to you? Wouldnt it be awesome if content just came in different sets, solo, teamed, raid and rewards were scaled to the type of content you were playing? Solo drops solo level quality etc. And the game gave you advancements in other ways like ESO skill system that lets you advance your skills?
    Catibrie



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,538
    edited June 10
    Because, as I said,I enjoy getting better. If the content of the game is always the same level as my character then my character isn't really getting any better.

    Just give my the chance to turn xp on or off as I see fit. 

    Eventually I do want those mobs to be Grey.
    NanfoodleAlBQuirkyKyleran
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,667
    Because, as I said,I enjoy getting better. If the content of the game is always the same level as my character then my character isn't really getting any better.

    Just give my the chance to turn xp on or off as I see fit. 

    Eventually I do want those mobs to be Grey.
    So the only way you would want to play a game is by advancing levels? Advancing skills, items, pets or any other alternative advancement just would not fly for you? If no, can I ask why?
    Catibrie



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,538
    If you read my post I also said in brackets whether that be character or skills
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Because, as I said,I enjoy getting better. If the content of the game is always the same level as my character then my character isn't really getting any better.

    Just give my the chance to turn xp on or off as I see fit. 

    Eventually I do want those mobs to be Grey.
    You have to think from a developers standpoint...  you want to feel powerful.  They want their content to be relevant because they spent thousands on it. Lore wise it make sense that a world ending threat can't be beat by a naked mage in melee 3 expansions later.  

    I think level scaling is a half measure.  A shallow vertical progression would allow to get stronger with gear and skill but not have the huge power gap that negates content because it's lower level.  
    NanfoodleAmaranthargervaise1
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,560
    Because, as I said,I enjoy getting better. If the content of the game is always the same level as my character then my character isn't really getting any better.

    Just give my the chance to turn xp on or off as I see fit. 

    Eventually I do want those mobs to be Grey.
    You have to think from a developers standpoint...  you want to feel powerful.  They want their content to be relevant because they spent thousands on it. Lore wise it make sense that a world ending threat can't be beat by a naked mage in melee 3 expansions later.  

    I think level scaling is a half measure.  A shallow vertical progression would allow to get stronger with gear and skill but not have the huge power gap that negates content because it's lower level.  
    FF11 and FF14 handle this best with there Jobs system , No content ever becomes negated ..

     UO also handles this well as even a 7 x GM with years of Experience can be killed in the E Brit woods if you are not on your toes
    Amaranthar
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,667
    Because, as I said,I enjoy getting better. If the content of the game is always the same level as my character then my character isn't really getting any better.

    Just give my the chance to turn xp on or off as I see fit. 

    Eventually I do want those mobs to be Grey.
    You have to think from a developers standpoint...  you want to feel powerful.  They want their content to be relevant because they spent thousands on it. Lore wise it make sense that a world ending threat can't be beat by a naked mage in melee 3 expansions later.  

    I think level scaling is a half measure.  A shallow vertical progression would allow to get stronger with gear and skill but not have the huge power gap that negates content because it's lower level.  
    Ya, this is whats killing this market, so much money for content that does not get used but later by a few leveling an alt. 
    Catibrie



  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,275
    Personally I like it. And to me it's not so much about removing level gaps between players as it is about keeping every zone in the world relevant at any level.

    But it needs to be done carefully to keep the all-important sense of progression alive despite the scaling.

    It works in ESO because that game has always had individual skill lines that progress totally apart from the base character level based on either use of skills from a skill line, PvPing, doing dungeons, finding lore books, etc. There are always character progression goals that have nothing to do with base character level. The impact of character level on the progression power curve in ESO has always been minimal compared to the other progressions built in - this has always been the way even before scaling was introduced.

    The other thing they did simultaneously with scaling was that they added zone-specific gear set drops to each zone - 3 sets per zone - that drop at your level. A lot of those sets can be incorporated into advanced "end-game" builds and they're equally useful if you get that gear at lower levels. That reinforces what I said in my 1st paragraph about keeping zones relevant at all levels being their primary motivation as well as giving them the ability to release new content that is not level locked at all.

    Torvalgervaise1NanfoodleAlBQuirkyKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
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