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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Amathe said:

    Kind of the point that you could get the best solo gear for doing solo content.  You can get the best crafters and materials to work together to make legendary items.  You get 20 people to gather to raid and get the best armor that works in groups.  You could be explorer gets the best gear for travel.  
    You could get the best gear for catching a butterfly with a net. You could get the best gear for balancing a ball on your nose. Or maybe get the best gear for cleaning your plate, even the lima beans. The possibilities are nearly endless!
    Lol but of course in your humble opinion your opinion is right.  
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited June 7
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    The bottom line for me here is that MMORPG's which were all about grouping are now all about soloing. The one bastion of good group content that remains is raids. So removing that is an anathema to me. It is not as if you don't craft or quest before top level so they are not good enough as a replacement, indeed anything not group based is not good enough. I think you mentioned a small group option, or another poster did, I am all for that as long as it does not fully replace full raids. It might be the prelude to raiding, getting those who have soloed their entire time to top level "Raid ready".

    Go forth and raid young man!. :) 
    Ya know.. I may champion for casuals, but, I am an old school MMO player, who raided like a mutherfukka as far back as EQ, and I kept on raiding all the while forward, hell, I plan to raid tonight (hopefully my Pug won't suck, but that is the risk I am willing to take)

    Let me tell you something, Raids never were the best group content.

    I shit you not when I say, with my static back in EQ, we used to walk around Sol B, at level, not camp one little fucking room, with some shitty ass single spawn, while being 10 levels above the zone, No.. at level, we used to walk around Zones, and just kill everything in our path.. just the 3 of us... and that shit was epic fun, raids did not even come close to that kind of just pure joy of playing. That was the stuff we had been doing since Paw, just walk in and cut a path as we went, all the way through Kunark, and up to Velious, just stomped our way through dungeons walking in one door and leaving a trail of dead bodies all the way around till the exit (for those that remember, Kunark had a seperate entrance/exit) we loved that kind of stuff, just exploring the dungeon, and being total murder hobo's.

    Now to be fair, we would allow anyone to join us, and I mean anyone, if someone said Looking for a group, and they were, roughly, in our level range, we would invite them, if they could keep up, great, if they shat themselves, even better (We had quite a few people quit our group, citing that we were too extreme for them) because we were not easy on the nerves to put up with, like the kind of psychos that would crack jokes while facing 10 mobs, at level. Anyway, we got a minor bit of rep because we invited and took in some people from a few top end raid guilds, and lo, we got invited from a few top end raid guilds, because they had never seen anyone do, what we did.

    But to us, that was just the way the game was meant to be played.

    We also were not hardcore, none of us was level capped, none of us had the "BiS" gear, (well we had some BiS gear, as a byproduct of stomping through dungeons and catching a rare spawn here and there) but overall, we had "good" gear. 

    Raids were soggy boring shit to me, in comparison to how we used to play and how dynamic and fun our encounters were out in the open world and doing dungeons.

    So, really, if you think Raids are some "Everest" of great group content, either you need a better static that can make the rest of the game fun, or maybe you need to stop trying to play the way everyone tells you to play, and blaze your own trail for a bit, trust me, when you play the way that is fun.. it's a lot more enjoyable to experience the game than just doing some rotation on que like a trained dancing monkey.

    But.. I guess if that is what you enjoy.. enjoy it..I enjoy my raids as well, but, don't tell me you deserve a better trophy than I do, when I just stomped through a dungeon designed to be a challenge for 5 people, with only 3.

    Trust me, what you did wasn't any more a challenge than what I did, because.. oh right.. I'm plan to do a raid tonight.
    AlBQuirky
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,462
    AlBQuirky said:
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    I don't agree that "every group" figures out anything. The first raid group to defeat a boss figures it out. Maybe the next 2 or 3 groups, too. The rest just copy what worked. It doesn't always go smoothly, and many fail until they get coordinated enough. Where is effort here, other than working together better? It would be nice if there was other "hard PvE content" that non-raiders could enjoy. They don't need top end raid gear, like you pointed out, but nice gear of their own would be nice, don't you think?

    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    Depends upon how secretive the successful raiders are.  Back in everquest 1, raid tactics were a closely guarded secret and sometimes it took ages for the top raid targets to have anything really useful on the websites written about them.
    AmathebcbullyAlBQuirkyMendel
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Bad design results in millions of monthly revenue, for years. Spin off after spin off of said design go figure. Some people......need to stop thinking they know everything. 

    Vermillion_Raventhal said:

    Everquest was basically the only game with hardcore grouping.  Combat grouping is not the only way to make a social MMORPG.  It certainly is the most annoying way though.

    No, but when the fantasy world is revolved around a story of people being heroes slaying beasts, taking down iconic villians......then its the most common route.
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 119
    AlBQuirky said:


    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    There is, games like WoW offer world quests, which rewards are based on current ilvl and offfer upgrades. There not top tier gear, but with said gear you mow down mobs. Isnt that why they want gear anyway? To destroy mobs? Theres ample ways to obtain that gear, the only thing it isnt good enough for, is go figure, raiding.
    AlBQuirky
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,775
    edited June 7
    Maelstrom Arena! 

    Why has no one else (including myself) brought it up?!

    For those who don’t know ESO introduced a solo raid like encounter. You fought around 10 bosses each with 3 or so different phases. You had 100 lives I believe, and when completed, you’d be scored on lives remaining and how fast you cleared.

    Maelstrom may have been the hardest PVE content I’ve ever done. I was one of the first 75 to clear it.  It took two weeks, 4 hours maybe 6 a day and 1000’s of lives lost. 

    Several times I reached the point of thinking to myself “maybe you’re just not good enough”. I had no one to blame or lean on. It was just me, my skill, and knowledge of builds. 

    In short if people wanted to solo content like this for the “best gear” I’d be perfectly fine.

    You know what though? 95% of you people asking for challenging solo content that gives the best gear WOULD NOT do Maelstrom Arena more than once or twice.  You’d look at yourself and say “maybe I don’t deserve the best gear”.

    Hmmm maybe that’s why it wasn’t mentioned... not enough people did it...

    edit- a truly terrifying place for those of us who think we’re great. I wouldn’t go back. Nah, y’all don’t want that smoke.
    IselinAlBQuirky
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    UngoodVermillion_RaventhalIselinAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,753
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    AmatheOGDeathRowAlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

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  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,775
    Limnic said:
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,906
    bcbully said:
    Limnic said:
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    The unique weapon rewards of the veteran difficulty version of MA are also still BIS for a lot of builds in dungeons, raids and even PvP... if RNG is good to you that is :)

    But my point in a post I made above still stands and is what I believe @Limnic is also getting at: these instanced things that MMOs do to up the difficulty shouldn't be the most difficult content they have. Those top tier things should be part of the normal open world overland content.

    I mentioned Rift as an example and @Kyleran provided a few others. Those community-wide events are what sets MMOs apart from other genres and what they should be leveraging to make them stand-out from the kind of content anyone can do in MMO-lites.
    LimnicAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ferdiaferdia Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 7
    bcbully said:
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    As @Iselin stated my point was that the content should not be so narrowly applied.

    The most challenging elements of a game really should not be isolated to little pockets of a finite type, as they simply do not need to be. You can create high-tier challenges for a broad variety of gaming, including even crafting.

    The problem in this regard is how most games simply don't have that. The only end-game challenge ends up only catering to a single style of play, and things like WoW's scaled queues and even the Maelstrom Arena runs into issue with is that it's all "the same thing", just scaled a bit back and forth.

    More components of the game and more styles of play and user experiences should be offered such depth. And that's where examples from Iselin and Kyleran come in.

    Then there are other facets like what @Vermillion_Raventhal has been trying to get across (or at least as I have understood it), that individual activities can have more task-driven rewards. IE, raiding gear caters expressly to furthering the raiding experience and other systems have similarly uinqie gear to further their own respective experience.

    We do have a bit of that, but it tends to cut itself short as PvE vs PvP gear rather than having any greater granularity catering to more unique styles of play therein, instead often falling into the strict sense of BiS and FotM where BiS could instead mean "This set is best for exploring this zone." or "This set is best for hunting/trapping for people trying to material farm."

    Stuff like that does happen and has happened before, but even when it does/has it is often neglected and falls by the wayside as further content additions renders it all irrelevant again. And not in the "we added another tier to it" way, but the "well this one set is better at doing almost everything" way.

    Ver's suggestion caters well to the idea of players being more specialized, having a strong leaning into specific play styles and roles that can exist as an interdependent community.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,753
    edited June 7
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 7
    Feel like @Vermillion_Raventhal may need to try and qualify his argument a little as it seems like there has been some degree of interpretation going on.

    Like @Scot seems to be taking it to mean replacing raids, which I did not personally interpret it as such.

    Flip side there being where Ver mentions he still thinks raiding should reward the best "raiding gear" as opposed to "BiS" gear.

    The idea seems to rest more on the idea that at endgame there is no singular "BiS" and that int instead is dependent on which part of the game you wanna focus on, Much as there is PvE and PvP gear, it'd be specific to activities like "if you raid alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids" instead of "if you quest alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids".

    Closest counterpoint to this subject I think I've seen would be the commentary about content like quests being easier to complete than a raid (and thus you don't need the raid gear), which kind of indicates another problem rather than actually being a/the solution.

    Point then cycling to what I and others have noted, more elements of the game should offer the same kind of depth and challenges. Gear that you obtain for that challenge could/would then further your ability to progress along that content as the "BiS" for that activity.

    At no point does that undermine the value of raids, and instead for the sake of people like Scot who are saying they want more group content, could open more types of group user experiences back up to being relevant and enjoyed by the userbase rather than neglected because the only meaningful rewards sits within such a finite scope of the content. 
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,936
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    Lol, it is not an assault on grouping. I always see people clutching their purses as soon as something different is suggested.  Not sure how suggesting changing reward method and challenge being harder for solo and small groups will making the MMORPG "easy."

    Grouping is dependent on game design not raiding which is a minority of the players and content for the most part.  
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    Actually quite the opposite.. it's about being able to put in the time.. in a manner I enjoy.
    acidblood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    I would say the main point here, is I don't see a problem with a Cake-Walk MMO, where the raiders can go play some other game if they need challenge or whatever.

    Personally, I think Raiders ruined GW2, which is a great example of a Cake-Walk MMO, done right, up till HoT. And then all these cry babies whined and complained about needing challenge and all that bullshit, so Anet gave them what they wanted, and this drove away the casuals, which in the end resulted in a massive loss of income, canceling all their other projects, and terminating half their staff to stay solvent.

    So yah.. some MMO's should tell raiders to go fuck off and find another game.

    I do not see any problem with that.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,946
    ferdia said:
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    Welcome to the forums! Not a bad first post, could use a touch of snarkiness, here, hold my beer and follow my lead...

    ;)

    UngoodScotSteelhelmAlBQuirky

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    ferdia said:
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    Hi, Welcome to the forums.

    ... ya know.. when I read posts like this.. I just know we are all not playing the same games.
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 851
    Bad design results in millions of monthly revenue, for years. Spin off after spin off of said design go figure. Some people......need to stop thinking they know everything.
    Or in spite of it... I can only speak for myself of course, but I quit Vanilla WoW when it became clear that the developers had no interest in releasing any substantial new content that wasn't the next raid (and I had run out of other things to do; literally, I even spent 2 months farming Rune Cloth so I could get an Epic Orgrimmar Wolf for my Forsaken Mage... those were the days).

    I came back for TBC and stayed a while due to heroic dungeons and epic crafting but once again quit when raiding became the only thing left to do. I was talked into getting WotLK, got to cap and did a few things, but sure enough the pattern repeated, and at this point I was done, for good.

    The next MMO I really sank time into was FFXIV ARR, which I enjoyed quite a lot... until they seemed to only be releasing new raids :facepalm: 'here we go again' I thought, and un-subbed. Fast forward a few years and I'm back playing FFXIV, not for the raiding though (or any of the 'gear grinds' really), instead I play for the world, the story, the gameplay, any long-term progression, and the people I know and meet in-game.

    Now of course I know that grinds do keep people around and playing, and that challenging raids attract a certain hardcore audience that can add a lot to the game, but when the focus of a game is (or becomes) raiding, raiding, and nothing but raiding, it makes the rest of the game (which is where the majority of the player base hangs out*) very stale.

    * Even for the most prolific Japanese (JP) FFXIV raiding servers’ Savage Raid clear rates are estimated to only be about 25%. This quickly drops to around 10% (or less) for the top NA and EU servers, and for most JP servers. The vast majority of NA and EU servers (which are also the most populated) have estimated clear rates of less than 5%.
    UngoodVermillion_Raventhal
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,098
    AAAMEOW said:
    well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol.  No shit they should get the best gear in the game.

    That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP.  Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid.  OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog.  Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
    i see you dont play much games


    the main reason raids have the best gear is simple if not no one would do the raids, save for the try hard raiders who love to work like a bot
    Ya, I don't play much game.  I'm an addicted gamer but I play one game at a time.  

    That being said, I'm trying very hard to find games which raid lock gear(by reading online).  But having a hard time find any beside wow.  I think most developers do agree with the OP.  Not to mention most studio probably didn't invest as much time developing their raid content.  

    So which mmorpg raid lock best pve gear beside wow?
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    Ya, im done here too. Alot of these posts are just plain retarded. The original question was should gear be locked, yes. Thats it.  Those stats on said gear are needed to push content, not kill mobs. Don't like it? Don't play it? I know I don't play games I dont enjoy. Know what I don't do? Run to a forum to knock a fair system. If you don't think its fair, your entitled. All these games offer accesible gear thats far more powerful then you need as a non raider.

    These nay sayers are scorned for some reason. Its a shame, that they cant just be happy for others. Most games dont require you to raid at all, and have a plethora of activities to keep people logging in. Since WOW is forever brought up, crafting is important in WOW (I know cause that was my gold income for years) cause it enables gearing alts easy or selling said gear for gold or to make pets/mounts/toys, to maybe even buy raid runs, pet collection, achievement hunting, fashion shows.......the list goes on. Many other mmo's follow suit because its a great formula, if it doesnt work for you thats on you. Theres a couple posters here just like to read what they write cause they consider it intelligent and informative, when the reality is there not actually applying anything. They keep screaming "Be innovative devs" when there already working hard on keeping the current system maintained. Running in circles with there heads cut off screaming the sky is falling. Were talking mainstream games, im sure theres some indie games that will suit your needs.

    Im a believer in not knocking something unless you can do it better. (within reason) Maybe this band of entitled people should ban together, get there own ip and make there kinda game. Leave the developers to decide, cause obviously how huge the market is, how huge its growing, its working.

    JELLO has been enjoyed for a  very long time, same formula,still enjoyed. Not everyone likes JELLO, theres been nothing revolutionary about JELLO over the years, but its still great stuff. Enjoyed by millions. How does this relate? Because why mess with a formula that proves effective? 

    Honestly, a few people in here need to leave mmo's behind. Or gaming in general. 


    ScotSteelhelmUngood
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
     I hate JELLO ...
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,570
    edited June 8
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
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