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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Robokapp said:
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    Why can't everyone have their own type of top tier gear?

    Why can't single player or small group play be challenging and rewarding?
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    I think current raids are just poor game mechanics.  I always thought raids should be spontaneous.  Standing raids on repeat are something that should have died along time. 
    I think the content needs to fit the game. This is a core problem with a lot of games, where they will try to put in features, and design mechanics that don't' work well with the rest of their environment. 

    This also moves the player base, things that are fluid, intrinsic and natural to the game, when the content is in synergy it will get players to keep moving though the content.

    Case in point, in DDO, the whole game is Instanced Based Dungeons, and Raids are for all intents and purposes were simply Double Group Size Instance Based Dungeons, in that game. In doing this, Raids were thus the logical next-step in moving up in the content because they provided a more gandose encounter for the players.

    As such, it just went with the natural flow of the game, not to mention that Raids started at Mid Level as opposed to purely "End Game" as such it became more an inherent part of the game, something that was an integrated part of the game as opposed to this "Raids are a Private Club and you're not invited".

    Anyway.. each game needs to work it's vibe, Like for example, I could never imagine EQ or a game like WoW, not having raids, as they were a part of the games culture, at the same time, putting raids into GW2 was massive mistake.

    So it goes by the game, sme games like GW2, were far better games without raids, other games like DDO the raids were a integrated part of the whole system.

    I know.. I sound like a broken record, but often enough, it is not the raid itself, but the rest of the game that really sets how good or bad such a feature is.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,526
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.

    Group Crafting.

    Role #1: Blacksmith/Whitesmith/Weaponsmith/Armorer -- does the actual forging of the item

    Role #2: Enchanter -- handles the enchanting of the item as it is forged.

    Role #3: Soul Forger -- handles the imbuing of collected souls into the item as it is forged.

    Role #4: Assistant BS/WS/WS/AS Works the Bellows to keep the heat even and assists #1.

    Role #5: Supervisor -- helps whoever needs help, counters events.


    Mini-game encompasses all 5 players at the same time in an attempt to craft good->legendary items.


    AlBQuirky
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 503
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    I think current raids are just poor game mechanics.  I always thought raids should be spontaneous.  Standing raids on repeat are something that should have died along time. 
    I think the content needs to fit the game. This is a core problem with a lot of games, where they will try to put in features, and design mechanics that don't' work well with the rest of their environment. 

    This also moves the player base, things that are fluid, intrinsic and natural to the game, when the content is in synergy it will get players to keep moving though the content.

    Case in point, in DDO, the whole game is Instanced Based Dungeons, and Raids are for all intents and purposes were simply Double Group Size Instance Based Dungeons, in that game. In doing this, Raids were thus the logical next-step in moving up in the content because they provided a more gandose encounter for the players.

    As such, it just went with the natural flow of the game, not to mention that Raids started at Mid Level as opposed to purely "End Game" as such it became more an inherent part of the game, something that was an integrated part of the game as opposed to this "Raids are a Private Club and you're not invited".

    Anyway.. each game needs to work it's vibe, Like for example, I could never imagine EQ or a game like WoW, not having raids, as they were a part of the games culture, at the same time, putting raids into GW2 was massive mistake.

    So it goes by the game, sme games like GW2, were far better games without raids, other games like DDO the raids were a integrated part of the whole system.

    I know.. I sound like a broken record, but often enough, it is not the raid itself, but the rest of the game that really sets how good or bad such a feature is.
    I think the genre stuck to formula way too long is more what I mean.  Raids style is old.  20 years old.  Not much has changed but it being scripted and instanced.  

    I figured by 2019 we would have raids where boss minions make an announcement of their arrival in procedural quest. Left unchecked they raid a nearby town.  Players or guilds gather up and raid a dungeon.  Clear it out and kill the boss.  That boss is gone for good.  You have legendary drops and crafting materials from monsters to show.  


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    Your annoyance is based on rigidly locked point of view that you need a large group for challenging content. 
  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 707
    The gear acquired through raiding should only be acquired through it, no other way.  Same thing with PVP gear.  If a player is willing to invest the time to strive to get it, then they should be rewarded for it.  There should be other avenues for a player who doesn't enjoy raiding or PVP to acquire decent gear.

    I am NOT for making it more accessible to people that don't want to do it.  Instant gratification or making the game too open kills games.

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: World of Warcraft Classic, Stuff
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,149
    goboygo said:
    The best gear should always go to those who work the hardest period. Allowing people to make the best gear in game and simply sell it doesn't feel right to me.
    But you do not work hard to raid.  You complete tedious mind numbing grinds to raid and then run the same one over and over to get a rng chance at a drop you need.

    I enjoy raiding in certain games but once something is on farm then it is tedium and little more.  Gear should be available from a variety of tasks.  Raid gear is little more than a carrot to get you on to the next raid. 

    I think the definition of what work is has been lost.  If your arguement is that no one would raid if gear was available outside of raiding then I think that speaks about how much fun raiding really is more than anything
    High level raider and pvpr here. You’d have to be a fool or a wanna be who has not to think raiders don’t work hard, especially the high level (world ranked)ones.

    it May look like a mind numbing grind to those on the outside, but for those of us who have been on the inside, it’s damn near cutting edge scientific research and development. Rotation built and tweaked down the the millisecond with gear tweeked to the .01%. 

    No, Johny I. Wannahave exploring caves and and killing solo mobs should not be entitled to what we would recieve. That goes equally as much for us who highend pvp too. 
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,149
    edited June 2019
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
    IselinVermillion_RaventhalThane
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 247
    bcbully said:
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
     these is no risk, dude go back to your PVP fortnite or something
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,021
    Robokapp said:
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    Why can't everyone have their own type of top tier gear?

    Why can't single player or small group play be challenging and rewarding?
    Solo and small group play can be challenging and rewarding, it will just never be as challenging as large raids, so shouldn't be as rewarding.  Large raids are annoying to organize and getting 20 or 40 people together severely limits opportunity.  The rewards should reflect the challenge, effort, annoyance, and limits of the content.

    I think its the opposite for pvp.  World pvp with mass mobs doing nothing should have almost no reward, the 2v2 arena should have the best rewards.  As long as there is on going on-demand wvw pvp like in GW2 you can join with no effort, and win without helping.  

    I don't know why mmorpgs don't put more of an effort into allowing parallel but lesser tier gear progression for solo or small groups.  I think that's a fair way to reward all players per their effort level.

    I guess a system could be made where all content is as limited.  You get one shot at success per week, and doing it solo is near impossible and requires no mistakes, and it get slightly easier as you get more people, and raids become the easiest way to clear it.  In this case I would be fine with the solo clear getting the bets reward.  But of course this would lead to an extreme focus on balance of every class, until every class becomes so homogenized classes are just superficial choices or removed and I would probably not even want to try the game.  
      

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    I think current raids are just poor game mechanics.  I always thought raids should be spontaneous.  Standing raids on repeat are something that should have died along time. 
    I think the content needs to fit the game. This is a core problem with a lot of games, where they will try to put in features, and design mechanics that don't' work well with the rest of their environment. 

    This also moves the player base, things that are fluid, intrinsic and natural to the game, when the content is in synergy it will get players to keep moving though the content.

    Case in point, in DDO, the whole game is Instanced Based Dungeons, and Raids are for all intents and purposes were simply Double Group Size Instance Based Dungeons, in that game. In doing this, Raids were thus the logical next-step in moving up in the content because they provided a more gandose encounter for the players.

    As such, it just went with the natural flow of the game, not to mention that Raids started at Mid Level as opposed to purely "End Game" as such it became more an inherent part of the game, something that was an integrated part of the game as opposed to this "Raids are a Private Club and you're not invited".

    Anyway.. each game needs to work it's vibe, Like for example, I could never imagine EQ or a game like WoW, not having raids, as they were a part of the games culture, at the same time, putting raids into GW2 was massive mistake.

    So it goes by the game, sme games like GW2, were far better games without raids, other games like DDO the raids were a integrated part of the whole system.

    I know.. I sound like a broken record, but often enough, it is not the raid itself, but the rest of the game that really sets how good or bad such a feature is.
    I think the genre stuck to formula way too long is more what I mean.  Raids style is old.  20 years old.  Not much has changed but it being scripted and instanced.  

    I figured by 2019 we would have raids where boss minions make an announcement of their arrival in procedural quest. Left unchecked they raid a nearby town.  Players or guilds gather up and raid a dungeon.  Clear it out and kill the boss.  That boss is gone for good.  You have legendary drops and crafting materials from monsters to show.  


    Ya know.. for the right game.. this would be the epic shitz.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    bcbully said:
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
    Umm lets get something clear, you were never in any Risk, no matter how many times you lost, wiped, died, you never actually took a risk doing the raid, as you could always get back up and try again.

    So, really what we are talking about is, Time Investment, and if we are going to talk about a players time investment into the game, there is no viable reason not to reward a players solo time investment the same as players group time investment, in short, there is nothing special about raids that merits their increased rewards.

    There is only a delusion that they deserve such a place due to an archaic concept that gamers cling to, but there is no legitimate reason for them to offer any better reward in modern gaming than solo play offers.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,021
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
     if you put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content

    why do you need the best gear? 
    So that the reward matches my risk investment.
    Umm lets get something clear, you were never in any Risk, no matter how many times you lost, wiped, died, you never actually took a risk doing the raid, as you could always get back up and try again.

    So, really what we are talking about is, Time Investment, and if we are going to talk about a players time investment into the game, there is no viable reason not to reward a players solo time investment the same as players group time investment, in short, there is nothing special about raids that merits their increased rewards.

    There is only a delusion that they deserve such a place due to an archaic concept that gamers cling to, but there is no legitimate reason for them to offer any better reward in modern gaming than solo play offers.
    If this is true, why don't 100% of players do raids and reap all the great gear rewards?  I don't raid because it is a huge pain in the ass and hassle.  I love solo content because it isn't.

    Serious raiding sucks and is like an annoying job.  If it doesn't have the best rewards only a handful of masochists would engage in it.  

    I honestly have a hard time understanding how you could come to the conclusions above.  I've been getting shit for two-decades now for being a huge proponent of expanded solo play content in mmorpgs, and getting ruthlessly attacked for it (the old why play a multiplayer game if you want to play mostly solo, etc.) - I honestly never thought I'd see the day when I would have to defend the blatant and obvious fact that raiding is a huge annoying, difficult, pain-in-the-ass and raiders clearly deserve the best rewards.  

    Kyleranbcbully
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 2019
    B-
    Your entire argument has one major flaw, you failed to grasp the very simple statement that any element of gameplay that you perceive as challenging, has thus-far not been an element of gameplay unique to raids or that can only exist within a raid framework.

    Hence the "bad development" comment, because while that statement is hyperbolic, it was meant to highlight the point that the developers that choose to focus on raids as their primary/sole form of endgame, have consequently put all their eggs into one basket in one form of endgame that is not accounting for a large swathe of users.

    Your own example was itself just talking about more of the same. Instead of branching out it's just another dungeon to raid.

    It seems you simply have chosen indignation over understanding. Instead of acknowledging the point that the gameplay mechanics that makes something like a raid can be applied across a broad type of gaming experiences, you instead drum up a false argument about entitlement even though no one actually has argued such a position.

    Before you get indignant about something that's said, spend the time to read what other's write.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scot said:
    Limnic said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Raids themselves are just group dungeons. They just have extra gimmicks piled on.

    This cycles to my previous dialogue. The entirety of the game can have unique elements, gimmicks, and otherwise included in it to add "something new" to endgame.

    Crafting can be endgame content, if you apply the same principle as raids and add things like "legendary" craft tiers, challenges, and event activities.

    Personalized quests being done solo is not necessarily any more same to regular questing than raids are to running a group dungeon. If they add specialized events, unique mobs, and mechanics to learn and react to, it'd be the same type of improved challenge experience.

    Progressive gear, from the likes of DAoC, was not raid gear, and it is not beholden to doing "mini raids" (which is blurring the lines there on what a public dungeon is).

    Having something new and something different is certainly necessary. Raids are not the masters of that content in any manner, and are themselves actually quite derivative.
    As long as something good enough replaces it, this is the same argument as replacing tab combat. Action combat often has a zerg mindless feel and classes are made into all damage/tank/healers. So what we got as a replacement had real shortcomings. Same here but I am not tied to tab combat or raids, it just needs to be as good or better; not changed just because its old hat, solo players are complaining or its not enough like what players get in other genres.
    So do players need something new or not? That was your own comment I was plying off of there.
    Ungood
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,207
    Robokapp said:
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    Why can't everyone have their own type of top tier gear?

    Why can't single player or small group play be challenging and rewarding?
    it is. see: mythic+ invitational.

    image

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    I just felt the OP have something against generic themepark game which I don't think he play either way...

    So why keep bashing something he don't play...  Let it be.
    OGDeathRow
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 332
    edited June 2019
    In themepark games designed around vertical progress raiding is the natural summit of the pve food chain. :) It's easily controllable content to see who gets the best gear in such games, the bare minimum. But it lacks imagination in gameplay imo. Designing mechanics around instanced content, when you put best gear into an instance, you have kind of lost the idea what an mmo is imo.
    Iselin
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,056
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    Your annoyance is based on rigidly locked point of view that you need a large group for challenging content. 
    Would you play group content where it would take 3-5 hours to learn the patterns of the fight and where you would end up stuck on the final boss for a month due to dying somewhere around 100 times because someone else screwed up.

    People love to say that they want challenging content but the moment developers put in group content that takes actual devotion most people still don't play it.

    If you look for challenge in solo content you play the wrong genre of games.
    OGDeathRow
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Steelhelm said:
    Designing mechanics around instanced content, when you put best gear into an instance, you have kind of lost the idea what an mmo is imo.
    I agree with that. MMOs haven't leveraged multiplayer open world content the way they should have and instead have borrowed from other genres locking it into instanced content.

    Rift had the right idea with their zone wide events that needed a response from everyone in the zone to restore it to its pre invasion state. Their auto group raid formation by proximity to an event was also a nice step forward.

    But that was so many years ago now and no one else has really taken that idea and run with it.

    I don't see anything wrong with difficulty in MMOs being linked to the need to band together in large groups to deal with things you are not capable of dealing with solo or in small groups. It's actually what MMO difficulty should be all about.

    Instead they've taken the easy way out and manufactured canned instanced substitutes that are all about repetition and choreography.

    Raids and instanced dungeons to me have always felt like bits borrowed from some other genre. It's easy to follow the bouncing ball from FPS to instanced quickie PvP matches. Not so easy to make the connection to instanced dungeons and raids but they do feel alien in MMOs to me too.
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,023
    edited June 2019
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    The bottom line for me here is that MMORPG's which were all about grouping are now all about soloing. The one bastion of good group content that remains is raids. So removing that is an anathema to me. It is not as if you don't craft or quest before top level so they are not good enough as a replacement, indeed anything not group based is not good enough. I think you mentioned a small group option, or another poster did, I am all for that as long as it does not fully replace full raids. It might be the prelude to raiding, getting those who have soloed their entire time to top level "Raid ready".

    Go forth and raid young man!. :) 
    AlBQuirky

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,163
    edited June 2019
    Iselin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    Designing mechanics around instanced content, when you put best gear into an instance, you have kind of lost the idea what an mmo is imo.
    I

    Rift had the right idea with their zone wide events that needed a response from everyone in the zone to restore it to its pre invasion state. Their auto group raid formation by proximity to an event was also a nice step forward.

    But that was so many years ago now and no one else has really taken that idea and run with it.
    Remember Tabula Rasa? I never got to play, but as I recall its premise was pitting the entire player base against an online alien NPC invasion, a great concept which ended too soon perhaps.

    Also, Aion I think had a 3rd npc faction which acted independently in the PVP zone which players either battled or cooperated with to further their aims.

    In EVE there are npc pirate incursions which invade a particular region of space which negatively impact the productivity of various PVE activities.

    Players have to band together in coordinated fleets and defeat the pirates via a series of tiered battles culminating in a 100 plus fleet to beat the mothership.

    It was a semi brilliant piece of PVE work which CCP screwed up on as they so often do with their obsession for PVP.

    Incursion running really only appealed to hardcore PVEers, requiring players to train skills for many months and spend small fortunes to fit and fly the necessary ships.

    The battles required a degree of coordination and the smallest error could result in the fleet dying horribly with billions of ISK lost. 

    Like most content in EVE, incursions can be scanned down and invaded by others, so any group of ya hoos in a cheap throw away ship could invade, not to win the fight but just disrupt it enough to cause a wipe before dying themselves.  (EVEs full of people who's only real joy in life is spoiling other people's fun)

    The wardec mechanic also hurt, anytime players tried to form a corporation to run incursions (because forming corps is a fun part of MMOs) they'd find themselves as open targets.

    Worse, since incursions were often run with mixed fleets,  no fleet commander would ever let you join if your Corp was under a wardec....

    It really was PVE content I enjoyed, but the only reasonable way to do it was remain as an unaffiliated player and that was asking me to give up too much of the social part of EVE which I wasn't willing to do.



    Post edited by Kyleran on
    SteelhelmIselin

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    This has to be the most annoying topic. Why should you get the best gear in the game by soloing some low end content that takes 0 effort or focus? Why should the guys who put forth effort for hours, work to figure out how to defeat the hardest content in the game get the same piece of gear you get by yourself?

    The point of raid gear is for the people raiding, for the easier group content games have that, for the solo player they have that. Why does everyone have to have the best if THEY DONT NEED IT!
    I don't agree that "every group" figures out anything. The first raid group to defeat a boss figures it out. Maybe the next 2 or 3 groups, too. The rest just copy what worked. It doesn't always go smoothly, and many fail until they get coordinated enough. Where is effort here, other than working together better? It would be nice if there was other "hard PvE content" that non-raiders could enjoy. They don't need top end raid gear, like you pointed out, but nice gear of their own would be nice, don't you think?

    You're spot on for the last paragraph. Non-Raiders don't need top end raid gear. But is there other top end gear they can strive for, or chase?
    KyleranScot

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    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
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