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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,708
    I think LotR has a big role in this. A party is formed for an adventure, and they'd receive the highest reward in the end. That has become an extremely popular concept. So no wonder MMORPGs tried to do the same. And a small fellow-ship grew into a big raid, just like it did in the third book. 

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk. 
    MadFrenchie
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Currently Playing: Lords of the Fallen
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 4,024
    edited June 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Is this thread specifically related to Warcraft? I think it does not apply generally.

    I spent most of my time in MMORPGs where the best gear was not obtained via raiding (or raiding did not represent the most efficient way of getting the gear).

    In WoW in particular, I think it sort of makes sense. There are not that many types of endgame content and raiding is by far the best developed one, in my opinion. What would be the alternative for getting the best gear, pet battles? :)


    Come to think of it, how many MMORPGs released after WOW had larger scale raiding as part of their designs?

    Even Blizzard stepped back from it a bit after Vanilla.
    I have not played many MMOs released after WoW to be honest.

    Off the top of my head, I would say ArcheAge, Black Desert, not completely sure but I think ESO also has large scale raiding (?).

    EDIT: I remember in L2, there were raids of about 1000 people killing the main boss :). Those were the days.
    Kyleran
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,606
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    ConstantineMerus
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Kyleran said:
    Is this thread specifically related to Warcraft? I think it does not apply generally.

    I spent most of my time in MMORPGs where the best gear was not obtained via raiding (or raiding did not represent the most efficient way of getting the gear).

    In WoW in particular, I think it sort of makes sense. There are not that many types of endgame content and raiding is by far the best developed one, in my opinion. What would be the alternative for getting the best gear, pet battles? :)


    Come to think of it, how many MMORPGs released after WOW had larger scale raiding as part of their designs?

    Even Blizzard stepped back from it a bit after Vanilla.
    I have not played many MMOs released after WoW to be honest.

    Off the top of my head, I would say ArcheAge, Black Desert, not completely sure but I think ESO also has large scale raiding (?).

    EDIT: I remember in L2, there were raids of about 1000 people killing the main boss :). Those were the days.
    Those contested naval fights at Leviathan in Archeage used to be INCREDIBLE. Hell, even how all the factions would join forces to kill Kadum after fighting in Mistmerrow was pretty awesome as well.
    coretex666
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  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 93
    Ungood said:
    I am comfortable with the idea of gear being a gate for more challenging content in PvE. So if I do not want to engage in challenging content I do not need the gear for it, I need the gear for the content I enjoy doing.

    In my opinion, there has to be a player base of casual players and hardcore players alike and everybody should have something to do to everybody's interest and capability. To acquire the highest level of gear for most hardcore players is the carrot they need to stay interested. For casual players, at least in my experience, it is more important to socialize and to have a nice evening with friends in a dungeon or out in the world. So, in my opinion, for casual players who do not raid it is more important that the developers deliver them interesting content instead of making raids trivial for everybody and to basically gift bis gear. 
    The problem with this, is you have not given the casuals any motive to actually do the dungeon run, or worse, you have not given them any motive to do the dungeon run in your specific game.

    Worse yet, as a developer, the less control you have over what keeps them playing the game (IE: Social/Friends/Something other than the game itself) the more you are at the mercy of factors you can't do anything about. This puts you as a developer into a very precarious place as having no idea what you can do to keep these players around to play your dead end game, as opposed to some other game, that may or may not have better graphics or story.

    TL:DR: The less control and understanding you have to keep your players around, the worse your situation will be in the long run.
    What ? Have you even read what i wrote. Why should casuals not have any motivation to do dungeons ?. In dungeons drops gear, it might not be bis but why should it not be an upgrade ? 

    And last but not least, i consider myself casual and i enjoy doing things with friends. Imo that is the best motivation ever.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,600
    Kyleran said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Not a huge fan of how gear is handled in games anyways.

    I don't like it that a warrior with gear X has no chance against the dragon; whereas, a warrior with gear Y can WTFPWN the same dragon.  It is a silly mechanic on its face and if games would go back to realism as a starting point they'd come up with more interesting solutions.

    For example, in real life Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass with dime store nun chucks or with high end nun chucks but the high end ones would last longer, be less likely to break, and would be better balanced.  Compare with the silly idea that Bruce Lee can barely scratch you with the dime store models but can one shot you with the legendary nun chucks of St. Whack.  

    ^--- Read that again and realize how silly this is in games.  Somehow, Bruce Lee with dime store nun chucks takes 10 minutes to kill a small fox for hides.  IT. IS. SO. DUMB.

    So for me the whole gear progression problem starts with a bad premise - which is probably why the gameplay is so boring.  
    Not really the best analogy. Sharper swords are better than dull ones, foils work well against chainmail, useless against plate, better to bring the morningstar.

    Your results will vary depending on the fighting conditions and defenses of the opponent, so I don't feel games are totally wrong in their gear models, especially in a fantasy world.

    Taking it up a level,  flintlock rifle..or full auto AR15?

    Go with the latter if you ever find yourself up against Bruce.

    :D
    While I agree that @Wargfoot's analogy isn't particularly good, I've always thought that weapons made of different materials affect the damage produced by a weapon differently.  A 2"x1"x1" gash into the flesh hurts as much if the weapon is bronze, iron, steel or some fantasy metal.  The deadliness and damage done by that 2"x1"x1" gash depends entirely on where on the body that wound is located.  Materials only affect things like how well a blade holds an edge, how frequently a weapon will bend or break and weight of the weapon.

    Like you said, weapon forms and condition are important factors against specific armor types.  A dull knife will cut as deeply as a sharp knife; it just requires more force.  The same is true of bronze or iron swords.  The difference is how much force is needed to wield the blade.  Obsidian (flint) blades are the sharpest known blades (prior to modern technology), but they break easily.

    All RPG games use the same fallacy, so it has become a standard in games.  It is easily covered by an application of 'Suspension of Disbelief' that all fiction asks.  Just because it's accepted, doesn't make it true.



    AlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Raids themselves are just group dungeons. They just have extra gimmicks piled on.

    This cycles to my previous dialogue. The entirety of the game can have unique elements, gimmicks, and otherwise included in it to add "something new" to endgame.

    Crafting can be endgame content, if you apply the same principle as raids and add things like "legendary" craft tiers, challenges, and event activities.

    Personalized quests being done solo is not necessarily any more same to regular questing than raids are to running a group dungeon. If they add specialized events, unique mobs, and mechanics to learn and react to, it'd be the same type of improved challenge experience.

    Progressive gear, from the likes of DAoC, was not raid gear, and it is not beholden to doing "mini raids" (which is blurring the lines there on what a public dungeon is).

    Having something new and something different is certainly necessary. Raids are not the masters of that content in any manner, and are themselves actually quite derivative.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Are MMORPG your only outlet to be special or something and maintain elitism of raids make ensures it stays that way?

    No. I am not special, and I am not "elite." 

    No, in almost all games, and at almost all times, I have been a casual player. I raided in a couple of games for a time. Enough time to appreciate what an effort it takes. And to respect the efforts made by others much better and more dedicated to raiding than myself.

    Now let's "flip your question." Are you so hopelessly insecure that if you can't have the very best gear in every game (handed to you if necessary) you just can't enjoy yourself? You run around soloing while gnashing your teeth that someone else joined a raid team and earned some raid level gear? 

    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    The point of raid drops is that its far from a guarantee and it makes people show up so you can do a place more than once. Given that progression raiding can cause fatigue lots of people also enjoy switching between progression and more casual loot raids.

    When it comes to drops, it took me six months to get a huge weapon upgrade in vanilla, I remember all the stuff about sulfuras and thunderfury that our group got. Back then loot actually meant something and people were happy about others getting cool stuff. That changed, in wotlk you basically entered raids with a shopping list of things you wanted and every week you get 3-4 epics. With epics being so common it killed the sense of reward of getting those items.

    The reason its unique is because people will go for the path of lowest resistance and it would diminish the "value" of said items. 
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,990
    Amathe said:
    4.  Begging. Beggers stand around in town for hours and hours on end. "Plat plz?" It's work, right? And very challenging as most people tell them to F off.  It's probably not easy to be an effective begger. Why not give them raid level gear for their begging efforts. They're in town more than anybody else. If gear is for showing off in town, arguably they need it most so they have something to show. And it's a form of solo play, no? You may think I am being sarcastic, but really I don't see this as being too far from what the OP proposes. Best in slot gear for everyone. You can't leave the beggers out now, can you? They paid to play the game, same as everyone else.
    Satire aside, That would be classified as 1) Crafted.

    They either beg for the money and buy the gear from a crafter, or beg the crafter directly.. either way is fine, but the end result is the same, they would get the gear from a Crafter.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 129
    Limnic said:
    You could shorten your response to saying you just think the devs are bad at game development then, as that would fall into the latter category of leveraging elements that could be applied to a much broader scope of the game.

    EDIT: For clarification.

    Nothing done in a raid can be done without those things being coded into the game. That much should be a given.

    By that token, any element of a raid that you perceive to be of a higher standard than the rest of the gameplay or user experience, that was a choice of the developer to neglect the rest of the game to focus on only delivering that content through raids, even though those very same mechanics, challenges, and standards could be applied elsewhere.

    Especially so if they are already scripted into the game.

    IE, if a raid contains "alot higher standard of gameplay" than the rest of the game, then it was a choice on the developer's part to neglect the rest of the user experience that could (and should) have been just as high of a standard.

    The only real counterargument to leverage here is development budget. As prior mentioned, one of the biggest reason raids are still a thing mostly has to do with the fact that you can build a self-contained experience with it and milk the same gameplay loop more than if tried to pan that same amount of time and money into developing more content of almost any other variety. It's not the difficulty or whether or not they're popular, it's that they are the most economic form of endgame content.

    I remember that being a framing statement of some old interview from a WoW dev, talking about comparing the cost of developing everything else to how many raids they could produce with the same budget.
    Bad development? Come on........ my response wasnt saying that at all. Your horse maybe a tad to high good sir/lady (not sure) early game is about honing your skills, raiding is putting them to the test. What would happen if dungeons took on extreme raid mechanics? Then all the entitled would be crying dungeons are too hard. Oh wait, they did in WOW, mythic +. To me thats great development, they have skill level for everyone. But not everyone can play in all skill levels.
    Why wouldnt end game content be harder? Why would they wanna bog down early levels with extreme situations? Raiding is ment to be more challenging. 

    An example was in legion they entered into the Mage tower, a solo raid for unique artifacts. You know how many people got those? The same people who raided......not many people completed it till the LFR gear was way more then needed to complete it, not when it was current. Wanna know why it happened like that? Cause raiders were buffing food, flasks, challenging the fights over and over again where others threw there hands up. So even when given the chance to obtain "unique" pieces there was a uproar about that too.

    These old school WoW posters talkin about how great classic was, that as a WAYYY harder treadmill then now. So should WoW classic be gifting raid gear too? 

    Theres nothing wrong with trying to bestow a lengthy progression to strength. It keeps players playing. You can love a game to death, but if your sitting at max, of everything and anything.....you probably dont log in anymore. So what does games like WoW do? They give that OPTION to constantly grow in power.....this is a optional part of the game. 

    This is a thread full of entitled people, that cry about elitism, good laugh. Pot and kettle?

    To clarify, im not a high end raider, wish i was that good but im not. Im silver 1/Gold 4 in league of legends. Im average at best in gaming (Except dark souls, good at that!) Maybe people should learn to be happy for those have when they worked for it. Instead of preaching unfair.....
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,606
    edited June 2019
    Limnic said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Raids themselves are just group dungeons. They just have extra gimmicks piled on.

    This cycles to my previous dialogue. The entirety of the game can have unique elements, gimmicks, and otherwise included in it to add "something new" to endgame.

    Crafting can be endgame content, if you apply the same principle as raids and add things like "legendary" craft tiers, challenges, and event activities.

    Personalized quests being done solo is not necessarily any more same to regular questing than raids are to running a group dungeon. If they add specialized events, unique mobs, and mechanics to learn and react to, it'd be the same type of improved challenge experience.

    Progressive gear, from the likes of DAoC, was not raid gear, and it is not beholden to doing "mini raids" (which is blurring the lines there on what a public dungeon is).

    Having something new and something different is certainly necessary. Raids are not the masters of that content in any manner, and are themselves actually quite derivative.
    As long as something good enough replaces it, this is the same argument as replacing tab combat. Action combat often has a zerg mindless feel and classes are made into all damage/tank/healers. So what we got as a replacement had real shortcomings. Same here but I am not tied to tab combat or raids, it just needs to be as good or better; not changed just because its old hat, solo players are complaining or its not enough like what players get in other genres.
    AlBQuirky
  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 129
    kjempff said:
    I don't want to do what it takes, but it is unfair that those who will are rewarded. The world revolve around me, and I am entitled to the best, but without effort ... this is so unfair /pout - I just want it my way. Excuse me now I am going to take a picture of myself and put it on some "social" media so people can see what an awesome life i (pretend) to have.
    It's a game.  You are over there eating virtual caviar and sipping e-champagne talking about peasants in a video game like anyone truly cares.  Go ask some stranger in real life why players should have to earn the best gears in raids as if you are talking welfare or starving children.
    Yes its a game, but putting your best foot forward when attempting anything you do in life says alot about your character.......likewise when you dont......being rewarded for lack of effort is just stupid. Do you deserve a raise at your job if you only put in so much effort or the guy beside you who is busting his balls ? 

    Dont use the arguement its diffrent cause work is real life, guess what, reread my first sentence...
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,990
    Ungood said:
    I am comfortable with the idea of gear being a gate for more challenging content in PvE. So if I do not want to engage in challenging content I do not need the gear for it, I need the gear for the content I enjoy doing.

    In my opinion, there has to be a player base of casual players and hardcore players alike and everybody should have something to do to everybody's interest and capability. To acquire the highest level of gear for most hardcore players is the carrot they need to stay interested. For casual players, at least in my experience, it is more important to socialize and to have a nice evening with friends in a dungeon or out in the world. So, in my opinion, for casual players who do not raid it is more important that the developers deliver them interesting content instead of making raids trivial for everybody and to basically gift bis gear. 
    The problem with this, is you have not given the casuals any motive to actually do the dungeon run, or worse, you have not given them any motive to do the dungeon run in your specific game.

    Worse yet, as a developer, the less control you have over what keeps them playing the game (IE: Social/Friends/Something other than the game itself) the more you are at the mercy of factors you can't do anything about. This puts you as a developer into a very precarious place as having no idea what you can do to keep these players around to play your dead end game, as opposed to some other game, that may or may not have better graphics or story.

    TL:DR: The less control and understanding you have to keep your players around, the worse your situation will be in the long run.
    What ? Have you even read what i wrote. Why should casuals not have any motivation to do dungeons ?. In dungeons drops gear, it might not be bis but why should it not be an upgrade ? 

    And last but not least, i consider myself casual and i enjoy doing things with friends. Imo that is the best motivation ever.
    See.. this is a prime example of why non-casuals really should not be trying to think what attracts casuals, even if they claim they are casuals. Really, the bias shines through.

    Let me ask you a question, why should anyone care about a gear treadmill if the best they will ever get is second class scrub gear ?

    As for playing with friends.. ok.. and if one of their friends leaves the game because they found some other game that they think is more fun... all the others follow. Because the game itself, is irrelevant, they are just screwing around with friends.

    Sure, a player might not have the foresight, or even care to see the very real problem with that system, but the developers and the people looking to make their bills this month from a game, that is a very big concern.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    edited June 2019
    Amathe said:
    Are MMORPG your only outlet to be special or something and maintain elitism of raids make ensures it stays that way?

    No. I am not special, and I am not "elite." 

    No, in almost all games, and at almost all times, I have been a casual player. I raided in a couple of games for a time. Enough time to appreciate what an effort it takes. And to respect the efforts made by others much better and more dedicated to raiding than myself.

    Now let's "flip your question." Are you so hopelessly insecure that if you can't have the very best gear in every game (handed to you if necessary) you just can't enjoy yourself? You run around soloing while gnashing your teeth that someone else joined a raid team and earned some raid level gear? 

    It means nothing to me.  I am asking for rewards for all forms of play not exclusionary desires like you have. So if you want or anyone want to do tedious raids and repeat the same content over and over go for it.  It feels more like you know people won't play something not fun if not rewarded more than anything thing else. Might be true but sad.

    I would love for challenging 1-4 man legendary quest and things of that sort. I play for fun and socialize on my terms. Takes nothing away from raids.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,178
    edited June 2019
    Think of it in the terms of American football. 

    Tens of thousands play it at all sorts of levels, from intramural flag football, youth leagues, high school, college, and professional levels.

    Only one team gets to proudly wear the Superbowl Winners ring each year.

    Raiding in MMORPGs is a lot like that, not everyone should get the priviledge to wear the ring.

    ;)
    AmatheConstantineMerus[Deleted User]AlBQuirky

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,990
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    Vermillion_Raventhal
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Kyleran said:
    Think of it in the terms of American Z. 

    Tens of thousands play it at all sorts of levels, from intramural flag football, youth leagues, high school, college, and professional levels.

    Only one team gets to proudly wear the Superbowl Winners ring each year.

    Raiding in MMORPGs is a lot like that, not everyone should get the priviledge to wear the ring.

    ;)
    I would say it's more akin to saying that all other sports shouldn't have champions because they don't want to put their bodies into small car wreck like collisions for a living like football.  



  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,849
    Kyleran said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Not a huge fan of how gear is handled in games anyways.

    I don't like it that a warrior with gear X has no chance against the dragon; whereas, a warrior with gear Y can WTFPWN the same dragon.  It is a silly mechanic on its face and if games would go back to realism as a starting point they'd come up with more interesting solutions.

    For example, in real life Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass with dime store nun chucks or with high end nun chucks but the high end ones would last longer, be less likely to break, and would be better balanced.  Compare with the silly idea that Bruce Lee can barely scratch you with the dime store models but can one shot you with the legendary nun chucks of St. Whack.  

    ^--- Read that again and realize how silly this is in games.  Somehow, Bruce Lee with dime store nun chucks takes 10 minutes to kill a small fox for hides.  IT. IS. SO. DUMB.

    So for me the whole gear progression problem starts with a bad premise - which is probably why the gameplay is so boring.  
    Not really the best analogy. Sharper swords are better than dull ones, foils work well against chainmail, useless against plate, better to bring the morningstar.

    Your results will vary depending on the fighting conditions and defenses of the opponent, so I don't feel games are totally wrong in their gear models, especially in a fantasy world.

    Taking it up a level,  flintlock rifle..or full auto AR15?

    Go with the latter if you ever find yourself up against Bruce.

    :D
    Sharper swords can make a small positive difference in the hands of someone who is already good at fighting with swords. A klutz will just cut himself or his buddy standing next to him more with it :)

    Honestly I think the gear makes you better obsession we see in RPGs is just taking the original Arthur and Excalibur myth to ridiculous extremes.

    I agree with @Wargfoot: It's gotten out of hand and is way over the top in most games.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    I think current raids are just poor game mechanics.  I always thought raids should be spontaneous.  Standing raids on repeat are something that should have died along time. 
    Ungood
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,178
    edited June 2019
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    Crafting is not an 'end game' gameplay, unless you can spruce it up a lot not sure what the appeal would be.

    Personalised quests seem interesting but if they can be done solo they are no different from normal questing so not really end game.

    Progressive gear can stand in but we used to do mini raids for that, so back to raids.

    You really need something new, something players have not done before. They likely have crafted and quested to get to top level, something different is needed.
    Well let's get a few things clear.

    It seems 90+% of a games population does not see the appeal of running the same limited number of "Raids" every week in a tedious grind fest all the while flopping around their e-peen about it. So let's not apply some personal "feels" of what we think is worthy to replace it.

    With that said.

    Each of things I listed, Crafting, Journeys, and Progressive Gear, are systems that games have already used, and quite successfully I might add.

    Hence why I could very easy list all 3 of them right off the top of my head, I have seen them all in action (I even listed the games that used them) and I have seen them be very, very, successful and attractive to the player population, far more than Raids have been. 
    I think current raids are just poor game mechanics.  I always thought raids should be spontaneous.  Standing raids on repeat are something that should have died along time. 
    In the spirit of full disclosure I no longer raid so unless a game provides alternate forms of continual progression besides BIS raid gear I likely won't be giving it a look.
    Ungood

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  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,122
    I hate raiding.  Do I do it?  Once in a while.  But I still think participation trophy gear is a really bad idea.  Making games more childish and sophomoric is a really bad idea.  

    I don't even like honor grind pvp systems for gear.  The best gear should go to the best pvp players.

    If I'd argue anything about raids, I'd argue make the gear more restrictive.  Only have the top tier for the raiders pushing boundaries and clearing content first.  Everyone else competes for tier two gear.  Then change up the raid and boss strategies, make it harder, and give top tier to the first clearers again.

    I'm a huge fan of tournament theory.  I am not one of those freakishly good pvpers, and I will never be dedicated enough to be in a world first guild  - so I will never have the best gear myself.  But I will always be drawn towards challenging games that reward extreme effort and actual notable and impressive feats, and not the once that celebrate baddies and mediocrity with the best gear for logging in or showing up.

    Wildstar had some ridiculously insanely hard raids you really needed high skill not to die immediately over and over with a big sign pointing out for all to see what a baddie you truly are.  I know most people hated Wildstar and its raids that required actual skill and huge effort, but that is the direction I thinks games should go.  If the guilds successfully completing those raids didn't deserve better gear than the rest of us plebs, I don't know who does.  I salute my proven betters, I don't think I should get the gear they earned just for logging in to a game and showing up. 

    I also don't think games should remove the content that requires effort as well as blood, sweat, and tears (and putting up with huge amounts of awful and annoyance).
    bcbully
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,236
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,122
    Robokapp said:
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    I'm against this too.  PVPers need better gear, and I'd 100% be for an alternate to raiding content that also has gear progression, just not near the level of raiding gear.  It should equal the effort, difficulty, and annoyance of the content.  

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Robokapp said:
    non-raiders dont need gear because gear is used to support a raiding path further.
    Why can't everyone have their own type of top tier gear?

    Why can't single player or small group play be challenging and rewarding?
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