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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,314
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:

    • BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
    • BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
    • BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
    • BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
    • ... and so on.

    Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.


    /endthread :)
    F that, man!  It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!

    /restartthreadwar
    You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
    I'm assuming the One BIS to Rule Them All naturally correlates to the most expensive cosmetic cash shop item(s). :D
    Only from loot boxes :)
    MadFrenchieblueturtle13SteelhelmAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 4,831
    I haven't read everything... far too many replies.

    ... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.

    I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
    Ungood
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,727
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
    Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
    Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    Im sorry Kyle ,  , but why would anyone to expect people to act any differently in a game than in RL... To many people dont know how to act in there day to day , and we knew this in 2007, 1997 ,1987 , 1957 .. etc..

      When i went into UO i read the the box , i read all the info on the site , I read the forums .. was easy and i assumed there would be bad guys in game , was not hard to figure out , Then i learned about the systems in game .. was easy ..

      But , on the topic , i was just mentioning that it was really quite easy to progress in UO soloing ...

     And as the avid Eve player you are/were , im sure you knew there could douches in game before the first time you hit Play
    By 2007 when I tried EVE I was well educated regarding player douchery, but in 2002 when I first started online gaming, not so much.

    Guess I was lucky,  my first few MMOs, L1, DAOC, SB, L2 really weren't full of rampant arseholes, wasn't until WOW I first ran into them enmasse.

    Reading since then about other games I realize they had some severe issues,  but again, I missed them by good fortune. 

    Real life douchery is a actually quite uncommon as there are consequences to pissing off a 240#, crabby looking bald guy with a firearm permit, people are just a whole lot more respectful I assure you.

    Back to topic, there are always ways to solo in most any MMORPG, I did it much of my time in most early games as I was always a big time multiboxer, who needed friends, I brought my own.





    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,450
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    I agree they existed, but again: ratio and intensity.  Either through ignorance or feeling of responsibility, things like doxing or swatting weren't existent or weren't common enough to be a thing, and certainly not common terms.

    It was truly different, even if humanity's flaws still showed up periodically.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 679
    I haven't read everything... far too many replies.

    ... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.

    I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
    Might want to avoid just dumping a change to a single part of a system into a system it's not made to accommodate then. If yer gonna get that granular about people buying their way to victory, you always have people willing to pay their way through raids in the first place. 

    Now, while that issue can be countered with the fact that paying your way through a raid is not generally a game-sanctioned method, the point there would be none the less that if you want to address not letting people abuse a system through financial power, then you're going to have to step it up either way.

    In the instance of gear being tradable, it kills one thing people would pay for, but does introduce another thing they might pay for. At this point you have to weigh what impact your solution is going to have on the game in that;

    1) You can allow a mechanic around cash shops and transfer of currency through trade into game currency to buy things with, and create a legal path for whales or similar people to pay their way to obtaining certain things in the game economy.

    2) You can try and keep it separate, and acknowledge that there will still be a background "black market" economy of people buying items from one another. Or if you don't allow trade, paying people to run them through a raid or similar to obtain the gear.

    The reason you might want to consider the first option, is not actually for the second reason brought up there though. Yes, gaming "black markets" will be a thing, but that is itself not an excuse to "legalize" such trades. Instead, it's a question of how allowing those trades may impact the player economy.

    This feeds into the very argument of how to monetize a F2P title or title with a cash shop in general, and largely hinges on how "whales" and their buying power will consequently impact a game with their presence. The reason you would consider allowing players to invest their money into the player economy is because, well, they would be investing in the player economy

    At least from my perspective, the best way to implement a monetisation scenario around cash shops and F2P that's as user friendly as it can be is by making a situation where the likes of whales and their purchases, feeds other players in the game's community rather than simply giving the whale a step up above the other players.

    In the case of buying raid gear, if a game has a way to obtain game currency as many modern titles, and if it allows transition of that currency into the player economy, that means someone else, potentially multiple people, are consequently getting cash-shop currency they have traded the other direction to obtain. This is often the case already in many such games, and gives a basic feedback loop where people willing to grind in a game can benefit from those willing to pay for something, giving a mutually beneficial scenario that the company can also benefit from.

    But this situation can be improved to favor players and the community more, by making many monetary purchases themselves focused around enhancing the community rather than just oneself directly.

    This is the kind of thing that'd need it's own thread to discuss however, as there's ALOT more to be discussed on that matter both positively and negatively, and doesn't really pertain very directly to the things in question within this thread aside form it's connection and influence upon the player community and economy.
    Ungood
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,339
    edited June 12
    I haven't read everything... far too many replies.

    ... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.

    I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
    I think players buying from other players should be part of any MMORPG's economy.
    It's the cash shops selling in-game currency that makes this particular thing PtW.

    Limnic hit on this in much more detail just above my post. I just wanted to highlight this one point of view, one I feel strongly about.

    Once upon a time....

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 4,831
    I haven't read everything... far too many replies.

    ... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.

    I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
    I think players buying from other players should be part of any MMORPG's economy.
    It's the cash shops selling in-game currency that makes this particular thing PtW.

    Limnic hit on this in much more detail just above my post. I just wanted to highlight this one point of view, one I feel strongly about.

    That's exactly what I said...
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,692
    As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,727
    jusomdude said:
    As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
    Not practical really, as in most games the dragon operates the same way as a player character, difference being it has far more hit points and deals more dps.

    The same attributes raid gear imparts to help a player (more str, power, speed, etc)  kill a dragon also in general work against other players equally well.




    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,314
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
    Not practical really, as in most games the dragon operates the same way as a player character, difference being it has far more hit points and deals more dps.

    The same attributes raid gear imparts to help a player (more str, power, speed, etc)  kill a dragon also in general work against other players equally well.




    He plays ESO like I do.

    In ESO there is PvP gear that does more damage against specifically other players or buffs you if you're near a keep, etc. And there is also Raid gear that only does more damage against mobs in instanced dungeons or raids.

    All the sets aren't like that and there are still annoyances (like wanting to use fpr PVP the 2-piece monster mask + shoulders sets that only drop in PvE instanced dungeons) but they've tried a bit more than most other games to make BIS gear more special purpose. 
    blueturtle13ScotKyleranAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,692
    edited June 12
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    As long as raid gear isn't the best for PvP I don't care what gear they have. Give them +100 to slaying dragons or whatever but keep their dragon gear away from PvP/
    Not practical really, as in most games the dragon operates the same way as a player character, difference being it has far more hit points and deals more dps.

    The same attributes raid gear imparts to help a player (more str, power, speed, etc)  kill a dragon also in general work against other players equally well.





    Stats that only apply bonuses when fighting NPCs or players could easily be added.

    Scot
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 942
    I think everyone should have the opportunity to get the best gear on the game from a variety of paths. Whether they actually do or not depends on if they're successful.
    People "almost" always choose the path of least resistance.  So I think all path should be "relatively similar" in difficulty.

    My argument is raid is really difficult.  So why should other people get raid equivalent gear.  "Unless" it is difficult too.  
    Scot
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,538
    edited June 12
    Then make it really difficult just not only one way. Again look at istaria. A t6 grand hall requires millions of units. The game is about 16 years old and yes not many people play, but only a few people have made this Hall. It takes months to do this but you can still do it.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,135
    I haven't read everything... far too many replies.

    ... but I think with today's cash shop practices every MMO would be P2W if you could buy BIS/Raid gear from other players. Most games have a way to obtain in game currency if you pay more; WoW Tokens, paying for more retainers in FFXIV, Gems to Gold in GW2... etc.

    I mean, those things are pretty P2W in the first place (I'm aware some people don't agree and I don't want to debate that) but if you could use those to get the absolute best loot in the game there would be no arguing about whether it was P2W or not.
    Bind on account unless it is mats, as discussed earlier. It is a tricky one the mats might need to be traded with crafters who could make the gear, which in turn could lead to the P2W you describe.

     25 Agrees

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,135
    edited June 12
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    KyleranAlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Solo quest are the final form of themeparks.  
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,048
    Shaigh said:
    The point of raid drops is that its far from a guarantee and it makes people show up so you can do a place more than once. Given that progression raiding can cause fatigue lots of people also enjoy switching between progression and more casual loot raids.

    When it comes to drops, it took me six months to get a huge weapon upgrade in vanilla, I remember all the stuff about sulfuras and thunderfury that our group got. Back then loot actually meant something and people were happy about others getting cool stuff. That changed, in wotlk you basically entered raids with a shopping list of things you wanted and every week you get 3-4 epics. With epics being so common it killed the sense of reward of getting those items.

    The reason its unique is because people will go for the path of lowest resistance and it would diminish the "value" of said items. 
    That just reminded me of a new achievement coming out in Rise of Azshara.
    "I thought you said they were rare" For rare mobs, but relevant. So you know even the devs themselves realise what they are doing.
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 136
    edited June 13
    would talk about the likes of RvR here ??

    RVR is every mmorpg is a disaster . ok not every Warhammer was ok rvr


    Kyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,636
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 136
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
    Now we got names for every player?
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,016

    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
    Now we got names for every player?
    it's been used for two decades.
    Scot

    image

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,636
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
    Now we got names for every player?
    It's not a new Term, been around for a long time to describe players that hop into a game, grind the content, and move on.. like Loctus.

    They are also the massive legions that Return for Expansions, grind the Expansion Content and then Move off Just as Fast.. again.. like Locus.

    On the flip side of that, Social Butterflies, as it were, stay in games due to community, and often will stay with a game long after the game itself ceases to be fun for them simply for the social interaction and to play with in-game friends.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,135
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
    Now we got names for every player?
    It's not a new Term, been around for a long time to describe players that hop into a game, grind the content, and move on.. like Loctus.

    They are also the massive legions that Return for Expansions, grind the Expansion Content and then Move off Just as Fast.. again.. like Locus.

    On the flip side of that, Social Butterflies, as it were, stay in games due to community, and often will stay with a game long after the game itself ceases to be fun for them simply for the social interaction and to play with in-game friends.

    To me locusts eat up the content and go, butterflies don't even get to the end of the content. But they may come back again and flit away once more. I think that is the standard definition?

    You may also have noted that the main problem for MMORPG's was once the locust, now I would say it is butterflies, gaming has become a ten minute activity fitted in between Twitter and You tube.

    I do recognise the social butterflies idea, some of our best guildies are those.

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,636
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    Always have been jack asses online.  Always. 

    I do think people were more social in general though good and bad.  Community was slower moving so you could learn a name and maybe see them again.  Being able or willing to talk you also met the cool people more often. 

    Butterflies don't stay long, one of the things I mentioned on here earlier was that solo questing does not even hold people until top level. Which was why I questioned some sort of solo top level super quests retaining people at top level. But when you think about it, what will hold players even to top level, never mind the end game we talked about?

    I would talk about the likes of RvR here, which I think could help with that, but the truth is that the majority of the player base is now butterflies who want to flit to the next game after only a month of play. You are never going to be able to keep players like that, which has had a hugely damaging impact on the community feeling of MMOs 
    Butterflies? LOL.. no.. those kinds of players were called Content Loctus.
    Now we got names for every player?
    It's not a new Term, been around for a long time to describe players that hop into a game, grind the content, and move on.. like Loctus.

    They are also the massive legions that Return for Expansions, grind the Expansion Content and then Move off Just as Fast.. again.. like Locus.

    On the flip side of that, Social Butterflies, as it were, stay in games due to community, and often will stay with a game long after the game itself ceases to be fun for them simply for the social interaction and to play with in-game friends.

    To me locusts eat up the content and go, butterflies don't even get to the end of the content. But they may come back again and flit away once more. I think that is the standard definition?

    You may also have noted that the main problem for MMORPG's was once the locust, now I would say it is butterflies, gaming has become a ten minute activity fitted in between Twitter and You tube.

    I do recognise the social butterflies idea, some of our best guildies are those.
    The Social Butterfly, or Socialite Player, is simply a player that values the community, friends, guild, etc, as the most important aspect of the game. That is their core point.

    With that said, How far along these players get in any game or what entices them depends more on their social group than anything else. If the social network they are in decides they want to raid, These players will raid like hard core mutherfukkas, read up all they can, help ever damn single guildie get raid ready, and all that stuff that leaves the vast majority of us wondering how they even do that, simply because they want to share the game with their social network. If their social network is chillax and all about role play or who has the best color dye for their foppy pants, they will do that and own that shit like a mutherfukka as well.

    These players have never been a problem in a game, they are often the ones that spend the most time building in-game communities and making the game a welcoming place for new players, older players, and returning players.

    Even in the modern MMO landscape, since their focus is on social, they are not looking for the 5 min jump around and easy fast rewards, as that is not what moves them. They are fine with logging in for a few hours, just to chat with friends, talk about life and what you have and not get a damn thing done in game, they also tend to spend freely and buy gifts for their social network. So they are very profitable for Cash Shop MMO's.

    However, there is no direct playstyle for these players, the only common factor, is they are about community first, as such, the largest downside to the Social Butterfly is if their social network (or at least the people they care the most about) moves on, they will join them without hesitation or a second glance back.

    If anything, off site, or 3rd party systems (like Discord for example) have had the largest effect on this demographic, as they no longer need to log into a game to chat with their friends on-line, they simply boot up Discord and chat away, talk about life, games, what have you, all with a "Gamer/MMO" backdrop they feel comfortable with, so they are far less likely to put up with a game they are not having fun in then they had been in the past.

    Content Loctus, have always been a problem with games, for the same reasons in the past as today, they arrive, consume and move on, often spending as little as possible in the process, but with today's social platforms they tend to cry and whine more about the lack of content.
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