Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

How Were Pre-WoW MMOs DIfferent?

13

Comments

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 219
    If you notice, community is being thrown around a lot. Some may think newer games have a good community, but it was nothing like the old MMOs.

    With older MMOs you had a zero percent chance of getting anywhere on your own. You had a zero percent chance of getting anywhere if you were an ahole, selfish, uncooperative, crybaby, etc. You needed others to advance in the game. Your name meant something. Guilds and guild reputation meant something. Once branded negatively, it was extremely difficult to get anyone to help you, and you absolutely needed people. Even outside of the game, the boards were extremely harsh on people who were douches and extremely helpful and fun for those who were easy to get along with.

    New MMOs are all soloable. Grouping is mostly optional and when it's required, it's more automatic than purposeful in who is selected. Names mean little. Reputation means little. Community is shallow and almost meaningless in comparison.

    All the other differences in old vs new MMOs revolve around this key factor.
    Well of course EQ had ahole guilds which I am sure welcome ahole people. We had one on our server in EQ and I am sure they exist in other games. They of course got in trouble and were even disbanded by a GM once but they reformed using a slightly different name. 
    ultimateduck
  • foppoteefoppotee Member UncommonPosts: 170
    To me, EQ will always be the pinnacle of "old school" mmos.  I've played other real good mmos, but EQ was my introduction into mmos.  The multi-zone corpse-runs (argh).  The paying for Spirit of the Wolf.  The paying for a Druid or Wizard port.  The early-on trading bazaar formed by the community in the cave, I think, at East Commons.  Spawn camping for that npc with a barely calculable % for that 1 item you wanted. Most of EQ was not soloable, most groupable, seconded by raiding & that was the end-game focus.  I remember learning my 1st in-game language at teh bottom of a Kelethin elevator, thanks to a Breezers, when I didn't even know there were in-game languages to learn.  Am I glad mmos are now more soloable & player-friendly nowadays?  Absolutely, I'm not a kid anymore & I simply don't have the time to waste & wait around, but I still have fun with today's mmos.  I do wish there was a current era EQ with some slightly easier play mechanics, but damn EQ was fun.  I remember the top guild on my server was Blood of the Spider (BotS), I think it was, but I never ran into a "rude" player of that guild.  However there were some rude players just like there are now in any mmo.  I ended-up unsubbing to EQ simply because I saw I was falling behind SOE's expansion releasing pace, pitiful customer service btw, & one of my favourite things is to explore & see the zones' visuals in any mmo & once I realize I cannot accomplish that I begin calculating whether to keep playing.  MMO companies should realize we create & invest into our characters.  If we cannot progress with our characters then it becomes sort of useless to keep subbing or more dominantly nowadays to buy transactions in a mmo.  Just imo.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,115
    The bigger focus on community and working together rather than being a game you can play solo.

    HOWEVER the biggest difference is they were all different from one another. Once WoW hit and made it's mark everything started to meld together into this generic pile of repetitive mush trying to recreate WoW's success.
    ikcinRhygarthAlBQuirkyultimateduck
  • YourFriendDavidYourFriendDavid Member CommonPosts: 1
     One of the big difference i have notice is the social aspect, cause most things couldnt be done solo in the games before EZ mode mmorpg came along you had to be social and find groups unless you were one of the few classes that could solo then sit for 15 minutes medding back your mana, reputation actually meant something back then, if you were an asshole leveling or getting gear became alot harder so the most toxic ppl got weeded out (not completely of course but no where near as many toxic ppl thanks to auto grouping dungeons now)
    ikcin
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    Before WoW the goal of the most developers was to create immersive open world game. So they were trying better graphics, better physics - WoW had negative impact even on that. But also, as the open world means competition and need of cooperation among the players, the developers were trying to create many different mechanisms for socialization implemented into the game. In fact Everquest first nerfed the open world. But WoW broke it. After WoW many players expect, even many people here, that the MMO should have solo content. And solo means no competition, no cooperation, no socialization. In fact no MMO. While Blizzard said - now, with WoW you have the free choice to play alone in a multiplayer game.  And that was appealing then for the majority of the players, as most of them came from the offline games. WoW created an online solo RPG with multiplayer instances. Solo also means safe - as the mobs are made to be beaten. So except the instanced raids, WoW created the expectation that the MMO should be an easy game. 

    Without WoW probably the boom of the MMORPGs would come years later with the rise of the online auditory. But with a very different gameplay. And now there would be MMORPGs with big immersive open worlds, and they would be the most played games. Instead the gaming industry stepped back to multiplayer formats like mobas and battles royales - in fact the limited FPS multiplayer map with added RPG elements.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,420
    Limnic said:
    So it's a repetitious reflex/twitch skill.
    If it's repetitious, how can it be reflexive?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,385
    Sick of twitch skills.
    AlBQuirkySteelhelm
    image
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,420
    Another aspect of older MMORPGs was the chance to fail that is gone from today's games. Your crafting always creates an item. Your spells always cast when you hit that button/key. The chance for failure is now only in the combat area.
    Amaranthar

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member UncommonPosts: 207
    Games we play are basic carrot and stick, or monkey hooked up to a wire in the pleasure center of the brain. Give them the ability to keep pushing that button to get rewarded, and keep them hooked and alive as long as possible.

    People confuse what MMO games were built for. First ones were built to try to get everyone to spend more hours paying and playing. Everything since then has been to refine that process.

    Believe it or nor...but UO was the first game that was easy mode..and made where it was quite easy to solo. People blame WOW...but UO was first.

    EQ was a throw back to muds, to get people to spend crazy amounts of time playing to achieve anything.

    WOW was just the first that got the refining process right, and was rewarded. Easy to get that jolt of pleasure from rewards. Easy for almost everyone to join and play.  

    Only real "clones" are the zombie players jumping from game to game, expansion following additions...all looking for those fast fixes...keep pushing those buttons....
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,041
    btdt said:
    Believe it or not a streamer said this last night on one of the WoW classic beta streams...

    Vanilla WoW wasn't hard... in fact, no game is really hard... once you figure out the mechanics, they're ALL easy.  

    I agree with that.

    A hard game would be one that forever changes based on your input... being that if it knows you are going to try and sneak by them, they learn to detect stealth... and so forth.  That would be a hard game.  A game that is static... and most games are because they have no real intelligence to adapt to players, can never really be hard.  Your toughest adversary is always other players... not NPCs. 

    And in regards to whether a quest giver does or does not have a ! over its head... that's moot.  Once someone knew where it was, everyone did... either by word of mouth or other means.  Did not knowing there was a quest there break the game?  No.  Make it hard?  No.  It just slowed you down... a bit. 

    To brutally honest... all MMOs back in their heyday would have been dog shit if it weren't for the fact of one simple thing... the people who chose to play them.  And let's be frank... some of those people were dip shits.  So even Eden had its serpent back then.  

    If Everquest and UO and the like were such great games... why did most people stop playing them?  Same old same old drives folks away no matter if it's 1984 or 2019.  


    Played EQ for 5 years....Alot of my friends left for EQ2 and WoW, they were new......Couldn't justify paying a sub anymore....Like many here have said, the game itself wasn't great, but the community was....Never found another like it afterwards.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,776
     One of the big difference i have notice is the social aspect, cause most things couldnt be done solo in the games before EZ mode mmorpg came along you had to be social and find groups unless you were one of the few classes that could solo then sit for 15 minutes medding back your mana, reputation actually meant something back then, if you were an asshole leveling or getting gear became alot harder so the most toxic ppl got weeded out (not completely of course but no where near as many toxic ppl thanks to auto grouping dungeons now)
    Welcome to our forums! :)

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • LumarnthLumarnth Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    Long time lurker, forgot my login... lol It's really sad, I read more about MMO's than playing them.

    Anyway, I wanted to comment on this thread as one of the few that started with BBS Door games (Legend of the Red Dragon) and also beta tested Meridian 59. As I know community and such has been brought up a lot here... But I wanted to also point out that old school MMO's were all about grouping and you could very seldom get to "end game" soloing.

    I remember a time in FFXI when you'd see someone in Jeuno looking for a group day after day week after week... but you recall grouping with said player and THEY WERE TERRIBLE. They never got past late 30s early 40s. I guess what I'm trying to say is you had to group and if you were terrible you didn't get invited to groups and were weeded out. Only the "elite" few would see all the content the game had to offer.

    You'd never see that in today's MMO world... 




  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    So it's a repetitious reflex/twitch skill.
    If it's repetitious, how can it be reflexive?
    It's not going to become reflexive if it's not repeated often enough to become a reflex as opposed to a conscious reaction.

    So they kinda go hand in hand.
    AlBQuirky
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    edited June 9
    The real problem of WoW was the US capitalism. In the EU the capitalism was focused and in many aspects it is still focused on the product or the service itself. You do not make business for money. You make it because you have a good product or service. That is why the German beer is the best. They sell beer, but they do not make beer for money. The make beer for the beer. That is why a German or Dutch brewer will never copy a US beer no matter of the amount of the sales.  I think you got what I mean.

    While the US capitalism is about the profit. So you copy the most profitable model. You compete often with better marketing instead with better product. You make what you think will sell most instead what you think will be better as product or service. It is very aggressive, unforgiving and dehumanized capitalism focused on the profit and the competition. And that business dominates the gaming industry. That is why all copied WoW. That is why now we look for games from indie developers as often they create game for the game, instead for the profit. And this is maybe the biggest difference. Before WoW the MMORPGs were made for the game.
    ultimateduck
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,420
    Limnic said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Limnic said:
    So it's a repetitious reflex/twitch skill.
    If it's repetitious, how can it be reflexive?
    It's not going to become reflexive if it's not repeated often enough to become a reflex as opposed to a conscious reaction.

    So they kinda go hand in hand.
    Ah. I was thinking along the lines of quicktime events (QTE), where reactions were timed to different stimuli, different from each other.
    Limnic

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,776
    Lumarnth said:
    Long time lurker, forgot my login... lol It's really sad, I read more about MMO's than playing them.

    Anyway, I wanted to comment on this thread as one of the few that started with BBS Door games (Legend of the Red Dragon) and also beta tested Meridian 59. As I know community and such has been brought up a lot here... But I wanted to also point out that old school MMO's were all about grouping and you could very seldom get to "end game" soloing.

    I remember a time in FFXI when you'd see someone in Jeuno looking for a group day after day week after week... but you recall grouping with said player and THEY WERE TERRIBLE. They never got past late 30s early 40s. I guess what I'm trying to say is you had to group and if you were terrible you didn't get invited to groups and were weeded out. Only the "elite" few would see all the content the game had to offer.

    You'd never see that in today's MMO world... 




    You are not really a member of our forums until you post, so welcome to the forums! :)
    Kyleran

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,041
    Lumarnth said:
    Long time lurker, forgot my login... lol It's really sad, I read more about MMO's than playing them.

    Anyway, I wanted to comment on this thread as one of the few that started with BBS Door games (Legend of the Red Dragon) and also beta tested Meridian 59. As I know community and such has been brought up a lot here... But I wanted to also point out that old school MMO's were all about grouping and you could very seldom get to "end game" soloing.

    I remember a time in FFXI when you'd see someone in Jeuno looking for a group day after day week after week... but you recall grouping with said player and THEY WERE TERRIBLE. They never got past late 30s early 40s. I guess what I'm trying to say is you had to group and if you were terrible you didn't get invited to groups and were weeded out. Only the "elite" few would see all the content the game had to offer.

    You'd never see that in today's MMO world... 




    That might've been a big part of the problem though...i remember in EQ the tanks had to have a certain amount of HP/AC or they got rejected...In WoW, they wanted players with a certain gear score or they got rejected...In time, players tire of this....Weeding out isn't necessarily good because you are also losing players.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,826
    My take on this:

    early MMOs: make them work for it, it will mean more.

    WoW: get them back to the fun ASAP. If it’s not fun cut it out.

    i wouldn’t say either one is right or wrong, I could make a good case either way.
    blueturtle13AlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,041
    edited June 11
    After awhile, I saw EQ as basically making it take as long as possible to drain as much out of sub paying customers as possible....It is why even to this day I despise the P2P model.
    AlBQuirky
  • Shanky_ShankyShanky_Shanky Member UncommonPosts: 33
    Old MMOs were all about community but to be honest I never was entertained with any of them (and I played plenty) - it took too much time to achieve anything...
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,993
    edited June 11
    Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but older MMORPGs weren't afraid to let a player vary their builds or even screw up their character entirely.

    Lineage 1 and DAOC both had class or racial stats during character creation which influenced what weapons you could best use, summon more pets, or do higher burst damage at the expense of endurance.

    They also tended to lock a player into a build more, there were few or no respecs, or very cost prohibitive, so choices mattered.

    These may seem like negatives, but it definitely imparted more of feeling like your choices mattered, and influenced your experiences later in the game.

    EQ had a racial faction mechanic I believe which influenced what cities a player could enter safely, someone who played it can probably explain better.



    Vermillion_Raventhalblueturtle13AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,420
    Kyleran said:
    Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but older MMORPGs weren't afraid to let a player vary their builds or even screw up their character entirely.

    Lineage 1 and DAOC both had class or racial stats during character creation which influenced what weapons you could best use, summon more pets, or do higher burst damage at the expense of endurance.

    They also tended to lock a player into a build more, there were few or no respecs, or very cost prohibitive, so choices mattered.

    These may seem like negatives, but it definitely imparted more of feeling like your choices mattered, and influenced your experiences later in the game.

    EQ had a racial faction mechanic I believe which influenced what cities a player could enter safely, someone who played it can probably explain better.



    Good mention!

    Yes, EQ had "factions" that differed the play. Racial was one, religion was another, and mobs you fought had their own factions, too. The Velious expansion had he Dwarves vs Giants factions. Help the Dwarves, make the Giants mad and vice versa. Killing animals as a Druid or a Ranger could cost you their faction standing and make the animals attack on sight.

    Also, at character creation in EQ, you were allotted points to put into abilities. You could mess that up, but not game breakingly so. Now, EQ auto-points each character you create for "optimum builds", though you can manually redistribute them :)
    Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 219
    edited June 12
  • Nelson-zbitNelson-zbit Newbie CommonPosts: 26
    Lineage II (early versions):
    1): Maps with little GPS, just mark a symbol on the map, and won't tell you what kind of dangers lies on your road.
    2): Jobs/Skills System vague at the very beginning, just divide into mage/warrior before lv20, and have mage/healer/rogue/knight before lv 40. After that, almost every race have its own specialized mage/healer/rogue/ranger/knight.
    3): Open map, with so-called Raid elites in every small region, then with the update of versions, have simple dungeons and massive raids which have hundreds of people participated in.
    4): No food/drink system as WOW, things you can acquire to replenish HP and  MP is kinds of potions, similar to diablo II and MU Online.

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Member RarePosts: 1,614
    was thinking today, i remember back in the days in AC at one point the best armor in game was Nexus armor and there was literally ONE set per server. so out of everybody on your server only 1 person had it.

    could you imagine that today? could you imagine the crying and end of the world thats not fair that would happen today? those games back then just had a different breed of gamer.

    I see alot of talk about grouping with others and its true, in the older games there was alot more of that. i noticed right away when i tried wow, people where not there to group with, they were in my way! when there was 20 people killing the 5 scorpions because we need tails that wasnt promoting group play. that was promoting anger towards my fellow player. because everybody is trying to tag the mob at fast as possible to get the kill.
    AlBQuirky
Sign In or Register to comment.