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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 10
    Scot said:

    I value a system that works more than one that's untested, that does not mean I don't want to see games evolving it means I am pragmatic. This is getting tiresome, of course if we are talking total redesign anything is on the table. But if you were to ask me do I think something that has worked is a safer bet than something untried, unsurprisingly I would say yes it was.

    "You are taking the stance that no games have demonstrated or even experimented with these things" - I talked about the ESO example you gave and the AoW example BC gave, so it is rather odd you think that.

    I do think that most of what we had talked about has not been seen in practise, as we have had umpteen ideas on here. That does not mean as ideas they should not go forward, but naturally (to me anyway) what you mentioned about top level ESO soloing quests and BC mentioned about mats obtained as raid rewards seemed more pertinent. But Lahmnir’s idea interested me the most in general terms because it seemed inclusive of the community while giving the widest range of gameplay options.

    MMORPG’s have not failed because of raiding they “failed” because they have a life expectancy and the past several years has been a terrible climate for MMOS, now I could be wrong (that’s something some of us on here are prepared to be) but you are in la la land if you are certain you know why they closed. How was it not down to players moving away from MMOs or Fornite moving in and so on. You should get a career in game production, you would be a savant, or maybe you are just seeing what you want to see from those closures?

    I have to take your clarification about not wanting to get rid of raiding with a pinch of salt as nearly every time you talk about raids they seems to be the root of all ills and your tone is very dismissive. Indeed in your denial that raids need to go, you tell us why raids need to go. You can see how that looks?

    I think we have got each other blood boiling enough on this one, so lets leave it there, we simply don’t agree and that’s no big deal. I think no less of you, and hope to see you posting anon.

    Your first two paragraph/statements are contradictions. Yes, you have talked briefly, and then your most recent statement/claim;

    "keeping gaming systems that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work"
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid/p13#P8OEiBfp0sxSDcZf.99 

    ...was a direct dismissal that those examples were ones mechanically showing what is and isn't working, not what "might work".

    And what the hells are you talking about "top level ESO soloing quests"? My ESo examples were never focused on solo content. This is exactly why I have had this recurring issue with you, you continually have tried to wedge these things into a false perspective that no one but you possesses. It's no wonder you have issue with the things discussed, because you keep reinterpreting them.

    This is why you finally taking Lahnmir's suggestion, even though it's basically the same discussion point we'd tried to have five pages ago, is such a contradiction since back at that point you'd entirely dismissed the very same concept to focus on the above false dichotomy you've been raving about each post instead.

    And I have to ask where again you manage to interpret my statements as raids being the problem, when every time I have talked about the issues around endgame I have expressly framed it as the problem being too narrow a focus on a specific form of content instead of accounting for the game's community? 

    When I say why I think endgame is too narrow to cater to a wide audience, why do you interpret that as "why raids need to go"? Where have I ever said raids "need to go" or "why raids need to go"? Can you quote even one time I have said such?

    Fact is you can't, because that's an entirely fictional claim you cooked up to whine about in spite of gods knows how many times I've had to correct you. You have this specific interpretation of everything so cemented in your head that you have to straight up bullshit about other people's posts, and that's honestly infuriating that you'd stoop so low to try and hold onto whatever the hell your position even is any more.

    When you drum up claims like "the climate isn't good for MMOs" you have to follow with the logic of "why is it not good for MMOs". What is it about the current MMO titles that is failing, that is keeping the community from enjoying them? You wanna guess where we'd be headed with the answers to that?

    If I am honest, I do think less of you, if only because you have shown no respect for honesty in these discussions. Feels a bit like when another poster got upset that I'd pointed out one game was older than another game.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,898
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    Scot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    Yeah, but you weren't forced to group in combat.  You were required to see other players for maintenance and crafting
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    Yeah, but you weren't forced to group in combat.  You were required to see other players for maintenance and crafting
    Solid point, Player Interdependency can be a very solid way a game can build a solid and growing social structure, we don't always need to be forced to get together only to kill stuff.

    No different than buying things from crafters, or what have you.. good to see other ideas being explored.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,743
    Ungood said:

    Solid point, Player Interdependency can be a very solid way a game can build a solid and growing social structure, we don't always need to be forced to get together only to kill stuff.

    No different than buying things from crafters, or what have you.. good to see other ideas being explored.
    I would have both, the more grouping, the more socialising the better.
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,898
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:

    Solid point, Player Interdependency can be a very solid way a game can build a solid and growing social structure, we don't always need to be forced to get together only to kill stuff.

    No different than buying things from crafters, or what have you.. good to see other ideas being explored.
    I would have both, the more grouping, the more socialising the better.
    The more player interdepencies and interactions the better in my book, it's what makes MMORPGs stand out from other genres.

    Even if the players don't necessarily like all of them, sometimes they need to be "encouraged" to accept them, for the good of the game world.

    /mic drop


    ScotSteelhelm

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NetspookNetspook Member UncommonPosts: 1,583
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    WoW: no, you don't get top gear through LFR, though it's better than from dungeons and such. In fact, you can actually get better gear from world quests than from LFR, that is once your items level has improved enough to make ilvl 370+ appear as rewards for you. Heck, you can sometimes even get at least up to ilvl 400 from faction caches, war fronts and metaquests, which is just below heroic level gear in the newest raid (Crucible of Storms, HC, is 405 and 410).

    Btw, LFR is bottom tier of raiding in WoW. Next tiers are normal, heroic and mythic.

    Amathe seems to be under the impression that LFR has made huge numbers of players starting raiding. That is far from the truth. I have roughly 50 people on my friends list, I only keep people I socialize a lot with on the list. Of these, I would guess maybe 20% occationally do LFRs, and not a single one of them do normal or higher. Also, I constantly see the very same guilds trying to recruit raiders month after month, suggesting it's not easy to get members who wants to raid.

    As for the OP's question:

    No, I don't think non-raiders should get top gear. I do, however, like WoW's current system. Good gear from multiple sources, but not the very best. I don't raid myself, and wouldn't mind getting the best gear (of course), but seriously, there's no need to get top raid gear if you're not raiding.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:

    Solid point, Player Interdependency can be a very solid way a game can build a solid and growing social structure, we don't always need to be forced to get together only to kill stuff.

    No different than buying things from crafters, or what have you.. good to see other ideas being explored.
    I would have both, the more grouping, the more socialising the better.
    The more player interdepencies and interactions the better in my book, it's what makes MMORPGs stand out from other genres.

    Even if the players don't necessarily like all of them, sometimes they need to be "encouraged" to accept them, for the good of the game world.

    /mic drop


    Originally, GW2 built on the idea of organic grouping, with players gathering together for social events, like DE's and World Bosses. This building a community of players without all the e-peen waving that Raids often bring with them.

    Unfortunately, GW2 succumbed to the archaic idea of Raids and Raid Locked Gear, and their game has been going down ever since.

    As such, no, we do not need to cling to ideas that make a small group of players happy, when they ultimately do more harm than good. The reality is, Raids do not build community, they divide it. This has been proven with every single game that has raids.

    What we need is a game with more World Bosses and less Raids.
    KyleranLimnicSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:

    Solid point, Player Interdependency can be a very solid way a game can build a solid and growing social structure, we don't always need to be forced to get together only to kill stuff.

    No different than buying things from crafters, or what have you.. good to see other ideas being explored.
    I would have both, the more grouping, the more socialising the better.
    The more player interdepencies and interactions the better in my book, it's what makes MMORPGs stand out from other genres.

    Even if the players don't necessarily like all of them, sometimes they need to be "encouraged" to accept them, for the good of the game world.

    /mic drop


    Originally, GW2 built on the idea of organic grouping, with players gathering together for social events, like DE's and World Bosses. This building a community of players without all the e-peen waving that Raids often bring with them.

    Unfortunately, GW2 succumbed to the archaic idea of Raids and Raid Locked Gear, and their game has been going down ever since.

    As such, no, we do not need to cling to ideas that make a small group of players happy, when they ultimately do more harm than good. The reality is, Raids do not build community, they divide it. This has been proven with every single game that has raids.

    What we need is a game with more World Bosses and less Raids.
    I don't mind raids.  Raids of a few kind I would prefer. 

    One where it is more monster hunter and you can go into serveral dangerous places that requires a large groups and take down NPC that require large groups.  This is for gear to make hostile area easier and/or gear crafting materials.

    Developer event that requires boss NPC to be taken down in dungeon.  This is a per server one time thing.  

    Procedurally created threats that the system randomly generates from time to time.  

    I just don't like the world ending threat over and over on weekly demand.  
    Limnic
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    I would still be apt to say the same as before that the problem that comes up around raiding is as Ungood mentioned, it's too closed off from the rest of the games they tend to be nested in. They are not an overall community activity, and instead fosters only a niche community that is not sufficient to sustain a title.

    I would diverge on the solution to reference prior ideas about, while not changing raids in a direct sense, changing things like making the rewards different or opening them up to being tradeable and feed back into the player economy.

    This would still need to be coupled with a shift to offering more viable alternative gameplay options outside of raids for players, as it remains the point that MMOs as a collaborative and social user experience needs more social factors rather than divisive ones.
    Ungood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,408
    Again grandfathered mechanics and concepts.  But I been down this path once before.  If I had the funding I would make the next new aged mmo
      Do you think it would sell?
    (just asking)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 177
    Ask WIldstar how catering to the elite raider crowd worked out...

    IMO, raid-quality gear should be obtainable either through raiding or crafting.  And that said, the raids shouldn't be ridiculous time-sinks requiring 40+ people.  We live in a goGoGO world.  Ain't nobody got time for a 6-hour dungeon crawl while herding 40+ people away from their friends, family, and/or jobs.  These games HAVE to make money, so they cannot cater exclusively to no-lifers.

    And about SWG...man I miss Entertainers in the Cantinas.  Remember gearing up your entertainment bot to do different stuffs?  Quality fun right there, IMO.
    AlBQuirkyVermillion_RaventhalUngoodSteelhelm

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,898
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
    Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
    Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
    Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,898
    edited June 11
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
    Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
    Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    AlBQuirkyScot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    edited June 11
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Kyleran said:
    Celcius said:
    I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.

    Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.

    One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
    UO and SWG had strong communities and practically no forced group content.  Maybe there are lessons.
    Wait,  what?  Not sure about UO, but  reason I gave SWG a hard pass was at launch players were forced to regularly visit doctors and cantinas to restore health or what not.

    SWG also has some fairly interconnected crafting mechanics I think, forcing players to work together to craft top gear yes?

    UO used the well worn practice of forcing players to band together to fend off ganking arses, at least if they wanted to progress.

    This is  untrue , and ive played/play for all it 21 years , and i spent plenty of time in 97 ,98, 99 .. Soloing and progressing , Matter a fact i sewed enough leather bras soloing to buy my first house deed.. If any player took the time to learn UO rules and systems it was very easy to work on your crafting /gathering and stats while soloing ..

      Now i did plenty of grouping but when i did it was with a group of friends and in most cases was knowing we would be fighting reds .. But avoiding them while solo was quite easy , at least for the smart kids
    Yeah, the smart kids always say this, but what was the experience for the average Joe, my guess quite a bit different considering the Trammel split .
    Well that would be there problem if they did not take the time to learn the systems and ran out in the Brit Woods unprepared , and then cried endlessly when they got ganked , and were stupid enough to return to the scene to get ganked again Or better yet except a rez from the very group that ganked you .. The were alot of very stupid players in UO who found it easier to cry on forums rather than learn the game
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    Im sorry Kyle ,  , but why would anyone to expect people to act any differently in a game than in RL... To many people dont know how to act in there day to day , and we knew this in 2007, 1997 ,1987 , 1957 .. etc..

      When i went into UO i read the the box , i read all the info on the site , I read the forums .. was easy and i assumed there would be bad guys in game , was not hard to figure out , Then i learned about the systems in game .. was easy ..

      But , on the topic , i was just mentioning that it was really quite easy to progress in UO soloing ...

     And as the avid Eve player you are/were , im sure you knew there could douches in game before the first time you hit Play
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,095
    I think many games actually let you get the best gear in the game outside of raid, but they are really difficult.

    How hard should it be to get the best gear in the game?

    Should almost everyone be able to get the best gear in the game?

    Should almost everyone be able to get the best gear in the game but hardcore get it faster etc?

    or Should only the top 1% get the best gear in the game?


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,542
    I think everyone should have the opportunity to get the best gear on the game from a variety of paths. Whether they actually do or not depends on if they're successful.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,900
    So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:

    • BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
    • BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
    • BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
    • BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
    • ... and so on.

    Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.


    /endthread :)
    bcbullyScot
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,542
    edited June 11
    Emphasis on good storage. In Game's I craft a lot and do tend to gather/hoard materials.

    In coh I have all 18 storage shelves full. There are 110 salvage pieces and only 18 shelves?  Egads.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Iselin said:
    So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:

    • BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
    • BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
    • BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
    • BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
    • ... and so on.

    Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.


    /endthread :)
    F that, man!  It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!

    /restartthreadwar
    IselinKyleranbcbullyScotSteelhelm

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited June 11
    Kyleran said:
    In all fairness MMORPGs were quite new back then, most players (nor the developers really)  didn't realize what douches their fellow gamers could be.

    A normal person wouldn't realize they have to beware of everything, after all, it's just a game, right?

    That's because the ratio and intensity weren't at the same level then it is now.

    I distinctly remember having "RL picture" threads back when I was surfing a CoH forum waiting for it to release.  People weren't doxed or turned into grotesque and demeaning memes.  I don't recall ever seeing the term dox, much less hear about folks doxing one another.  Folks planned regional get-togethers with these complete strangers they only knew through a username and photo (if posted in the aforementioned picture thread).


    People were literally different on the internet back then.  Then everybody started realizing how anonymous they could be, and how lawless (generally speaking) the internet is/was (specifically prior to the 2010s).
    KyleranScot

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,900
    Iselin said:
    So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:

    • BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
    • BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
    • BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
    • BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
    • ... and so on.

    Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.


    /endthread :)
    F that, man!  It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!

    /restartthreadwar
    You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
    MadFrenchie
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited June 11
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    So, in conclusion, games should have several situational BIS sets for special purposes:

    • BIS raid gear that is only BIS for raids
    • BIS PvP gear that is only BIS for PvP
    • BIS crafting and gathering gear that is only BIS for crafting and gathering
    • BIS exploring gear that is only BIS for exploring
    • ... and so on.

    Plus a good storage system and a "wardrobe" system that lets you swap from one set to another quickly.


    /endthread :)
    F that, man!  It's not BIS if it's not BIS for EVERYTHING!

    /restartthreadwar
    You can always keep the fashion statement items One BIS to Rule Them All. After all, the only thing that really matters in MMOs these days is looking cooler than the plebs.
    I'm assuming the One BIS to Rule Them All naturally correlates to the most expensive cosmetic cash shop item(s).  (Naturally, you'll sell it as a full outfit, or more expensive pieces.) :D
    AlBQuirky

    image
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