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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 129
    AlBQuirky said:


    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    There is, games like WoW offer world quests, which rewards are based on current ilvl and offfer upgrades. There not top tier gear, but with said gear you mow down mobs. Isnt that why they want gear anyway? To destroy mobs? Theres ample ways to obtain that gear, the only thing it isnt good enough for, is go figure, raiding.
    AlBQuirky
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,273
    edited June 2019
    Maelstrom Arena! 

    Why has no one else (including myself) brought it up?!

    For those who don’t know ESO introduced a solo raid like encounter. You fought around 10 bosses each with 3 or so different phases. You had 100 lives I believe, and when completed, you’d be scored on lives remaining and how fast you cleared.

    Maelstrom may have been the hardest PVE content I’ve ever done. I was one of the first 75 to clear it.  It took two weeks, 4 hours maybe 6 a day and 1000’s of lives lost. 

    Several times I reached the point of thinking to myself “maybe you’re just not good enough”. I had no one to blame or lean on. It was just me, my skill, and knowledge of builds. 

    In short if people wanted to solo content like this for the “best gear” I’d be perfectly fine.

    You know what though? 95% of you people asking for challenging solo content that gives the best gear WOULD NOT do Maelstrom Arena more than once or twice.  You’d look at yourself and say “maybe I don’t deserve the best gear”.

    Hmmm maybe that’s why it wasn’t mentioned... not enough people did it...

    edit- a truly terrifying place for those of us who think we’re great. I wouldn’t go back. Nah, y’all don’t want that smoke.
    IselinAlBQuirky
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    UngoodVermillion_RaventhalIselinAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,846
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    AmatheOGDeathRowAlBQuirky

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  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,273
    Limnic said:
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,698
    bcbully said:
    Limnic said:
    Malestrom Arena is aight, and I've done it for achievements, but none of my builds have benefited from going there.

    However, it is not quite as much of a departure as you seem to interpret it as as it's still an instanced dungeon experience focused on the same style of play as the likes of raids. I'ts just a one-man version. That's not much variety going on there. Yes it's a solo experience, but that's it. If people want challenging content that's not just "jump in a dungeon and learn a canned process" it's still in general lacking across the industry, this is even a fault of the examples that have been given about WoW where each "alternative" has effectively just been a permutation of the same thing scaled up or down a little.
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    The unique weapon rewards of the veteran difficulty version of MA are also still BIS for a lot of builds in dungeons, raids and even PvP... if RNG is good to you that is :)

    But my point in a post I made above still stands and is what I believe @Limnic is also getting at: these instanced things that MMOs do to up the difficulty shouldn't be the most difficult content they have. Those top tier things should be part of the normal open world overland content.

    I mentioned Rift as an example and @Kyleran provided a few others. Those community-wide events are what sets MMOs apart from other genres and what they should be leveraging to make them stand-out from the kind of content anyone can do in MMO-lites.
    LimnicAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ferdiaferdia Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    bcbully said:
    I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
    As @Iselin stated my point was that the content should not be so narrowly applied.

    The most challenging elements of a game really should not be isolated to little pockets of a finite type, as they simply do not need to be. You can create high-tier challenges for a broad variety of gaming, including even crafting.

    The problem in this regard is how most games simply don't have that. The only end-game challenge ends up only catering to a single style of play, and things like WoW's scaled queues and even the Maelstrom Arena runs into issue with is that it's all "the same thing", just scaled a bit back and forth.

    More components of the game and more styles of play and user experiences should be offered such depth. And that's where examples from Iselin and Kyleran come in.

    Then there are other facets like what @Vermillion_Raventhal has been trying to get across (or at least as I have understood it), that individual activities can have more task-driven rewards. IE, raiding gear caters expressly to furthering the raiding experience and other systems have similarly uinqie gear to further their own respective experience.

    We do have a bit of that, but it tends to cut itself short as PvE vs PvP gear rather than having any greater granularity catering to more unique styles of play therein, instead often falling into the strict sense of BiS and FotM where BiS could instead mean "This set is best for exploring this zone." or "This set is best for hunting/trapping for people trying to material farm."

    Stuff like that does happen and has happened before, but even when it does/has it is often neglected and falls by the wayside as further content additions renders it all irrelevant again. And not in the "we added another tier to it" way, but the "well this one set is better at doing almost everything" way.

    Ver's suggestion caters well to the idea of players being more specialized, having a strong leaning into specific play styles and roles that can exist as an interdependent community.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,846
    edited June 2019
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    Feel like @Vermillion_Raventhal may need to try and qualify his argument a little as it seems like there has been some degree of interpretation going on.

    Like @Scot seems to be taking it to mean replacing raids, which I did not personally interpret it as such.

    Flip side there being where Ver mentions he still thinks raiding should reward the best "raiding gear" as opposed to "BiS" gear.

    The idea seems to rest more on the idea that at endgame there is no singular "BiS" and that int instead is dependent on which part of the game you wanna focus on, Much as there is PvE and PvP gear, it'd be specific to activities like "if you raid alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids" instead of "if you quest alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids".

    Closest counterpoint to this subject I think I've seen would be the commentary about content like quests being easier to complete than a raid (and thus you don't need the raid gear), which kind of indicates another problem rather than actually being a/the solution.

    Point then cycling to what I and others have noted, more elements of the game should offer the same kind of depth and challenges. Gear that you obtain for that challenge could/would then further your ability to progress along that content as the "BiS" for that activity.

    At no point does that undermine the value of raids, and instead for the sake of people like Scot who are saying they want more group content, could open more types of group user experiences back up to being relevant and enjoyed by the userbase rather than neglected because the only meaningful rewards sits within such a finite scope of the content. 
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    Lol, it is not an assault on grouping. I always see people clutching their purses as soon as something different is suggested.  Not sure how suggesting changing reward method and challenge being harder for solo and small groups will making the MMORPG "easy."

    Grouping is dependent on game design not raiding which is a minority of the players and content for the most part.  
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    Actually quite the opposite.. it's about being able to put in the time.. in a manner I enjoy.
    acidblood
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear.  If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.

    See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.  
    .


    Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.

    We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
    I would say the main point here, is I don't see a problem with a Cake-Walk MMO, where the raiders can go play some other game if they need challenge or whatever.

    Personally, I think Raiders ruined GW2, which is a great example of a Cake-Walk MMO, done right, up till HoT. And then all these cry babies whined and complained about needing challenge and all that bullshit, so Anet gave them what they wanted, and this drove away the casuals, which in the end resulted in a massive loss of income, canceling all their other projects, and terminating half their staff to stay solvent.

    So yah.. some MMO's should tell raiders to go fuck off and find another game.

    I do not see any problem with that.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,656
    ferdia said:
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    Welcome to the forums! Not a bad first post, could use a touch of snarkiness, here, hold my beer and follow my lead...

    ;)

    UngoodScotSteelhelmAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    ferdia said:
    1st post so please be gentle on me xD

    I would suggest that:
    Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
    Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.

    As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).

    ...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.

    in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.

    if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
    if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.

    Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.

    too much?
    Hi, Welcome to the forums.

    ... ya know.. when I read posts like this.. I just know we are all not playing the same games.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 877
    Bad design results in millions of monthly revenue, for years. Spin off after spin off of said design go figure. Some people......need to stop thinking they know everything.
    Or in spite of it... I can only speak for myself of course, but I quit Vanilla WoW when it became clear that the developers had no interest in releasing any substantial new content that wasn't the next raid (and I had run out of other things to do; literally, I even spent 2 months farming Rune Cloth so I could get an Epic Orgrimmar Wolf for my Forsaken Mage... those were the days).

    I came back for TBC and stayed a while due to heroic dungeons and epic crafting but once again quit when raiding became the only thing left to do. I was talked into getting WotLK, got to cap and did a few things, but sure enough the pattern repeated, and at this point I was done, for good.

    The next MMO I really sank time into was FFXIV ARR, which I enjoyed quite a lot... until they seemed to only be releasing new raids :facepalm: 'here we go again' I thought, and un-subbed. Fast forward a few years and I'm back playing FFXIV, not for the raiding though (or any of the 'gear grinds' really), instead I play for the world, the story, the gameplay, any long-term progression, and the people I know and meet in-game.

    Now of course I know that grinds do keep people around and playing, and that challenging raids attract a certain hardcore audience that can add a lot to the game, but when the focus of a game is (or becomes) raiding, raiding, and nothing but raiding, it makes the rest of the game (which is where the majority of the player base hangs out*) very stale.

    * Even for the most prolific Japanese (JP) FFXIV raiding servers’ Savage Raid clear rates are estimated to only be about 25%. This quickly drops to around 10% (or less) for the top NA and EU servers, and for most JP servers. The vast majority of NA and EU servers (which are also the most populated) have estimated clear rates of less than 5%.
    UngoodVermillion_Raventhal
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,366
    AAAMEOW said:
    well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol.  No shit they should get the best gear in the game.

    That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP.  Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid.  OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog.  Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
    i see you dont play much games


    the main reason raids have the best gear is simple if not no one would do the raids, save for the try hard raiders who love to work like a bot
    Ya, I don't play much game.  I'm an addicted gamer but I play one game at a time.  

    That being said, I'm trying very hard to find games which raid lock gear(by reading online).  But having a hard time find any beside wow.  I think most developers do agree with the OP.  Not to mention most studio probably didn't invest as much time developing their raid content.  

    So which mmorpg raid lock best pve gear beside wow?
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 129
    Scot said:
    Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
    Ya, im done here too. Alot of these posts are just plain retarded. The original question was should gear be locked, yes. Thats it.  Those stats on said gear are needed to push content, not kill mobs. Don't like it? Don't play it? I know I don't play games I dont enjoy. Know what I don't do? Run to a forum to knock a fair system. If you don't think its fair, your entitled. All these games offer accesible gear thats far more powerful then you need as a non raider.

    These nay sayers are scorned for some reason. Its a shame, that they cant just be happy for others. Most games dont require you to raid at all, and have a plethora of activities to keep people logging in. Since WOW is forever brought up, crafting is important in WOW (I know cause that was my gold income for years) cause it enables gearing alts easy or selling said gear for gold or to make pets/mounts/toys, to maybe even buy raid runs, pet collection, achievement hunting, fashion shows.......the list goes on. Many other mmo's follow suit because its a great formula, if it doesnt work for you thats on you. Theres a couple posters here just like to read what they write cause they consider it intelligent and informative, when the reality is there not actually applying anything. They keep screaming "Be innovative devs" when there already working hard on keeping the current system maintained. Running in circles with there heads cut off screaming the sky is falling. Were talking mainstream games, im sure theres some indie games that will suit your needs.

    Im a believer in not knocking something unless you can do it better. (within reason) Maybe this band of entitled people should ban together, get there own ip and make there kinda game. Leave the developers to decide, cause obviously how huge the market is, how huge its growing, its working.

    JELLO has been enjoyed for a  very long time, same formula,still enjoyed. Not everyone likes JELLO, theres been nothing revolutionary about JELLO over the years, but its still great stuff. Enjoyed by millions. How does this relate? Because why mess with a formula that proves effective? 

    Honestly, a few people in here need to leave mmo's behind. Or gaming in general. 


    ScotSteelhelmUngood
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
     I hate JELLO ...
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,680
    edited June 2019
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    Alot of these posts are just plain retarded.

    ...entitled people...
    Irony be thine name.

    Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.

    So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?

    Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?

    It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.

    But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism. 

    EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.

    It was "Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid#LVueJ7KvwT2kjlbo.99

    IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.

    When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.

    This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature. 
    Post edited by Limnic on
    AlBQuirky
  • ferdiaferdia Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    edited June 2019
    I liked that post Limnic

    To my mind its simple math that there should be more then 1 way | 1 aspect to end game content (leveling; gearing) in order to appeal to the maximum player base. Whether that is Raids, Crafting, PvP or otherwise is irrelevant, the more the better (and yes, i said, leveling as a result of crafting/pvp).

    edit...and yes items should drop and by extension, pay to win should exist. While there are many (types of) games that dont have items as a feature, personalisation is a key component that casual players (to my mind) look for.

    I honestly see so many opportunities to make these games more appealing to a far wider playerbase, and this arguement can also be used for the OP's comments.
    Steelhelm
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,680
    edited June 2019
    Limnic said:
    snip
    Raiding can be -- and in most cases is a huge part of an MMO community even if not too many people do it compared to the amount of people who don't. I feel like crafting is one of those systems that doesn't work quite so well in a raiding environment , but it can be done reasonably. You can craft consumables for raiders, you can craft one or two off pieces that take (tradeable) dropped materials from the raids that you can buy off the market,ect. Those kind of things tie very much directly into raiding. Crafting shouldn't get you the best gear in the game though unless it requires the same level of challenge as the hardest content in the game -- or it's a sandbox MMO.  Based on what I just said as well, raiding has a HUGE impact on the economy.

    I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist. That is just how it should work. Gear is not everything, but it should always have value. The second you remove that value (IE: Make it so you can grind ore in a zone for several hours a day and get the same equipment as someone who worked together with 9-19 other people taking collectively hundreds of hours to earn) is when gear becomes a boring and meaningless part of the game that no one cares about at all.

    You don't need to be able to get the best rewards in the game in order to enjoy it. Most people don't and still play. The journey of an MMO is important and if you can't raid for whatever reason right now -- maybe you will have an opportunity to in the future. There is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with going back and doing older raids now that there are new raids and enjoying them that way through minor catch up mechanics without completely resetting the items in the game every raid tier. (This is the way it largely worked in WoW from Vanilla - end of Wrath) Funnily enough, if you start to map out when WoW started losing most of it's players..it started happening when the game became more "everyone can experience everything!" mentality.

    There should always be a desire to do content that you can't always do because of time constraints or lack of skill. This creates a compelling reason to keep playing. Maybe this summer I will have time to raid or this new guild I am in is gonna casually raid soon! Maybe I have been playing long enough to feel good enough at the game to raid or maybe I am suddenly inspired to do all these things. If you don't have enough time to commit to a small window once a week to slowly progress through raid content, honestly you don't have time for MMOs in the first place.

    If you don't create that desire to aspire to be better / conquer harder content, you just don't create the social bonds that make MMOs really great and keep people playing. It is pretty easy to say that someone who can't raid just hits end game and stops just before raiding. That isn't really true, as any reasonably good MMO will have progression that doesn't shove you right into raids. This is the great part about something like vanilla WoW; you hit end game but you still had a few months potentially of gearing before you had to do raids to get better gear. Obviously there were mistakes made (Raid gear decimating PvP), but the core stuff is there. The idea would be that if you can raid, you do that and get better gear then the dungeons anyways. People who don't aren't really missing out until the gear grind dries up and they can't raid. At this point they would ideally have friends to help them get into alt runs for guild raids, more casual guilds to raid,ect. If not -- they can play alts, they can PvP, or maybe they can work there way towards buying up a few of the raid drops that are tradeable. If you aren't raiding, why do you need gear that you only need....for raiding? Isn't your whole point that once gear dries up there is no reason to keep playing? The same exact thing happens -- and has happened for years now in WoW WITH raiding being accessible. Sure, they can't always get the best gear, but they get to complete all the raid content on a version that is usually just lower numbers. Does that really make the game better? All you are doing is moving the goal posts in this scenario and making the whole progression of the game less interesting for everyone.


    Games like ESO and GW2 are good examples of this problem. Both have raiding, but both are largely focused on cosmetic progression. Notice I didn't say horizontal, as that would imply they were both constantly adding new gameplay options to progress towards. GW2 only really does this with new mounts these days and ESO doesn't really do it at all. Both of these games are largely treated, at least from my perspective, as short term --jump in when there is a large update every quarter, maybe less, and play it for a couple weeks then jump back out--. This is perfectly fine and both of these games are good in their own right, but they just don't create the same social structure that vertical progression based on overcoming challenging content has.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    Dear lord, one second.
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