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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    If you raid for raid gear are you raiding for the next tier level gear ?  if so where did the first level raid gear come from ?

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,408
     I hate JELLO ...
    Even with copious amounts of whipped cream?
    blueturtle13

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    AlBQuirky said:
     I hate JELLO ...
    Even with copious amounts of whipped cream?
    Real men dont eat whipped cream..
    AlBQuirkyblueturtle13Scot
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    "Maelstrom may have been the hardest PVE content I’ve ever done. I was one of the first 75 to clear it.  It took two weeks, 4 hours maybe 6 a day and 1000’s of lives lost."

    i agree Maelstorm was hard, i couldnt get past level 7 :)  but it was easier to do with top tier crafter gear and weapons and spell weaving exploit ;)




  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,797
    Are you guys arguing for alternate but equal progression paths starting to feel like you're talking to a brick wall yet?  Ya....I've been having these arguments since Everquest.

    Here's the thing:  The people who think of themselves as "hardcore raiders" will never agree to any other form of high end progression.  Ever.

    Why?  Let me try to make this as clear as I can.

    1.  For the raider types, the joy they get from the game does not come from playing, it comes from having high end loot.  

    2.  In order to enjoy having the high end loot they need to know that other people don't have it.  The more who don't have it the happier the e-peen raider is.

    3.  Because they play only for e-peen and not to enjoy the content----they actually want the high end content to be as unenjoyable as possible because this discourages other people from doing it which makes the rewards more exclusive, which increases the e-peen value of said rewards and that is all they care about.

    4.  Any "alternate progression path" is a threat to the exclusivity of their high end e-peen loot and as such will be attacked and ridiculed no matter how sensible and intelligently thought out it is.  This goes back to point number 2.  It doesn't matter if the rewards are different.  If the alternate progression satisfied other people with their own form of high end advancement it would devastate the e-peen raider because he needs for other people to be unhappy in order to feel happy himself.

    This is the reality guys.  You can't have a reasonable discussion with those people.  Just give up on it.
    gunklackerVermillion_RaventhalacidbloodShaighAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    Tell me what are the requirements for a MMORPG?


    Well, a Massively Multiplayer game which is Online would be a good start, yes? Even the massively part can be different for different players. Generally, though, the capability to have 100's or 1000's of players simultaneously online is a good start.

    The RPG portion can get a little tricky, though. One basic fundamental of roleplaying games is progression. Another basic tenet for me is playing the role of someone else, not "AlBQuirky in another land." This is why I refuse to call MMOs with action combat, where MY twitch skills count, not my characters actual skills, an RPG. Action adventure? That fits here. Others will disagree :)

    As to raid gear, the topic, it's neither here nor there. Yet you said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.

    Basically, MMORPG defines a genre, just like puzzle games and platformers do. If you call a game an MMORPG, players expect certain features in the game. That expectation is the whole purpose of genres.

    MMO is an umbrella term which then separates into RPG, FPS, ARPG, and so on. Would you also say, "There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as Autobiographical books go?"

    When does an MMORPG stop being an MMORPG?

    Which why I say there is no wrong genre because the setting can demand anything.  I see nothing in what you say that a MMORPG must have raiding. Imply that not wanting the best gear being locked behind raids.  

    It is always easy to say someone should play something else.  Like saying you want pure roleplaying you should play PnP.  Maybe dice rolling is too twitchy though.  

    MMORPG to me is about the role you play in the world with other players.  It is hybrid of RPG and online gaming.  Doesn't have to be quite like a typical single player.  But people are very dogmatic in their ideals.  
    SteelhelmAlBQuirkyLimnic
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    Are you guys arguing for alternate but equal progression paths starting to feel like you're talking to a brick wall yet?  Ya....I've been having these arguments since Everquest.

    Here's the thing:  The people who think of themselves as "hardcore raiders" will never agree to any other form of high end progression.  Ever.

    Why?  Let me try to make this as clear as I can.

    1.  For the raider types, the joy they get from the game does not come from playing, it comes from having high end loot.  

    2.  In order to enjoy having the high end loot they need to know that other people don't have it.  The more who don't have it the happier the e-peen raider is.

    3.  Because they play only for e-peen and not to enjoy the content----they actually want the high end content to be as unenjoyable as possible because this discourages other people from doing it which makes the rewards more exclusive, which increases the e-peen value of said rewards and that is all they care about.

    4.  Any "alternate progression path" is a threat to the exclusivity of their high end e-peen loot and as such will be attacked and ridiculed no matter how sensible and intelligently thought out it is.  This goes back to point number 2.  It doesn't matter if the rewards are different.  If the alternate progression satisfied other people with their own form of high end advancement it would devastate the e-peen raider because he needs for other people to be unhappy in order to feel happy himself.

    This is the reality guys.  You can't have a reasonable discussion with those people.  Just give up on it.
    You forgot people are more traditional and dogmatic than they are willing to believe.  

    "You want to put ranch dressing on a burger. Just eat a salad and leave my burgers alone!"
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,483
    I'm curious to know where this info came from that only a small percentage of players used to raid in the past? According to Ghostcrawler (the wise guy who implemented LFR), it wasn't that a low number of people were participating in raids, it was the fact that a low percentage of players could clear raid content. Even then, people were still garbage, so thunderforging/warforging came into the game around mop (again you can thank ghostcrawler for that) to help push clears because wow raids/dungeons were simply 'too difficult' for the average player. I mean the guy has a whole write up somewhere (I think preach went over this around last year when talking about the existence of warforging/titanforging), so he might know what he's talking about since he's the reason people hated him for so long.
    Scot
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,007
    Albatroes said:
    I'm curious to know where this info came from that only a small percentage of players used to raid in the past? According to Ghostcrawler (the wise guy who implemented LFR), it wasn't that a low number of people were participating in raids, it was the fact that a low percentage of players could clear raid content. Even then, people were still garbage, so thunderforging/warforging came into the game around mop (again you can thank ghostcrawler for that) to help push clears because wow raids/dungeons were simply 'too difficult' for the average player. I mean the guy has a whole write up somewhere (I think preach went over this around last year when talking about the existence of warforging/titanforging), so he might know what he's talking about since he's the reason people hated him for so long.
    The 1% number comes from ghostcrawler and it was related to the people that took part in a single naxxramas and sunwell raids. 

    The number that actually took part in raids were quite high due to the low requirements of doing entry level raids like zul'gurub and kharazan. 

    The idea of having to be elitist to do raiding has always been a ludicrous idea, it was only true for groups that did serious progression in naxx and sunwell.
    Scot
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    edited June 8
    we have Jello, whipped cream, burgers, fri's, Ranch dressing, salads, I am not sure where this is going anymore. and wheres the Pizza ?

    SteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,408
    edited June 8
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    Tell me what are the requirements for a MMORPG?


    Well, a Massively Multiplayer game which is Online would be a good start, yes? Even the massively part can be different for different players. Generally, though, the capability to have 100's or 1000's of players simultaneously online is a good start.

    The RPG portion can get a little tricky, though. One basic fundamental of roleplaying games is progression. Another basic tenet for me is playing the role of someone else, not "AlBQuirky in another land." This is why I refuse to call MMOs with action combat, where MY twitch skills count, not my characters actual skills, an RPG. Action adventure? That fits here. Others will disagree :)

    As to raid gear, the topic, it's neither here nor there. Yet you said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.

    Basically, MMORPG defines a genre, just like puzzle games and platformers do. If you call a game an MMORPG, players expect certain features in the game. That expectation is the whole purpose of genres.

    MMO is an umbrella term which then separates into RPG, FPS, ARPG, and so on. Would you also say, "There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as Autobiographical books go?"

    When does an MMORPG stop being an MMORPG?

    Which why I say there is no wrong genre because the setting can demand anything.  I see nothing in what you say that a MMORPG must have raiding. Imply that not wanting the best gear being locked behind raids.  

    It is always easy to say someone should play something else.  Like saying you want pure roleplaying you should play PnP.  Maybe dice rolling is too twitchy though.  

    MMORPG to me is about the role you play in the world with other players.  It is hybrid of RPG and online gaming.  Doesn't have to be quite like a typical single player.  But people are very dogmatic in their ideals.  
    Watch your "absolutes", then. "NO WRONG GENRE" is an absolute statement. If there is ONE thing to be expected from that genre, then it is not absolute, as you claimed. Your last paragraph lists 2 requirements for your own expectations.

    My "complaint" was your use of an absolute statement.

    PS Forgot to clarify, I'm not really against your idea. I just wonder why all these different activities need their own "best gear" in the first place.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,743
    edited June 8
    My post is too long apparently.


    If there is a sufficient differentiation between rewards I agree with you, I just don't see that happening, what would be the best PvE gear and perhaps more importantly what would be the best PvP gear? Really PVP and PvE should be kept separate but they often are not. If you can get gear comparable to raid gear in any solo way, raid will die. But then players who don't like to group do seem to want that.


    Limnic said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you're including churned out titles, there's not many MMO's in general.

    Even as much of a dull grind the core progression track of Black Desert is, people forget that game has a rather broad housing, crafting, and community/economy systems that offer alternative play tracks for example.

    I do not see this same "majority" you are making such clams about, unless again you are trying to include the cheap churn titles. The problem is that these alternative tracks are neglected, which is the crux of so much of this conversation. They are there, but when they are ignored for the sake of making raids and mini-raids into the only endgame track, then all those other components no longer have sufficient meaning to players and they will begin to leave until it's only the small community of diehards with their endgame niche left.

    And I do not mistake anything here. Your own comments shows how you continue to ignore things. Either by a willful choice of refusing the logic, or by simply not being able to understand something that's been bluntly stated.

    Point in case. Raids have not been able to retain players. The MMOs that have focused raids as their only end-game content have all bled users. Many titles that have tried to encapsulate the raid experience by itself have similarly floundered out by virtue of never having enough users to sustain them.

    This is again an example of where you are ignoring things. Because you make a statement that in order to be made, has to assume that giving greater depth to other elements of the game to offer other choices for play in end-game somehow is to the detriment of raids. Like that solo questing comment of yours.

    Why do you think solo questing would be to the detriment of raids? Because your path of least resistance argument, that ignores that a single player focused experience can retain a high challenge ceiling?

    Which is ironic since the solution is something you touch upon following in your comment on crafting, yet you forget it again right after when you try your path of least resistance argument again. You assume that solo questing would be fundamentally less time or effort intensive than raids, which is a false assumption by itself, and then stack that with the blatant act of ignoring the thing that's been brought up multiple times, that different types of end game progression can have different reward tracks that benefit those specific tracks. IE, solo quest chains offers gear that is tailored to progressing through the next stage of the chain, and raid rewards are more unique to gearing for specific elements of the raids (like unique abilities or counters to specific elements present in the raid used as a way to unlock the path to the next raid tier).

    So I can see that you are ignoring things. Quite brazenly even.
    Whether you are doing it consciously or not is the only unknown.

    Limnic I agreed with your first two paragraphs and some subsequent ideas but you do seem to have a problem that when people somehow don’t agree with you; it is because they don’t see the problem, don’t get the issue or don’t see the logic. The idea that the state of my mind is the only unknown here verges on the fascicle. You need to realise that caricaturing my position does you no favours.

    I was including all MMOs when I said the majority,  most are cheap turn titles.

    You are right raids have not been able to retain players, but what I said was they are about the only thing retaining players, nothing MMORPG’s have done to retain players has worked in the modern MMO era. Back when MMOs began raiding did a much better job of retaining players, but in these days of butterflies nothing works. The fact that raid only MMOs don’t do well (what games are you thinking of here?) does not surprise me, I would never advocate raids as a stand alone.

    I don't see all these alterative tracks you talk of. What seems to be on the table is a few good ideas hardly any of which we have seen implemented, primarily making solo questing as good as raids for top level gear. Now if this pans out like Vermillion says above I can see some attraction, but when it comes to MMO gaming rewards you must never "cross the streams".


    In other words rewards for different types of game play must have different rewards, or players will pick the easiest way to obtain them and leave harder game play alone. Just one example of this in SWTOR they had a battlezone like area where players could meet and do PvP for PvP rewards. It was quite popular until they bought in instanced scenarios, the battle area died out very quickly. That’s why raid rewards need to be better than anything else, but they need not be better in all areas, just sufficient to set them apart from other top level game play. Now you mention the idea that solo gear is for just for soloing and would not be usable for raids, if it was also no good for PvP that’s going in the right direction. But a small group top level event should give better rewards than solo and the raid group should give the best in overall terms. Why? Because it is more difficult, handling groups always is, your idea of just making these solo quests very difficult just does not cut it when compared to the planning and coordination of a group in a raid.

    I think what you are doing is seeing MMOs have a problem with top level and then you blame it all on raids. Well there are a lot of MMOs without raids out there, how are they doing? 

    There is no irony in the fact I gave a solution with the crafting quests, what that means is I see the problem; it does not as you amazingly deuce that I do not see the problem, topsy-turvy logic! But I do see issues where you do not, don’t cross the streams and maybe top level questing would work, but do we have any real examples of it doing so. ESO was mentioned, how do those top level quests fit in?

    The problem at the heart of your top level soloing ideas, is that more solo questing is unlikely to retain players as that’s what they did to get to that point. More of the same won’t do, indeed most leave way before then, questing not being good enough to hold on to them. Dailies are an example (a loose one) of top level questing, I don’t mind them but I don’t see them as being good enough to keep people playing. This is where what has said about challenges at all levels may help, it need not necessarily be tougher questing, but something other than straight  quests may be needed, that’s why the crafting idea might add some vim.

     25 Agrees

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,743
    edited June 8
    Sorry after doing that post no time to talk about the real burning issue in this thread, jello and cream. :)
    AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Unfortunately while you're capable of long posts, you aren't capable of breaking away from repeating the same mistakes you keep making.

    I don't care if you agree with me, I care about how you keep taking a portion of information, then suddenly changing and redefining things in a manner that is not said in order to spit out lines of thought that fail to connect any dots.

    Every time you do examples it highlights this. Like your SWTOR example. You make a comment about it's PvP and battlezone for PvP rewards, but fail to connect the points that the example you are using is of a system supplanting the previous one instead of being alternate to.

    That is a terrible example as a consequence because it fails to relate to the subject. You have to assume that raid rewards have to better out of some false assumption about the nature of the gear for these rewards leaning into the BiS problem and then consequently being sought only for path of least resistance.

    And that immediately shows exactly how you keep ignoring things. Because we can go right back to literally the first post in the thread, as was mentioned multiple times, to observe the suggestion that each respective activity have rewards that relate to that track instead of there being an outright BiS. IE, raid gear would be best for raiding while quest gear would be best for progression of quest tracks, etc.

    This is again exemplified by your crafting commentary, and yes indeed the irony exists in there when you can acknowledge the idea that crafting rewards could have bonuses and perks that are unique to them and benefits it directly without supplanting anything you'd get from another progression track because the perk is applicable to that specific track.

    In other words, it is exactly representative of how you don't see the problem in your argument, because you can perceive the issue in one situation, then suddenly lose sight of it the moment you observe any other part that exists within the same scope.

    The problem with your argument against top level soloing, is that consuming new narrative content and quest chains is one of the few recurring elements that actually brings back players. Major expansions and story content updates have driven purchases and players seeking to resub to the likes of WoW, SWtoR, LotRO, etc. The addition of new unique classes, zones to explore, all that breadth of content to consume.

    And then when they consume it, and all that's left is "raids", they leave again because they stopped being catered to again. Because raids are not what most players are interested in, and no matter how much you suggest tweaking them about, they will not affect the broad scope of player retention that does not give a damn about them. In other words, progression in end game tracks outside raids really in the first place is the only thing you have for expanding player retention.

    Don't go making up straw men to suit your needs. The problem was put forth for you already multiple times. The fact that there's not much to do other than raid and endgame is a symptom, not once have I blamed raids specifically for anything. I do believe I have actually TOLD YOU MULTIPLE TIMES the issue as I perceive it is that the scope of most MMOs tends to get neglected and consequently only a narrow band of viable continued gameplay is left at "end-game" for people to continue with. If the different activities and elements of the game that players had enjoyed up to the point of capping out their experience in that track suddenly dries, up, they no longer have reason to stay in the game. Hence, when all that's left for players that want other activities to do is raid, then they have no reason to stay in the game.

    Indeed, more of the same won't do. That's why raids are so terrible. Because they are fundamentally more of the same, and in such a narrow band that almost no one cares for it.

    To which given your question about MMOs focused on raids and your end claim about how few have raids, I have to counter with the question of what MMOs you're thinking of, as I cannot honestly recall a single MMO since the early 2000s that didn't lazily lean on that crutch. I would literally be going down almost the entire list of games on this site.

    Topsy turvy logic indeed. If you cannot follow any of this, can you at least restate clearly what your perceived problem is by itself to be addressed, since as of right now it seems mostly you cling to the path of least resistance argument without ever addressing the repeated point of "collecting gear for one track in the game does not equate to having the best gear for another track", meaning raiding remains relevant to raiders just as much as ever, but other players would also have a more meaningful track for their own user experience.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,826
    There is an obvious solution that FFXI figured out years ago.  

    Make your top-tier items crafted recipes where the drops required come from raids.  

    This provides options for obtaining said gear, all of which are equally rigorous, albeit in different ways.

    Personally I think no gear should EVER drop directly from enemies.  They should always drop materials that you can use to either craft the gear, have someone craft it for you, or you sell the item to buy something else instead.  Much more flexible system.
    Limnic
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    There is an obvious solution that FFXI figured out years ago.  

    Make your top-tier items crafted recipes where the drops required come from raids.  

    This provides options for obtaining said gear, all of which are equally rigorous, albeit in different ways.

    Personally I think no gear should EVER drop directly from enemies.  They should always drop materials that you can use to either craft the gear, have someone craft it for you, or you sell the item to buy something else instead.  Much more flexible system.
    That was actually suggested previously, and is a concept I'm personally somewhat fond of as it brings raids back from it's weird isolation towards other more community focused elements of a game and returns relevance to otherwise neglected parts of a game such as the crafting system.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    If there is a sufficient differentiation between rewards I agree with you, I just don't see that happening, what would be the best PvE gear and perhaps more importantly what would be the best PvP gear? Really PVP and PvE should be kept separate but they often are not. If you can get gear comparable to raid gear in any solo way, raid will die. But then players who don't like to group do seem to want that.
    If raiding will die from lack of best rewards than maybe there is something wrong the whole thing. Every other aspect of the game is supposed to make it on it's own merit.  At least it is honest.

    I am not sure how much of a savior raiding is to grouping.  It is small repetitive bit content.  I think having a lot more long CoOp quest would be helpful.  Maybe a long quest instances that is broken into check points. 

    Right now I can only dabble in themeparks.  Quest are generally boring making progression boring. End game raids and dailies are boring and annoying.  I have a hard time getting my son or friends to play them.  Sad shjt for real.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,743
    Limnic said:
    Unfortunately while you're capable of long posts, you aren't capable of breaking away from repeating the same mistakes you keep making.

    I don't care if you agree with me, I care about how you keep taking a portion of information, then suddenly changing and redefining things in a manner that is not said in order to spit out lines of thought that fail to connect any dots.

    Every time you do examples it highlights this. Like your SWTOR example. You make a comment about it's PvP and battlezone for PvP rewards, but fail to connect the points that the example you are using is of a system supplanting the previous one instead of being alternate to.

    That is a terrible example as a consequence because it fails to relate to the subject. You have to assume that raid rewards have to better out of some false assumption about the nature of the gear for these rewards leaning into the BiS problem and then consequently being sought only for path of least resistance.

    And that immediately shows exactly how you keep ignoring things. Because we can go right back to literally the first post in the thread, as was mentioned multiple times, to observe the suggestion that each respective activity have rewards that relate to that track instead of there being an outright BiS. IE, raid gear would be best for raiding while quest gear would be best for progression of quest tracks, etc.

    This is again exemplified by your crafting commentary, and yes indeed the irony exists in there when you can acknowledge the idea that crafting rewards could have bonuses and perks that are unique to them and benefits it directly without supplanting anything you'd get from another progression track because the perk is applicable to that specific track.

    In other words, it is exactly representative of how you don't see the problem in your argument, because you can perceive the issue in one situation, then suddenly lose sight of it the moment you observe any other part that exists within the same scope.

    The problem with your argument against top level soloing, is that consuming new narrative content and quest chains is one of the few recurring elements that actually brings back players. Major expansions and story content updates have driven purchases and players seeking to resub to the likes of WoW, SWtoR, LotRO, etc. The addition of new unique classes, zones to explore, all that breadth of content to consume.

    And then when they consume it, and all that's left is "raids", they leave again because they stopped being catered to again. Because raids are not what most players are interested in, and no matter how much you suggest tweaking them about, they will not affect the broad scope of player retention that does not give a damn about them. In other words, progression in end game tracks outside raids really in the first place is the only thing you have for expanding player retention.

    Don't go making up straw men to suit your needs. The problem was put forth for you already multiple times. The fact that there's not much to do other than raid and endgame is a symptom, not once have I blamed raids specifically for anything. I do believe I have actually TOLD YOU MULTIPLE TIMES the issue as I perceive it is that the scope of most MMOs tends to get neglected and consequently only a narrow band of viable continued gameplay is left at "end-game" for people to continue with. If the different activities and elements of the game that players had enjoyed up to the point of capping out their experience in that track suddenly dries, up, they no longer have reason to stay in the game. Hence, when all that's left for players that want other activities to do is raid, then they have no reason to stay in the game.

    Indeed, more of the same won't do. That's why raids are so terrible. Because they are fundamentally more of the same, and in such a narrow band that almost no one cares for it.

    To which given your question about MMOs focused on raids and your end claim about how few have raids, I have to counter with the question of what MMOs you're thinking of, as I cannot honestly recall a single MMO since the early 2000s that didn't lazily lean on that crutch. I would literally be going down almost the entire list of games on this site.

    Topsy turvy logic indeed. If you cannot follow any of this, can you at least restate clearly what your perceived problem is by itself to be addressed, since as of right now it seems mostly you cling to the path of least resistance argument without ever addressing the repeated point of "collecting gear for one track in the game does not equate to having the best gear for another track", meaning raiding remains relevant to raiders just as much as ever, but other players would also have a more meaningful track for their own user experience.
    To some up my concerns in a nutshell we have been here before many times. And what seemed to be a genuine look for new ideas at top level, turned out to be 'lets scrap raids'. It has often come before from those who do not like grouping and like the idea of achieving everything for as little effort as possible. Now that may not be you but once again the ideas start to push in that direction. Maybe you could track different lines of gear, but the fact you see no potential issues with raiding with your unproven system strikes me as ill thought out. Unless players such as yourself can point to where their alternatives have been shown to work lets stick to what we know works, raids. That's why I asked about those top level solo quests in ESO, lets see something no matter how loosely it is based on what you said and how well is it doing.

    Allow me to have the luxury of a second paragraph just to say you are rather good at long posts yourself. :)

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    So your first concern is artificial, since scrapping raids has not been the suggestion in this thread outside of perhaps one-offs from a couple people, and not from anyone trying to actively converse including Ver.

    Also have some dispute with your community jab, as we can argue the case that raiding as it tends to exist is not conducive to social gaming, since it's highly structured and often stressful content for those involved, and when it is all instanced and nothing players involved in raids does is able to bleed out to affect the broader community, it instead creates a division between the niche of raiders versus the rest of the player base. Ironically, the crux of where much of the gripes about elitism or ill perceptions of people wanting other elements of the game to be relevant, because it's a clique at war with it's own game's community.

    Which is to point that from outside that clique, the perception is that things that add relevance to other aspects of the game serves to broaden the community interaction within it. The antithetical claim to what you've made. This antithetical also has some logical merit in my opinion, as you have to consider, if a system does not actively touch other systems within a game, it cannot further social goals beyond itself. Crafting, world events, even simple exploration has more social components than being squirreled away in an instanced environment collecting loot you can't or won't share. Hell, you could even include elements in the single player quest track that was brought up which could see the player turning to some other part of the community temporarily to solve that part of the quest.

    As long as something like raiding exists in a isolated microcosm, it is not a social hub for the game. It's at best a clique.

    And ESO actually has demonstration some close viability regarding what's been discussed actually. Their zone item sets and bonuses have comparative value and some sets like the Night Mother's is used alongside dungeon and vet/trial gear. This includes too how crafted sets are also often components of player builds for even endgame. It's an active example already of how collecting gear from different tracks in the game. It's not an unproven system as you claim.

    The only unique value there was extending the distinction between gear obtained from different parts of the game so that they have more uniquely defined use-cases applicable to those specific segments of the game world. A suggestion made specifically to emphasize the creation of value in doing things like running raids specifically for ranking raid gear up, as that'd be the best way to prepare yourself for increased tiers within that portion of the game. Meanwhile, doing zone exploration and quest activities or what not would unlock gear that would grant specific unique bonuses/traits to benefit progression into new parts of the zone or next stage of a quest chain.

    This was explained to you previously, yet again making me bring up the point of you having been ignoring things this whole time. As adamantly as you want to claim otherwise, it seems likely to be a form of confirmation bias given blindness to things that would sit outside your interpretation of it all.
    Post edited by Limnic on
    Ungood
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    Scot said:

    To some up my concerns in a nutshell we have been here before many times. And what seemed to be a genuine look for new ideas at top level, turned out to be 'lets scrap raids'. It has often come before from those who do not like grouping and like the idea of achieving everything for as little effort as possible. Now that may not be you but once again the ideas start to push in that direction. Maybe you could track different lines of gear, but the fact you see no potential issues with raiding with your unproven system strikes me as ill thought out. Unless players such as yourself can point to where their alternatives have been shown to work lets stick to what we know works, raids. That's why I asked about those top level solo quests in ESO, lets see something no matter how loosely it is based on what you said and how well is it doing.

    Allow me to have the luxury of a second paragraph just to say you are rather good at long posts yourself. :)
    Don't bother mate he just posts adversarially out of an over inflated sense of importance.
    He posts in logical circles to try and sound smarter and more insightful than he really is. Been doing it for a while now. We all laugh and message in private about him and and a couple others at their expense. Hey we all need the class windbags ;) 

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    Don't...
    Says gdemami 2.0, ironically enough.

    At least when the guy above told us we shouldn't bother debating with the raid-only crowd he gave an opinion relevant to the dialogue instead of a random personal attack.

    I don't attack your comments and I don't sit there randomly loling posts, though I have noticed you do have a passive aggressive tendency to do that given I can check my profile stats. Should we hop in there and tally up how often it's just you smashing that lol button for no reason?

    You really need to get over whatever this grudge is you're holding onto.
    Post edited by Limnic on
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,826
    Limnic said:
    Don't...
    Says gdemami 2.0, ironically enough.

    At least when the guy above told us we shouldn't bother debating with the raid-only crowd he gave an opinion relevant to the dialogue instead of a random personal attack.

    I don't attack your comments and I don't sit there randomly loling posts, though I have noticed you do have a passive aggressive tendency to do that given I can check my profile stats. Should we hop in there and tally up how often it's just you smashing that lol button for no reason?

    You really need to get over whatever this grudge is you're holding onto.
    People who can't put together more than a sentence in response aren't exactly the brightest people on the planet.  Any good explanation/defense of a topic will include plenty of detail/justification.  It sounds like pretty classic projection.  "I'm dumb as a sack of rocks so I'm going to insult the person presenting a well thought-out and explained argument because I can't be bothered to read anything longer than a meme or article headline".  
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,542
    edited June 8
    I think it boils down to this. If only a small percentage like to raid why is raiding the only thing to do so the end game? Why is raiding the only way to get good gear so the end game?

    Having the only means of progressing being the thing that most people don't want to do sounds weird to me.

    Only 1% may beat that hardest raid content but who cares about that if only 10% even want to try.
    LimnicKajidourdenVermillion_RaventhalSteelhelmacidbloodAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,826
    I think it boils down to this. If only a small percentage like to raid why is raiding the only thing to do so the end game? Why is raiding the only way to get good gear so the end game?

    Having the only means of progressing being the thing that most people don't want to do sounds weird to me.

    Only 1% may beat that hardest raid content but who cares about that if only 10% even want to try.
    Exactly, It's an old mindset that doesn't really make any sense.  Providing multiple paths of progression would be a sign of evolution for the genre.

    The attempted comparison to real life and "only the elite should get this" mentality is a hard fallacy considering we're talking about a video game which is inherently about having fun/enjoyment.

    Also, I don't think anyone would want to be just outright given these things for no effort, but there is a desire to do something new/different instead of the same old thing we've been doing since the late 80's.
    Limnic
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    edited June 8
    I think it boils down to this. If only a small percentage like to raid why is raiding the only thing to do so the end game? Why is raiding the only way to get good gear so the end game?

    Having the only means of progressing being the thing that most people don't want to do sounds weird to me.

    Only 1% may beat that hardest raid content but who cares about that if only 10% even want to try.
    Another issue is that raiding has not really progressed since it was created. The idea that 'The Game You Are Playing" Has now reached Part 2  was always a weird thing for me personally. The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    acidbloodAlBQuirkyWargfoot

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