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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 124
    Limnic said:
    Just a quick note, things like coordination, reaction time, and memory testing are all components of play predicated on the core mechanics of any given game.

    IE; 
    If the core gameplay does not support it, then raids cannot possess it.
    If the core gameplay does support it, then it is not an element beholden to raids.

    Trying to sell raids on the idea that they have a higher standard of gameplay than the rest of the game is in general either an indicator that the argument is disingenuous, or that the game design itself is fundamentally flawed as the developers are not leveraging the depth of their game's design in the full breadth of it's potential user experience.
    Unfortunatly im not the sharpest knife in the drawer (Imma butterknife  :'( ) So I might not fully understand your reply. Raids do have alot higher standard of gameplay, its far more unforgiving and requires a great deal of focus.

    But those exact things are skills. Valuable skills. Id say all these top tier raiders have very well developed minds. These skills are not limited to just gaming, reaction time is a major element in boxing, you lack a simple "video game" skill your toast in the ring. Im not sure you understand my argue point there, raids are hard, they take intelligence to a great degree, and fortitude. 

    Participation rewards are always nice (aka welfare epics they get called in WoW) but the real rewards goto the hardest working, its not a job for most people. Shouldnt have to be a job to put extra work in. But I fully support the idea of always rewarding the hardest working people. Might inspire them to work harder in other areas of there life, that stuff isnt equal, your not just handed the best of the best, you want it, come take it.
    KyleranTorvalalkarionlogGdemami
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 6
    You could shorten your response to saying you just think the devs are bad at game development then, as that would fall into the latter category of leveraging elements that could be applied to a much broader scope of the game.

    EDIT: For clarification.

    Nothing done in a raid can be done without those things being coded into the game. That much should be a given.

    By that token, any element of a raid that you perceive to be of a higher standard than the rest of the gameplay or user experience, that was a choice of the developer to neglect the rest of the game to focus on only delivering that content through raids, even though those very same mechanics, challenges, and standards could be applied elsewhere.

    Especially so if they are already scripted into the game.

    IE, if a raid contains "alot higher standard of gameplay" than the rest of the game, then it was a choice on the developer's part to neglect the rest of the user experience that could (and should) have been just as high of a standard.

    The only real counterargument to leverage here is development budget. As prior mentioned, one of the biggest reason raids are still a thing mostly has to do with the fact that you can build a self-contained experience with it and milk the same gameplay loop more than if tried to pan that same amount of time and money into developing more content of almost any other variety. It's not the difficulty or whether or not they're popular, it's that they are the most economic form of endgame content.

    I remember that being a framing statement of some old interview from a WoW dev, talking about comparing the cost of developing everything else to how many raids they could produce with the same budget.
    HatefullUngoodGdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    If you don't raid, why do you need raid gear?
    You can flip this question and ask what harm is them having raid gear if they aren't raiding?  Why can't single player content be challenging as well?  Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest? 

    At the end of the day it is elitism.  Raiders could be happy with unique gear.

    gunklackerUngood
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,161
    edited June 6
    If you don't raid, why do you need raid gear?
    You can flip this question and ask what harm is them having raid gear if they aren't raiding?  Why can't single player content be challenging as well?  Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest? 

    At the end of the day it is elitism.  Raiders could be happy with unique gear.

    I think it is because most raider completed all the other content.  So make sense the content people haven't done yet give better drop.

    Raid progress are usually capped because you can only do 1 in a week.  But for the other content people exhausted it too fast.  Many games try to bypass that problem by adding endgame gear to dailys.  

    Me personally I only want raid gear so I can do harder raid.  I have no idea why people want shiny gear just to sit in town.
  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 93
    I am comfortable with the idea of gear being a gate for more challenging content in PvE. So if I do not want to engage in challenging content I do not need the gear for it, I need the gear for the content I enjoy doing.

    In my opinion, there has to be a player base of casual players and hardcore players alike and everybody should have something to do to everybody's interest and capability. To acquire the highest level of gear for most hardcore players is the carrot they need to stay interested. For casual players, at least in my experience, it is more important to socialize and to have a nice evening with friends in a dungeon or out in the world. So, in my opinion, for casual players who do not raid it is more important that the developers deliver them interesting content instead of making raids trivial for everybody and to basically gift bis gear. 

    When it comes to PvP I think it is horrible if you have to raid so that you can get bis gear that you need for PvP. One should never be forced to do PvE to be able to compete in PvP. PvE gear and PvP gear should be strictly separated.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,013
    I want hard mode dungeon gear without doing hard dungeons and I want hard mode raid gear without doing hard mode raiding. I want PvP gear without doing PvP and crafting stuff without doing crafting. I want quest gear just by grinding monsters. I also want cash shop gear to drop doing the easiest content that takes zero effort to do. I also want a great looking body without doing workout and payment without showing up to work.

    The reason to have exclusive rewards is because it triggers you to do stuff you normally would be too lazy to do. If we were left to our own devices we would just lie down, take recreational drugs and wasting our lives doing nothing.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    That was a good parody of an out of touch hyperbolic argument which bears little to no reality to the subject of actual discussion.
    Ungood
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,481
    If you don't raid, why do you need raid gear?

    Actually it is kind of odd that raid gear is the best gear for soloing or grouping.  What if good gear looked like:

    Solo: 65 damage weapon, +5 to some skill used by your class.

    Group: 65 damage weapon, +5 damage for all people in your group.

    Raid: 65 damage weapon, +3% critical for people in your group or raid.

    In essence the damage is the same but the scope varies.




  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,583
    Why do players even need "raid gear", or any specialized gear? Why doesn't armor/weapons work for anyone? Why are there even distinctions?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,147
    edited June 6
    I think ESO has handled top end gearing better than most. Their whole approach is based on gear set bonuses that is very similar to the way Diablo 3 sets work, if you know that system. But they've gone way beyond what D3 offers which is basically 4 sets per class. ESO has literally hundreds of sets.

    Some are crafted with some crafted sets only becoming craftable once you have leveled the crafting to the top, some are PvP drops only, some are dungeon drops, some are specific zone drops and some are raid drops. And the bonuses of the raid drops and PvP drops give specific advantages for that type of game play and are not BIS anywhere else.

    Additionally they kept crafting relevant throughout by giving crafters the ability to improve the quality level of those drops. Gear quality in ESO follows the standard MMO white > green > blue > purple > gold scheme. Gold quality drops are extremely, extremely rare. That's where crafters come in. They can take any item that dropped from any source and improve their quality all the way from white to gold.

    It's not a perfect system and there are some cases where the system falls apart (e.g. PvPers still want to use the unique 2-item monster mask and shoulder sets that can only be obtained by running specific dungeons in veteran mode) but like I said, it's a much better system than most.
    TorvalAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,524
    At the end of the day I prefer MMOs like EVE where gear is basically neutral, anyone can fly or fit anything if they have the skills trained to use it.

    I have the skills trained to fly hulls which give the appearance of being an elite PVPer, however one look at my killboards will quickly disperse that illusion.  ;)

    I also can fly elite mining, exploration,  pirate faction and wormhole ships, and in those activities my achievements have been more successful.

    About the only elite gear EVE has are special ship hulls given as a reward for winning the annual tournament,  but being they are so rare and valuable seldom does anyone actually undock them except in the safest of circumstances, if ever.



    AlBQuirkySteelhelm

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,173
    edited June 6
     Why can't single player content be challenging as well?  Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest? 

    And there it is. OP is an advocate for solo play being rewarded at the same level as raiding. He has made a dozen or more threads on that topic (or injected that idea into existing threads). It isn't hard to see how mmorpg gaming got reduced to cash shops. Sad, really. 
    Post edited by Amathe on
    KyleranGdemami

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    I am comfortable with the idea of gear being a gate for more challenging content in PvE. So if I do not want to engage in challenging content I do not need the gear for it, I need the gear for the content I enjoy doing.

    In my opinion, there has to be a player base of casual players and hardcore players alike and everybody should have something to do to everybody's interest and capability. To acquire the highest level of gear for most hardcore players is the carrot they need to stay interested. For casual players, at least in my experience, it is more important to socialize and to have a nice evening with friends in a dungeon or out in the world. So, in my opinion, for casual players who do not raid it is more important that the developers deliver them interesting content instead of making raids trivial for everybody and to basically gift bis gear. 
    The problem with this, is you have not given the casuals any motive to actually do the dungeon run, or worse, you have not given them any motive to do the dungeon run in your specific game.

    Worse yet, as a developer, the less control you have over what keeps them playing the game (IE: Social/Friends/Something other than the game itself) the more you are at the mercy of factors you can't do anything about. This puts you as a developer into a very precarious place as having no idea what you can do to keep these players around to play your dead end game, as opposed to some other game, that may or may not have better graphics or story.

    TL:DR: The less control and understanding you have to keep your players around, the worse your situation will be in the long run.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,203
    edited June 6
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    AlBQuirkyesc-joconnor

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    Unless you have another activity to get top level gear better than raiding then raiding should have the best gear. There will be a need to separate PvE and PvP gear, I have found MMOs which to not follow that rule find players (as always, not hard to predict) take the perceived easiest route.
    I can think of 3 ways to get top level gear that are better than Raiding, that have been put into games, which I thought were really great ideas.

    1: Crafting. The best gear is made by players, just that simple. (A few games have this)

    2: Personalized Quests: GW2 had a system called a "Legendary Journey" which was mainly a solo / small group quest system, this is should have been the standard by which all Legendary or top tier items are acquired. Far better than Raids, as this has the player span the game world for their item on their journey as opposed to just grinding out some weekly raid, that becomes easier and easier with repetition.

    3: Progressive Gear. Simply put, gear that levels with you. DDO has something called sentient weapons, which you feed your other rare drop weapons to, that you no longer need, and this makes the Sentient Weapon stronger, making it, potentially, the most powerful weapon in the game.

    Seen all 3 of them, dabbled in all 3 of them. Thought each idea had great merit, and worked for the games they were in.
    AlBQuirkyScot
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,173
    edited June 6
    4.  Begging. Beggers stand around in town for hours and hours on end. "Plat plz?" It's work, right? And very challenging as most people tell them to F off.  It's probably not easy to be an effective begger. Why not give them raid level gear for their begging efforts. They're in town more than anybody else. If gear is for showing off in town, arguably they need it most so they have something to show. And it's a form of solo play, no? You may think I am being sarcastic, but really I don't see this as being too far from what the OP proposes. Best in slot gear for everyone. You can't leave the beggers out now, can you? They paid to play the game, same as everyone else.
    KyleranScotAlBQuirkyesc-joconnor

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,635
    I don't want to do what it takes, but it is unfair that those who will are rewarded. The world revolve around me, and I am entitled to the best, but without effort ... this is so unfair /pout - I just want it my way. Excuse me now I am going to take a picture of myself and put it on some "social" media so people can see what an awesome life i (pretend) to have.
    AmatheAlBQuirky
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,799
    Shaigh said:
    I want hard mode dungeon gear without doing hard dungeons and I want hard mode raid gear without doing hard mode raiding. I want PvP gear without doing PvP and crafting stuff without doing crafting. I want quest gear just by grinding monsters. I also want cash shop gear to drop doing the easiest content that takes zero effort to do. I also want a great looking body without doing workout and payment without showing up to work.

    The reason to have exclusive rewards is because it triggers you to do stuff you normally would be too lazy to do. If we were left to our own devices we would just lie down, take recreational drugs and wasting our lives doing nothing.
    Holy crap man, playing a MMO is already about as close to "doing nothing" as you can get without actually lying down and waiting to die.  Also, I hate to tell you this but playing a MMO is a huge waste of your time no matter how you get the best gear in the game.

    The important point here as that when people waste time on entertainment they...you know, want to be entertained.  They want to enjoy what they are doing.

    I think a big part of the problem that has caused the decline of MMOs is that developers forgot that people need to actually like what they are doing when they play a game.  Games need to be enjoyable.  

    Devs have put so much effort into gimmicks to suck money out of people and relying on "getting that next reward" to get people to endure crappy gameplay that they seem to have forgotten the importance of making a game fun or at least somewhat enjoyable.

    Devs also have this thing where they try to get people with different preferences to all play the same game.  So they try to cram all these different playstyles into one game to please group x, group y, and group z all at the same time.  Of course this is impossible and leads to lots of bitching and bickering much like what has been happening in this thread.

    It would be better to focus on one type of play style and make the best game possible for that demographic instead of trying to cobble together several different types of game play in one game.  But even when devs acknowledge this and say they want to do it....they don't.  They always fall prey to the lure of trying to draw in more people so they inevitably try to please multiple demographics with one game.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Amathe said:
     Why can't single player content be challenging as well?  Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest? 

    And there it is. OP is an advocate for solo play being rewarded at the same level as raiding. He has made a dozen or more threads on that topic (or injected that idea into existing threads). It isn't hard to see how mmorpg gaming got reduced to cash shops. Sad, really. 
    Why not?  If developers made dark soul challenging content why shouldn't single and small group play be rewarded. 

    Cash shops came about by shallow vertical themeparks being unable to maintain subs. They all had raiding practically. Nobody participated because most don't feel like being bored waiting to loop the same content over and over. Wasn't until they got rid of the tedium it may be somewhat done.  Grind and power  some of the easiest things to monetize in a cash shop.  

    Yes, we can see your "blood, tears and sweat" doing raids has made you emotion on the subject but as I said nobody cares.  Nobody is owed anything in a game.  Let alone the dumb repeat raid style.  

    Gdemami
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,173
    edited June 6
    Amathe said:

     why shouldn't single and small group play be rewarded.








    [Amathe] This is a false argument. Single and small group play is rewarded, and has been in every game I have ever played. You want raid level rewards for that type of play. So maybe stop misrepresenting your position?

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    kjempff said:
    I don't want to do what it takes, but it is unfair that those who will are rewarded. The world revolve around me, and I am entitled to the best, but without effort ... this is so unfair /pout - I just want it my way. Excuse me now I am going to take a picture of myself and put it on some "social" media so people can see what an awesome life i (pretend) to have.
    It's a game.  You are over there eating virtual caviar and sipping e-champagne talking about peasants in a video game like anyone truly cares.  Go ask some stranger in real life why players should have to earn the best gears in raids as if you are talking welfare or starving children.
    Gdemami
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 2,935
    If you don't raid, why do you need raid gear?
    You can flip this question and ask what harm is them having raid gear if they aren't raiding?  Why can't single player content be challenging as well?  Why can't a player get some gear for exploring an every place or completing very quest? 

    At the end of the day it is elitism.  Raiders could be happy with unique gear.

    even funnier is IF there is another way to get the same lvl of gear without a raid, raid players will cry and complain saying it unfair, since the best should be get only from raids, most is because they can't control the flux and try to get money from it, if there was another source, even if it would take more work, most people would choose so and forget raids, since its annoying a hell
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

     why shouldn't single and small group play be rewarded.








    [Amathe] This is a false argument. Single and small group play is rewarded, and has been in every game I have ever played. You want raid level rewards for that type of play. So maybe stop misrepresenting your position?

    Again. this post is about why should raid or best gear be locked behind raids only.  Your reply was "I walked up the hill of tedium to play bad mechanics over and over.  You are not entitled. Don't try to be entitled to have other game play rewarded the same.  I am entitled because I walked up a hill."

    You have never answered why a crafter who completed his challenge not be able to make the best gear as well.  Why can't completionist who grind out their challenge get the best gear as well.  Why can't single players face challenges and earn best gear rewards. Not the same rewards but their own path.

    You have a shallow game if the only way your players interact is through grouped combat.  UO and SWG are solo friendly but have way better communities than most themeparks.

    Are MMORPG your only outlet to be special or something and maintain elitism of raids make ensures it stays that way?


    Gdemami
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,161
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

     why shouldn't single and small group play be rewarded.








    [Amathe] This is a false argument. Single and small group play is rewarded, and has been in every game I have ever played. You want raid level rewards for that type of play. So maybe stop misrepresenting your position?

    Again. this post is about why should raid or best gear be locked behind raids only.  Your reply was "I walked up the hill of tedium to play bad mechanics over and over.  You are not entitled. Don't try to be entitled to have other game play rewarded the same.  I am entitled because I walked up a hill."

    You have never answered why a crafter who completed his challenge not be able to make the best gear as well.  Why can't completionist who grind out their challenge get the best gear as well.  Why can't single players face challenges and earn best gear rewards. Not the same rewards but their own path.

    You have a shallow game if the only way your players interact is through grouped combat.  UO and SWG are solo friendly but have way better communities than most themeparks.

    Are MMORPG your only outlet to be special or something and maintain elitism of raids make ensures it stays that way?


    The answer is very simple.  Because almost everyone get the best gear they can get before they raid.  

    If there is a good gear that people can get solo.  The guild will demand the player to get that gear first before they attempt raiding.  And mmorpg is all about progression...  so the gear drop you get later are almost always better.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    edited June 6
    Not a huge fan of how gear is handled in games anyways.

    I don't like it that a warrior with gear X has no chance against the dragon; whereas, a warrior with gear Y can WTFPWN the same dragon.  It is a silly mechanic on its face and if games would go back to realism as a starting point they'd come up with more interesting solutions.

    For example, in real life Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass with dime store nun chucks or with high end nun chucks but the high end ones would last longer, be less likely to break, and would be better balanced.  Compare with the silly idea that Bruce Lee can barely scratch you with the dime store models but can one shot you with the legendary nun chucks of St. Whack.  

    ^--- Read that again and realize how silly this is in games.  Somehow, Bruce Lee with dime store nun chucks takes 10 minutes to kill a small fox for hides.  IT. IS. SO. DUMB.

    So for me the whole gear progression problem starts with a bad premise - which is probably why the gameplay is so boring.  
    AlBQuirkyIselin
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