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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,188
    edited June 7
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    The bottom line for me here is that MMORPG's which were all about grouping are now all about soloing. The one bastion of good group content that remains is raids. So removing that is an anathema to me. It is not as if you don't craft or quest before top level so they are not good enough as a replacement, indeed anything not group based is not good enough. I think you mentioned a small group option, or another poster did, I am all for that as long as it does not fully replace full raids. It might be the prelude to raiding, getting those who have soloed their entire time to top level "Raid ready".

    Go forth and raid young man!. :) 
    AlBQuirky

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,490
    edited June 7
    Iselin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    Designing mechanics around instanced content, when you put best gear into an instance, you have kind of lost the idea what an mmo is imo.
    I

    Rift had the right idea with their zone wide events that needed a response from everyone in the zone to restore it to its pre invasion state. Their auto group raid formation by proximity to an event was also a nice step forward.

    But that was so many years ago now and no one else has really taken that idea and run with it.
    Remember Tabula Rasa? I never got to play, but as I recall its premise was pitting the entire player base against an online alien NPC invasion, a great concept which ended too soon perhaps.

    Also, Aion I think had a 3rd npc faction which acted independently in the PVP zone which players either battled or cooperated with to further their aims.

    In EVE there are npc pirate incursions which invade a particular region of space which negatively impact the productivity of various PVE activities.

    Players have to band together in coordinated fleets and defeat the pirates via a series of tiered battles culminating in a 100 plus fleet to beat the mothership.

    It was a semi brilliant piece of PVE work which CCP screwed up on as they so often do with their obsession for PVP.

    Incursion running really only appealed to hardcore PVEers, requiring players to train skills for many months and spend small fortunes to fit and fly the necessary ships.

    The battles required a degree of coordination and the smallest error could result in the fleet dying horribly with billions of ISK lost. 

    Like most content in EVE, incursions can be scanned down and invaded by others, so any group of ya hoos in a cheap throw away ship could invade, not to win the fight but just disrupt it enough to cause a wipe before dying themselves.  (EVEs full of people who's only real joy in life is spoiling other people's fun)

    The wardec mechanic also hurt, anytime players tried to form a corporation to run incursions (because forming corps is a fun part of MMOs) they'd find themselves as open targets.

    Worse, since incursions were often run with mixed fleets,  no fleet commander would ever let you join if your Corp was under a wardec....

    It really was PVE content I enjoyed, but the only reasonable way to do it was remain as an unaffiliated player and that was asking me to give up too much of the social part of EVE which I wasn't willing to do.



    Post edited by Kyleran on
    SteelhelmIselin

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,576
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    I don't agree that "every group" figures out anything. The first raid group to defeat a boss figures it out. Maybe the next 2 or 3 groups, too. The rest just copy what worked. It doesn't always go smoothly, and many fail until they get coordinated enough. Where is effort here, other than working together better? It would be nice if there was other "hard PvE content" that non-raiders could enjoy. They don't need top end raid gear, like you pointed out, but nice gear of their own would be nice, don't you think?

    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    KyleranScot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,599
    edited June 7
    Imagine a game where dungeons / raid content was randomly generated. Where you were provided a location to a dungeon entrance after acquiring the quest. Sound familiar? It's called Anarchy Online.
    Steelhelm

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Shaigh said:
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    Your annoyance is based on rigidly locked point of view that you need a large group for challenging content. 
    Would you play group content where it would take 3-5 hours to learn the patterns of the fight and where you would end up stuck on the final boss for a month due to dying somewhere around 100 times because someone else screwed up.

    People love to say that they want challenging content but the moment developers put in group content that takes actual devotion most people still don't play it.

    If you look for challenge in solo content you play the wrong genre of games.
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go. Combat is not the only social interaction the genre has to offer. Grouped combat often waste times that why LF came about.  But without any community backbone it makes the genre shallow.

    How us something truly communal if only a small percentage of people want to do?  The rest play Russian roulette with randos to try to get some decent gear because they have too.  

    Look at games like SWG where crafters make the best gear, grouping makes things easier but not always required.  Players need each other on a more personal level and economic level.  It feels more natural. It had a vibrant community. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,576
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    OGDeathRowblamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    I think your problem is you think mmorpg's must be played the way you think they should be played.
    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    blamo2000 said:
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
    Umm lets get something clear, you were never in any Risk, no matter how many times you lost, wiped, died, you never actually took a risk doing the raid, as you could always get back up and try again.

    So, really what we are talking about is, Time Investment, and if we are going to talk about a players time investment into the game, there is no viable reason not to reward a players solo time investment the same as players group time investment, in short, there is nothing special about raids that merits their increased rewards.

    There is only a delusion that they deserve such a place due to an archaic concept that gamers cling to, but there is no legitimate reason for them to offer any better reward in modern gaming than solo play offers.
    If this is true, why don't 100% of players do raids and reap all the great gear rewards?  I don't raid because it is a huge pain in the ass and hassle.  I love solo content because it isn't.

    Serious raiding sucks and is like an annoying job.  If it doesn't have the best rewards only a handful of masochists would engage in it.  

    I honestly have a hard time understanding how you could come to the conclusions above.  I've been getting shit for two-decades now for being a huge proponent of expanded solo play content in mmorpgs, and getting ruthlessly attacked for it (the old why play a multiplayer game if you want to play mostly solo, etc.) - I honestly never thought I'd see the day when I would have to defend the blatant and obvious fact that raiding is a huge annoying, difficult, pain-in-the-ass and raiders clearly deserve the best rewards.  

    LOL, it's only a "Huge Pain in the Ass" because of the other players, in Modern MMO's the mechanics for each individual member of the team are no harder than the existing solo or small group content in the game already, with highest door of difficulty of a raid being putting up with the other players that get a hard-on for this kind of content.

    The sad reality is Raids in modern MMO, the it's literally the game devs bribing players to put up with their elitist asshole population by offering them a trophy for doing so as opposed to putting in events where players would want to roll with each other naturally.
    gunklackerVermillion_Raventhalbcbully
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 124
    Limnic said:
    B-
    Your entire argument has one major flaw, you failed to grasp the very simple statement that any element of gameplay that you perceive as challenging, has thus-far not been an element of gameplay unique to raids or that can only exist within a raid framework.

    Hence the "bad development" comment, because while that statement is hyperbolic, it was meant to highlight the point that the developers that choose to focus on raids as their primary/sole form of endgame, have consequently put all their eggs into one basket in one form of endgame that is not accounting for a large swathe of users.

    Your own example was itself just talking about more of the same. Instead of branching out it's just another dungeon to raid.

    It seems you simply have chosen indignation over understanding. Instead of acknowledging the point that the gameplay mechanics that makes something like a raid can be applied across a broad type of gaming experiences, you instead drum up a false argument about entitlement even though no one actually has argued such a position.

    Before you get indignant about something that's said, spend the time to read what other's write.
    Theres that horse again. Again as I stated before WHY wouldnt they increase the bar for certain activities? Thats not bad design. Thats for those seeking the harder challenge. Gives another OPTION. I get it raid mechanics can blossom elsewhere in the world, but raids highten the bar, how hard is that to understand? Majority rules as well, how hard is that to understand?

     The thing with the eggs in the raiding basket is that raiding and pvp really are the only end game options for group play. It is a MMO.......what should they do? Have a dance off in a city square for higher stat gear to kill enemies? Or maybe hide n seek? To have the best gear in a MMO, should revolve around group play, since it is a MMO. Its not a broken system obviously as its becoming a esport (mythic+ dungeons) should the lower skilled players be rocking that Mythic +15 gear that those guys EARNED to compete on stage? No.

    Oh and I read alot in this thread, and it is entitlement to the core, and your arguement is blame the developers for bad design. Why was dark souls a breakthrough title? Because of its harsh penalty for timing mistakes, too many mobs, not paying attention. It didnt do anything revolutionary. So why do you expect MMO's to be revolutionary to a hand full of criers? Fortnite, is that revolutionary? Heck no. Base building, been done before, 100 man free for all done before (I played many games that werent capped by a player limit) 

    Ya, not gonna lie, it is annoying reading people cry about being a have not when they choose to not earn the reward. This was the downfall of MMO's to alot of players, everything went casual, nothing is earned, the developers listened to the few K people acting like children crying for more, and gave it to them. That made them happy, as for the elite players they were scorned, but they still had there spot. So now you wanna take the only thing the top tier players have left? What a joke. The best should earn the best. Not a hard concept, you get outta life what you put in it. 

    I honestly think its you who has misunderstood what the OP was original stating, that raiding shouldnt be the best gear (AKA same level gear comes from other sources) but heres the thing, raiding is the most challenging aspect of these games BY CHOICE OF DEVELOPERS TO CHALLENGE THE ELITE. So ya, it should be locked. AGAIN NOT BAD GAME DESIGN. 

    Good and bad are subjective, what you think is bad, doesnt make it bad. Honestly, after typing all this out, almost dont wanna post it. This will be my last post in this thread speaking towards you, cause honestly your just throwing fancy words around with a poor punchline and a weak arguement......bad design rofl, tell that to the millions of people that raid/mythic+/RvR. Anyone who disagrees with this system is wrong, and has entitlement issues, sorry to say. 

    To the victor go the spoils. 





  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 124
    Shaigh said:

    How us something truly communal if only a small percentage of people want to do?  The rest play Russian roulette with randos to try to get some decent gear because they have too.  


    Only a small portion of people craft in games, so with this statement your saying we should eliminate that too? Small portion of people collect vanity items, should we remove them as well?What aboput games with housing, way more could go without, so remove those as well?  
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,154
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
    Umm lets get something clear, you were never in any Risk, no matter how many times you lost, wiped, died, you never actually took a risk doing the raid, as you could always get back up and try again.

    So, really what we are talking about is, Time Investment, and if we are going to talk about a players time investment into the game, there is no viable reason not to reward a players solo time investment the same as players group time investment, in short, there is nothing special about raids that merits their increased rewards.

    There is only a delusion that they deserve such a place due to an archaic concept that gamers cling to, but there is no legitimate reason for them to offer any better reward in modern gaming than solo play offers.
    ya but raid is the most invested content (in certain mmo).  That is why it is rewarded the best.

    In order to get the best gear in the game this is what I need to do (in certain mmo).  For starter, I have to finish all the non raid content to gear up for the first raid.  After that, I need to raid the first raid every week for a few month to gear up for the second raid.  After that, I need to do the second raid for a few month to gear up for the third raid.  By the time I'm finished and finally get the best gear, it is already 1 year later.

    Raid is not just difficult because the combat is difficult.  Raid is also difficult because it require lots of "effort".  

    I don't have a problem with rewarding solo player or non raid content.  But they need to put the same amount of effort if they want gear as good as the best raid gear.  And there are games which do that, for example legendary gear in GW2.
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 124
    AlBQuirky said:
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    I don't agree that "every group" figures out anything. The first raid group to defeat a boss figures it out. Maybe the next 2 or 3 groups, too. The rest just copy what worked. It doesn't always go smoothly, and many fail until they get coordinated enough. Where is effort here, other than working together better? It would be nice if there was other "hard PvE content" that non-raiders could enjoy. They don't need top end raid gear, like you pointed out, but nice gear of their own would be nice, don't you think?

    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    There always is gear for the non raiders thats ample enough to get the job done (killing mobs). The only difference  is raid gear is stronger. Which it should be since raiders are taking on harder challenges.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 964
    Ungood said:


    LOL, it's only a "Huge Pain in the Ass" because of the other players, in Modern MMO's the mechanics for each individual member of the team are no harder than the existing solo or small group content in the game already, with highest door of difficulty of a raid being putting up with the other players that get a hard-on for this kind of content.

    The sad reality is Raids in modern MMO, the it's literally the game devs bribing players to put up with their elitist asshole population by offering them a trophy for doing so as opposed to putting in events where players would want to roll with each other naturally.
    I mainly agree, but that leaves out a couple facts that can't be ignored.  

    1) In solo, success or failure is dependent 100% on you.  In raids, it is dependent on other people not sucking too bad, or not making mistakes.  As well as people being willing to stand up and try to guide/lead everyone so they don't suck too bad and don't make mistakes.

    2) It is difficult to get a large group of people together and on the same page.  Unlike world event content, which factors in ad-hock grouping and mainly bad players gathering and making constant mistakes, raids tend to be far less forgiving.  If you tried raiding in some of the harder raids of Wildstar it truly required all participants to be actually good.  That's why the game was so hated.  

    3) Not only is it difficult to get a large group together, it is very annoying.  The logistics of running it is a huge hassle.  It also severely restricts the opportunity to do the content.  With solo content you can just keep trying.  With raiding you have a very restricted time window for success.  You also have a lot of drama and strong emotions, communication issues, etc.  With every player added to a group the annoyance factor and chance for drama multiplies.

    4)  Why do you prefer solo?  For me, its because if my wife or kids call  or need me I don't have to worry about anything.  Also, people play wrong in my opinion.  They either go to fast or too slow, they do things that annoy the shit out of me like skipping loot or corpses, leaving loot on the ground, skipping nodes, and other things that set off my OCD.  The only reason I would ever group with other people is because of actual tangible rewards I cannot get otherwise.  Because soling is just far better, far less annoying, far less of a challenge (dealing with others is a huge challenge), gives me less anxiety, and is far more enjoyable.  

    So, even though I prefer solo content, and I think there should definitely be a way to progress gear for solo players, I cannot be dishonest and think solo should get the same level of rewards of small groups, and small groups should get the same rewards and gear progression of large, difficult raids.  
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    AlBQuirky said:
    There is no such thing as wrong genre as far as MMORPG go.
    I think this is your basic problem. You want something other than MMORPGs, but labeled as such.
    Tell me what are the requirements for a MMORPG?


    klash2def
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Limnic said:
    B-
    Your entire argument has one major flaw, you failed to grasp the very simple statement that any element of gameplay that you perceive as challenging, has thus-far not been an element of gameplay unique to raids or that can only exist within a raid framework.

    Hence the "bad development" comment, because while that statement is hyperbolic, it was meant to highlight the point that the developers that choose to focus on raids as their primary/sole form of endgame, have consequently put all their eggs into one basket in one form of endgame that is not accounting for a large swathe of users.

    Your own example was itself just talking about more of the same. Instead of branching out it's just another dungeon to raid.

    It seems you simply have chosen indignation over understanding. Instead of acknowledging the point that the gameplay mechanics that makes something like a raid can be applied across a broad type of gaming experiences, you instead drum up a false argument about entitlement even though no one actually has argued such a position.

    Before you get indignant about something that's said, spend the time to read what other's write.
    Theres that horse again. Again as I stated before WHY wouldnt they increase the bar for certain activities? Thats not bad design. Thats for those seeking the harder challenge. Gives another OPTION. I get it raid mechanics can blossom elsewhere in the world, but raids highten the bar, how hard is that to understand? Majority rules as well, how hard is that to understand?

     The thing with the eggs in the raiding basket is that raiding and pvp really are the only end game options for group play. It is a MMO.......what should they do? Have a dance off in a city square for higher stat gear to kill enemies? Or maybe hide n seek? To have the best gear in a MMO, should revolve around group play, since it is a MMO. Its not a broken system obviously as its becoming a esport (mythic+ dungeons) should the lower skilled players be rocking that Mythic +15 gear that those guys EARNED to compete on stage? No.

    Oh and I read alot in this thread, and it is entitlement to the core, and your arguement is blame the developers for bad design. Why was dark souls a breakthrough title? Because of its harsh penalty for timing mistakes, too many mobs, not paying attention. It didnt do anything revolutionary. So why do you expect MMO's to be revolutionary to a hand full of criers? Fortnite, is that revolutionary? Heck no. Base building, been done before, 100 man free for all done before (I played many games that werent capped by a player limit) 

    Ya, not gonna lie, it is annoying reading people cry about being a have not when they choose to not earn the reward. This was the downfall of MMO's to alot of players, everything went casual, nothing is earned, the developers listened to the few K people acting like children crying for more, and gave it to them. That made them happy, as for the elite players they were scorned, but they still had there spot. So now you wanna take the only thing the top tier players have left? What a joke. The best should earn the best. Not a hard concept, you get outta life what you put in it. 

    I honestly think its you who has misunderstood what the OP was original stating, that raiding shouldnt be the best gear (AKA same level gear comes from other sources) but heres the thing, raiding is the most challenging aspect of these games BY CHOICE OF DEVELOPERS TO CHALLENGE THE ELITE. So ya, it should be locked. AGAIN NOT BAD GAME DESIGN. 

    Good and bad are subjective, what you think is bad, doesnt make it bad. Honestly, after typing all this out, almost dont wanna post it. This will be my last post in this thread speaking towards you, cause honestly your just throwing fancy words around with a poor punchline and a weak arguement......bad design rofl, tell that to the millions of people that raid/mythic+/RvR. Anyone who disagrees with this system is wrong, and has entitlement issues, sorry to say. 

    To the victor go the spoils. 





    Entitlement goes both ways but one is exclusive and one inclusive. You feel one group of players is entitled to the best others feel everyone is entitled to the best doing what they do.

    The majority do not raid and most would never raid if it wasn't for LF type features. It was under 10 percent who raided.  

    The whole point of this post was that other types of playstyle should have their own.  If everyone having their own would kill raiding then maybe it is a bad game mechanic. Sorry if everyone doesn't agree the boys club that suffer to raid deserves their own.  


    Limnic
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    In every game, there are winners and losers, there are better and worse players. If all the the players will be equalized, what is the point to play? 
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,154
    Limnic said:
    B-
    Your entire argument has one major flaw, you failed to grasp the very simple statement that any element of gameplay that you perceive as challenging, has thus-far not been an element of gameplay unique to raids or that can only exist within a raid framework.

    Hence the "bad development" comment, because while that statement is hyperbolic, it was meant to highlight the point that the developers that choose to focus on raids as their primary/sole form of endgame, have consequently put all their eggs into one basket in one form of endgame that is not accounting for a large swathe of users.

    Your own example was itself just talking about more of the same. Instead of branching out it's just another dungeon to raid.

    It seems you simply have chosen indignation over understanding. Instead of acknowledging the point that the gameplay mechanics that makes something like a raid can be applied across a broad type of gaming experiences, you instead drum up a false argument about entitlement even though no one actually has argued such a position.

    Before you get indignant about something that's said, spend the time to read what other's write.
    Theres that horse again. Again as I stated before WHY wouldnt they increase the bar for certain activities? Thats not bad design. Thats for those seeking the harder challenge. Gives another OPTION. I get it raid mechanics can blossom elsewhere in the world, but raids highten the bar, how hard is that to understand? Majority rules as well, how hard is that to understand?

     The thing with the eggs in the raiding basket is that raiding and pvp really are the only end game options for group play. It is a MMO.......what should they do? Have a dance off in a city square for higher stat gear to kill enemies? Or maybe hide n seek? To have the best gear in a MMO, should revolve around group play, since it is a MMO. Its not a broken system obviously as its becoming a esport (mythic+ dungeons) should the lower skilled players be rocking that Mythic +15 gear that those guys EARNED to compete on stage? No.

    Oh and I read alot in this thread, and it is entitlement to the core, and your arguement is blame the developers for bad design. Why was dark souls a breakthrough title? Because of its harsh penalty for timing mistakes, too many mobs, not paying attention. It didnt do anything revolutionary. So why do you expect MMO's to be revolutionary to a hand full of criers? Fortnite, is that revolutionary? Heck no. Base building, been done before, 100 man free for all done before (I played many games that werent capped by a player limit) 

    Ya, not gonna lie, it is annoying reading people cry about being a have not when they choose to not earn the reward. This was the downfall of MMO's to alot of players, everything went casual, nothing is earned, the developers listened to the few K people acting like children crying for more, and gave it to them. That made them happy, as for the elite players they were scorned, but they still had there spot. So now you wanna take the only thing the top tier players have left? What a joke. The best should earn the best. Not a hard concept, you get outta life what you put in it. 

    I honestly think its you who has misunderstood what the OP was original stating, that raiding shouldnt be the best gear (AKA same level gear comes from other sources) but heres the thing, raiding is the most challenging aspect of these games BY CHOICE OF DEVELOPERS TO CHALLENGE THE ELITE. So ya, it should be locked. AGAIN NOT BAD GAME DESIGN. 

    Good and bad are subjective, what you think is bad, doesnt make it bad. Honestly, after typing all this out, almost dont wanna post it. This will be my last post in this thread speaking towards you, cause honestly your just throwing fancy words around with a poor punchline and a weak arguement......bad design rofl, tell that to the millions of people that raid/mythic+/RvR. Anyone who disagrees with this system is wrong, and has entitlement issues, sorry to say. 

    To the victor go the spoils. 





    Entitlement goes both ways but one is exclusive and one inclusive. You feel one group of players is entitled to the best others feel everyone is entitled to the best doing what they do.

    The majority do not raid and most would never raid if it wasn't for LF type features. It was under 10 percent who raided.  

    The whole point of this post was that other types of playstyle should have their own.  If everyone having their own would kill raiding then maybe it is a bad game mechanic. Sorry if everyone doesn't agree the boys club that suffer to raid deserves their own.  


    What game are you talking about that most dont' raid though?

    I remember people talking about very few people raid in destiny.  But people check another stats.  Which is most people quit very soon.  If they quit very soon of course they don't raid.  If you subtract the people who quit.  A high percentage of people raid.

    It is like people saying 2% of people spend on cash shop on mobile phone.  But when you talk to people you meet, half of the people spent money.  

    A better way to check is to see the percentage of people who are online raid.  Instead of checking the percentage of account ever created raid.  
    alkarionlog
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    B-
    Your entire argument has one major flaw, you failed to grasp the very simple statement that any element of gameplay that you perceive as challenging, has thus-far not been an element of gameplay unique to raids or that can only exist within a raid framework.

    Hence the "bad development" comment, because while that statement is hyperbolic, it was meant to highlight the point that the developers that choose to focus on raids as their primary/sole form of endgame, have consequently put all their eggs into one basket in one form of endgame that is not accounting for a large swathe of users.

    Your own example was itself just talking about more of the same. Instead of branching out it's just another dungeon to raid.

    It seems you simply have chosen indignation over understanding. Instead of acknowledging the point that the gameplay mechanics that makes something like a raid can be applied across a broad type of gaming experiences, you instead drum up a false argument about entitlement even though no one actually has argued such a position.

    Before you get indignant about something that's said, spend the time to read what other's write.
    Theres that horse again. Again as I stated before WHY wouldnt they increase the bar for certain activities? Thats not bad design. Thats for those seeking the harder challenge. Gives another OPTION. I get it raid mechanics can blossom elsewhere in the world, but raids highten the bar, how hard is that to understand? Majority rules as well, how hard is that to understand?

     The thing with the eggs in the raiding basket is that raiding and pvp really are the only end game options for group play. It is a MMO.......what should they do? Have a dance off in a city square for higher stat gear to kill enemies? Or maybe hide n seek? To have the best gear in a MMO, should revolve around group play, since it is a MMO. Its not a broken system obviously as its becoming a esport (mythic+ dungeons) should the lower skilled players be rocking that Mythic +15 gear that those guys EARNED to compete on stage? No.

    Oh and I read alot in this thread, and it is entitlement to the core, and your arguement is blame the developers for bad design. Why was dark souls a breakthrough title? Because of its harsh penalty for timing mistakes, too many mobs, not paying attention. It didnt do anything revolutionary. So why do you expect MMO's to be revolutionary to a hand full of criers? Fortnite, is that revolutionary? Heck no. Base building, been done before, 100 man free for all done before (I played many games that werent capped by a player limit) 

    Ya, not gonna lie, it is annoying reading people cry about being a have not when they choose to not earn the reward. This was the downfall of MMO's to alot of players, everything went casual, nothing is earned, the developers listened to the few K people acting like children crying for more, and gave it to them. That made them happy, as for the elite players they were scorned, but they still had there spot. So now you wanna take the only thing the top tier players have left? What a joke. The best should earn the best. Not a hard concept, you get outta life what you put in it. 

    I honestly think its you who has misunderstood what the OP was original stating, that raiding shouldnt be the best gear (AKA same level gear comes from other sources) but heres the thing, raiding is the most challenging aspect of these games BY CHOICE OF DEVELOPERS TO CHALLENGE THE ELITE. So ya, it should be locked. AGAIN NOT BAD GAME DESIGN. 

    Good and bad are subjective, what you think is bad, doesnt make it bad. Honestly, after typing all this out, almost dont wanna post it. This will be my last post in this thread speaking towards you, cause honestly your just throwing fancy words around with a poor punchline and a weak arguement......bad design rofl, tell that to the millions of people that raid/mythic+/RvR. Anyone who disagrees with this system is wrong, and has entitlement issues, sorry to say. 

    To the victor go the spoils. 





    Entitlement goes both ways but one is exclusive and one inclusive. You feel one group of players is entitled to the best others feel everyone is entitled to the best doing what they do.

    The majority do not raid and most would never raid if it wasn't for LF type features. It was under 10 percent who raided.  

    The whole point of this post was that other types of playstyle should have their own.  If everyone having their own would kill raiding then maybe it is a bad game mechanic. Sorry if everyone doesn't agree the boys club that suffer to raid deserves their own.  


    What game are you talking about that most dont' raid though?

    I remember people talking about very few people raid in destiny.  But people check another stats.  Which is most people quit very soon.  If they quit very soon of course they don't raid.  If you subtract the people who quit.  A high percentage of people raid.

    It is like people saying 2% of people spend on cash shop on mobile phone.  But when you talk to people you meet, half of the people spent money.  

    A better way to check is to see the percentage of people who are online raid.  Instead of checking the percentage of account ever created raid.  
    In general, not quite.

    Most games you can find data for daily active users now, and raid completion rates, and even queuing generally denotes that less than a quarter of any given game's userbase has ever really been diehard raiders. Only a quarter at most ever really play the step-down raids, and the percentage that run "current" raids tends to be in the tens.

    As for @OGDeathRow

    You shouldn't talk about a high horse then build your entire argument around elitist and exclusivity arguments.

    Exactly how is it a "high horse" argument for me to say that game mechanics used in one portion of a game could and should be applied to a broader scope of the game to enable variety in play?

    Exactly how is it a "high horse" argument to say that narrowing your scope of end-game play options down to a single thing that only caters to a small percentage of any given game's audience bad design?

    And you missed the point yet again by trying to restate your own. Raiding is only the "most challenging aspect" because the developers dumped all their eggs in one basket, instead of offering equally challenging elements to other components of the game. Hence again the "bad design" argument as they have again only given players one venue to continue their progression in the game, that doesn't necessarily cater to the facets of the game they want to play.

    It's ironic that you can simultaneously state the problem, but completely miss the fact that such is a/the big problem there.

    It's painfully clear that you didn't read much of anything here and keep inserting your opinions over the actual argument. Truly disappointing. 
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,154
    well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol.  No shit they should get the best gear in the game.

    That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP.  Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid.  OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog.  Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
    alkarionlog
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,556
    edited June 7
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    The bottom line for me here is that MMORPG's which were all about grouping are now all about soloing. The one bastion of good group content that remains is raids. So removing that is an anathema to me. It is not as if you don't craft or quest before top level so they are not good enough as a replacement, indeed anything not group based is not good enough. I think you mentioned a small group option, or another poster did, I am all for that as long as it does not fully replace full raids. It might be the prelude to raiding, getting those who have soloed their entire time to top level "Raid ready".

    Go forth and raid young man!. :) 
    They weren't all above grouping though. Some games had more grouping than others. However several of the earliest games had soloing as a very viable  method of progressing. 
    Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
    AlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 2,927
    AAAMEOW said:
    well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol.  No shit they should get the best gear in the game.

    That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP.  Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid.  OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog.  Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
    i see you dont play much games


    the main reason raids have the best gear is simple if not no one would do the raids, save for the try hard raiders who love to work like a bot
    Kyleran
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    AAAMEOW said:
    well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol.  No shit they should get the best gear in the game.

    That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP.  Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid.  OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog.  Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
    If you compare this to a championship in a pro league like it was. A small percentage win a championship. But you can be a 3 year career player buried on the pine and win a championship.  On the other hand, you could also win a MVP, a large salary, all star appearances, endorsements, hall of fame status and etc and never win a championship. It is arguable what would be better. 

    Kind of the point that you could get the best solo gear for doing solo content.  You can get the best crafters and materials to work together to make legendary items.  You get 20 people to gather to raid and get the best armor that works in groups.  You could be explorer gets the best gear for travel.  
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    The bottom line for me here is that MMORPG's which were all about grouping are now all about soloing. The one bastion of good group content that remains is raids. So removing that is an anathema to me. It is not as if you don't craft or quest before top level so they are not good enough as a replacement, indeed anything not group based is not good enough. I think you mentioned a small group option, or another poster did, I am all for that as long as it does not fully replace full raids. It might be the prelude to raiding, getting those who have soloed their entire time to top level "Raid ready".

    Go forth and raid young man!. :) 
    They weren't all above grouping though. Some games had more grouping than others. However several of the earliest games had soloing as a very bubble method of progressing 
    Everquest was basically the only game with hardcore grouping.  Combat grouping is not the only way to make a social MMORPG.  It certainly is the most annoying way though.

    Ungood
  • UtinniUtinni Member RarePosts: 1,235
    This type of thinking is why we have LFR, M+, World Quests, Warfronts, PvP gear.

    So yea all this exists.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,149

    Kind of the point that you could get the best solo gear for doing solo content.  You can get the best crafters and materials to work together to make legendary items.  You get 20 people to gather to raid and get the best armor that works in groups.  You could be explorer gets the best gear for travel.  
    You could get the best gear for catching a butterfly with a net. You could get the best gear for balancing a ball on your nose. Or maybe get the best gear for cleaning your plate, even the lima beans. The possibilities are nearly endless!
    KyleranConstantineMerusAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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