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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    You claimed they lack content. Raiding is content, just stupidly narrow content that caters to a tiny portion of the user base.

    So your content claim, and your subsequent argument, just doesn't work or flow.

    And How are you this far behind on the discussion? Most of this thread has been about changes to the system that would accommodate a broader user experience. You arguing that status quo should be the status quo because it's the current status quo adds absolutely nothing to that.

    And why do you keep asking stupid questions? If WoW removed the BiS from raids without doing or considering anything that the folk that can cogitate have been discussing in this thread, the game would have removed what last vestiges of incentive it hasn't yet taken away from players.

    Why are you wasting time with tangents that mean next to nothing? Do you not have anything to contribute to what's actually been getting discussed?
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    edited June 10
    AAAMEOW said:
    In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content.  So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.  

    And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.  

    And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design.  So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously.  So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?

    Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game.  Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.  

    Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding.  Does that suddenly make your time more worth while?  Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
    The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    So what game are you playing that raid lock gear that you are bothered by the lack of content/bis gear outside of raid?

    Or are you just hypothesizing a problem or have you played a previous game that become a problem to you?

    You play wow and you find the lack of endgame content/bis outside raid a problem?
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    AAAMEOW said:
    In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content.  So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.  

    And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.  

    And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design.  So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously.  So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?

    Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game.  Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.  

    Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding.  Does that suddenly make your time more worth while?  Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
    The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
    I just keep farming gold from crafting to be honest.  I think I'm one of the richest if not the richest guy on my server during vanilla wow time.  And I just keep playing new alt and become altaholic.

    So your point is wow lacks crafting or solo content?  
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Click on the "games" tab at the top of this web page and have fun going down that list, with most of them having these problems. WoW is only brought up as a figurehead.

    Even within the exceptions to this, like GW2, you still run right into issues around their attempt at pushing fractals and similar raid content while neglecting other components, and ending up doing the same sideways alienation and loss of player retention around the rest of the userbase as WoW has had. This is a prolific issue.

    And as @VengeSunsoar said, the couple of things you mentioned crafting and solo dungeons are only a couple of the things we have been discussing, and you have completely ignored for the sake of these nonsensical dialogues or obsessive tangents. Hell, the fact that any affirmation was given to solo questing even though you were the one to yet again initiate that track you'll probably spin into another stupid comment as well.
    Ungood
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    Limnic said:
    Click on the "games" tab at the top of this web page and have fun going down that list, with most of them having these problems. WoW is only brought up as a figurehead.

    Even within the exceptions to this, like GW2, you still run right into issues around their attempt at pushing fractals and similar raid content while neglecting other components, and ending up doing the same sideways alienation and loss of player retention around the rest of the userbase as WoW has had. This is a prolific issue.

    And as @VengeSunsoar said, the couple of things you mentioned crafting and solo dungeons are only a couple of the things we have been discussing, and you have completely ignored for the sake of these nonsensical dialogues or obsessive tangents. Hell, the fact that any affirmation was given to solo questing even though you were the one to yet again initiate that track you'll probably spin into another stupid comment as well.
    well, fractal isn't raiding.  It is 5 man.  But I suppose you want solo content.  And the best gear is legendary.  Legendary weapon you can get from "mostly" soloing.  I'm not sure about legendary armor since I quit the game a while ago.

    I dont' think it is a problem in GW2.  Since there is no gear progression.  You can easily get the BiS just by crafting.  (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 10
    That argument is perhaps the one most devoid of thought as I have yet seen.

    Fractials are the same mechanic as raids in GW2, the only argument you have there is they are 5-man instead of 10 man, which just makes them a 5-man raid.

    And yet again you make the stupid solo argument. Doing something other than instanced crap does not immediately mean you have to be soloing. Are open world events a solo activity? No.

    And I don't care what you think. GW2, when they released this content and failed to deliver new gear to gain through alternative paths alongside the launch of this content, caused the viable scope for continued progression to narrow and drove players away. Just because you didn't think it was a problem is irrelevant, enough other people did that Arenanet tried to course-correct, but still lost a good number of active players and has progressively struggled more as a studio.

    Are you posting here because everyone else is smart enough to ignore you?
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    edited June 10
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content.  So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.  

    And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.  

    And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design.  So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously.  So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?

    Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game.  Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.  

    Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding.  Does that suddenly make your time more worth while?  Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
    The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
    I just keep farming gold from crafting to be honest.  I think I'm one of the richest if not the richest guy on my server during vanilla wow time.  And I just keep playing new alt and become altaholic.

    So your point is wow lacks crafting or solo content?  
    The point is wow lacks other means of getting gear at Max level other than raids.

    You suggested unless wow implements legendary crafting or head solo dungeons they don't deserve it.

    So other things  such as ones you suggested should be implemented.
    Limnic
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AAAMEOW said:
    I dont' think it is a problem in GW2.  Since there is no gear progression.  You can easily get the BiS just by crafting.  (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).

    The fact that they took an over 30% income decline within the first quarter after locking legendary armor behind raids, and kept bleeding income to the point that they ended up canceling all other projects and letting half their staff go to stay solvent, meass it was a major screw up on their part to cater to their 10% raiders.

    You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention. 
    Limnicacidblood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Limnic said:
    Seeing as even now WoW utilizes a very linear BiS design, and that the best gear consequently sits in raids still, your post is already simply a false statement.

    In the loose sense, you can ignore raids and do other things once you hit endgame, but most games you'd want to point at is going to have the same problem of those activities in no way contributing towards the goal of further progression of your character or user experience. There are a few exceptions to this obviously, but those are, well, exceptions, which often have their own issues (such as the prior mentioned Age of Wushu).
    Now, this is not being rude, as I am sure many people loved WoW, but, from what I have heard just in this topic alone, their entire gear system was crudely simplistic in contrast to games that came out less than a year later.

    Let me give you an idea.

    Imagine you want to Raid, and to raid, you need to complete a series of quest lines, we shall call them flagging quests. These quests do not hand you what you need to deal with the raid, they may have some rare named gear, that has obviously only a rare chance to drop for you, but overall, these quests are more a gauntlet to see if you are ready to even deal with the raid. 

    Now, to prep for these quests, you need to farm, other quests that have the gear you need to face these flagging quests.

    Then you do the Raid, and you have again a Chance to get some Raid Loot.

    Now, even after you get the raid loot, you are at best, only going to get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from that raid, because this raid does not drop complete sets, it drops some random rings, a mask, a pair of boots, bracers, and a staff and a maybe a bow. Some of which will be better than what you already have, or work well with your build, other pieces will be totally worthless to you. So, you do this raid, and you still, for the most part, will continue to use the gear that got you to this Raid.

    Now you might be thinking "Well Obviously as loot is class based" but.. what if it wasn't.. what if you played an MMO, where anyone could equip anything they wanted, it might have drawbacks or not work well with your build, but everything was open for you to use. So, every single item from that raid, you could equip.. but only a few piece would be really be beneficial to you.

    Now, Imagine.. going into that Raid, and knowing there is not a single thing you want from this raid, but you are doing it, because it's fun, because you are there to help your guild and friends, and well, it's still decent generic loot and solid exp.

    Can you even visualize that kind of game? Doing a raid where there is no loot that you actually want?

    Anyway.. so you move on after a while, do the Next Raid on the list.

    Again, flagging, leveling, gear prep, which may or may not have come from any previous Raids.

    Now..how could that work? Leveling? 

    Well, not I want you Imagine something mind warping... imagine if Raids didn't start at End Game.. imagine.. they started at Mid Game.

    So using your time in WoW, imagine if you could have started to raid at level 30 when the max was level 60. Now imagine that some of the loot you got from that level 30 raid, would still going to be viable for all the upcoming content, quests, raids, all of it.

    Bet that sounds like something that could never happen.

    Lets go a little deeper into that complex gear system.

    Now, imagine a gear system so complex, that there is no BiS item, that some apparently piddly little named item that you by luck picked up on some side quest line at level 15, was going end up being viable to you for the rest of your game life, that you would continue to use it, long into those level 60 raids, and when the cap gets raised again.. that item, was going to still get used there as well. 

    Now imagine it is not game breaking powerful, it's just a little bauble, that has its use, and if you didn't have it, it's not the end of the world for you, for the most part, an inconvenience, but, equally so, it could be the difference between your life or death during an encounter.

    Imagine a game that complex, where Raid gear, Challenge Gear, Quest Gear, all have their place, all are viable .. do you even think you could figure out how to make that happen?

    Well.. I play that kind of MMO every night. 

    Which is why, I cannot fathom where you all are coming from.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 10
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    edited June 10
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I dont' think it is a problem in GW2.  Since there is no gear progression.  You can easily get the BiS just by crafting.  (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).

    The fact that they took an over 30% income decline within the first quarter after locking legendary armor behind raids, and kept bleeding income to the point that they ended up canceling all other projects and letting half their staff go to stay solvent, meass it was a major screw up on their part to cater to their 10% raiders.

    You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention. 
    oh it's too bad.  Legendary weapon can be bought in the trading post.  I don't know they locked legendary armor.

    I'm not a person that care about cosmetic that much.  I suppose you guys just want gear for the prestige.  Because there isn't even stats on the legendary armor...  And people like you complain.

    Not saying there is anything wrong with you guys.  Plenty of people care about gear for the sack of caring about gear.  Quite a bit of people complain on the GW2 forum too.

    Legendary armor is released on may 2nd 2017 right?  Google said their revenue went up that time.  Where do you get the info their income took a 30% decline.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,611
    edited June 10
    Limnic said:
    Two main things.

    1) Your interpretation is obviously different, because most of what you have said thus-far has been focused on preserving the raiding dynamic as it's own thing. That runs counter to Lahn's dialogue. Even if you're quoting and saying you agree with him there, none of the rest of your rhetoric stands in line with that.

    If you mean to say you agree with what Lahn said there, but not with us when that was the same kinda thing we said several pages ago, then that leads to the separate issue that you chose to change your mind to agree with what we had said previously, but also chose to continue contending it.

    2) I'm suggesting everyone can contribute to it. Your obsession with soloers as the only counterpoint to raiders (who do not represent the full gaming community) is breaking any potential for conversation on that matter, since I am talking about the full gaming community.

    At least you didn't bother quoting something you didn't read this time. Yeah, I make some big posts, but anything you want to address I can be certain to quote a paragraph covering the topic. Do you call being thorough "meandering"? Where is it that I walk off on odd analogies or tangents? Am I repeating myself each paragraph, or stepping from one element to the next? What part of that is losing you?
    No, what I have said was eventually based on keeping gaming systems that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work. I was far more open to ideas at the start of this thread until it seemed to me that we just had solo enthusiasts promoting an 'anything but grouping, let alone raiding' agenda.

    There is one rather large elephant in the room to any such restructuring of endgame play. Will any gaming studio ever support such a model, I doubt it? There are elements that can be found in other games but it is a complex approach, that inherently means there are going to be issues no one has thought of. If anything it might appeal to studios who want a GaaS and that's not what the baulk of gamers want.

    I should finally point out, we all don't want your version of endgame, get over it and carry on playing.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,739
    edited June 10
    I do agree with Scot that there is a tendency to talk about wrong and right endgame in this thread. Too bad since there are just different kinds of it, one isn’t superior to the other, that is just opinion.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Scot
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited June 10
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I dont' think it is a problem in GW2.  Since there is no gear progression.  You can easily get the BiS just by crafting.  (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).

    The fact that they took an over 30% income decline within the first quarter after locking legendary armor behind raids, and kept bleeding income to the point that they ended up canceling all other projects and letting half their staff go to stay solvent, meass it was a major screw up on their part to cater to their 10% raiders.

    You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention. 
    oh it's too bad.  Legendary weapon can be bought in the trading post.  I don't know they locked legendary armor.

    I'm not a person that care about cosmetic that much.  I suppose you guys just want gear for the prestige.  Because there isn't even stats on the legendary armor...  And people like you complain.

    Not saying there is anything wrong with you guys.  Plenty of people care about gear for the sack of caring about gear.  Quite a bit of people complain on the GW2 forum too.

    Legendary armor is released on may 2nd 2017 right?  Google said their revenue went up that time.  Where do you get the info their income took a 30% decline.
    A Few points.

    1) Legendary Armor has the same stats as Ascended, along with the ability to swap stats out of combat, allowing you to modify or change your gear stats to meet a situation, this also ensures that Legendary Armor will be the last and only suit of armor you will ever need for that character, ever.

    I have no idea where you got the idea that it did not have stats.
     
    2) LoL, no, 2nd Quarter/2017, was PoF (Path of Fire) Pre-Order. Legendary Armor was Introduced with Heart of Thorns (HoT) (3rd Quarter/2015) along with the Raids they were locked behind.

    The Tier 1 Journey for Legendary Armor was Put in with the First Raid, as such, no one could get past Tier 1, without first farming the Raid itself.

    Anet explained that the rest of the armor and journey would be put in over time along with the other Raid wings, but that did not change the fact that Legendary Armor was introduced and implemented into the game with HoT. As such the damage to the population that it was going to be Raid Locked armor was already done.

    After HoT, Anet saw a significant and continual decline in their overall sales till Path of Fire (PoF) (That was the jump up in 2Q/17, PoF Pre-Order, just FYI) was released, which was marketed and designed for their more casual player base. Also at this time, they put in a reward track for Legendary Armor in both WvW and sPvP at this time, removing it from being totally PvE Raid Locked.

    As such, anyone that was not being deliberately obtuse could see that Raid Locking Top Tier gear in GW2, and trying to cater to their top 10% PvE players was akin to shooting themselves in the foot.

    (edit, needed to fix some numbers)
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,901
    Again grandfathered mechanics and concepts.  But I been down this path once before.  If I had the funding I would make the next new aged mmo
    Steelhelm

    image

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Scot said:
    Limnic said:
    Two main things.

    1) Your interpretation is obviously different, because most of what you have said thus-far has been focused on preserving the raiding dynamic as it's own thing. That runs counter to Lahn's dialogue. Even if you're quoting and saying you agree with him there, none of the rest of your rhetoric stands in line with that.

    If you mean to say you agree with what Lahn said there, but not with us when that was the same kinda thing we said several pages ago, then that leads to the separate issue that you chose to change your mind to agree with what we had said previously, but also chose to continue contending it.

    2) I'm suggesting everyone can contribute to it. Your obsession with soloers as the only counterpoint to raiders (who do not represent the full gaming community) is breaking any potential for conversation on that matter, since I am talking about the full gaming community.

    At least you didn't bother quoting something you didn't read this time. Yeah, I make some big posts, but anything you want to address I can be certain to quote a paragraph covering the topic. Do you call being thorough "meandering"? Where is it that I walk off on odd analogies or tangents? Am I repeating myself each paragraph, or stepping from one element to the next? What part of that is losing you?
    No, what I have said was eventually based on keeping gaming systems that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work. I was far more open to ideas at the start of this thread until it seemed to me that we just had solo enthusiasts promoting an 'anything but grouping, let alone raiding' agenda.

    There is one rather large elephant in the room to any such restructuring of endgame play. Will any gaming studio ever support such a model, I doubt it? There are elements that can be found in other games but it is a complex approach, that inherently means there are going to be issues no one has thought of. If anything it might appeal to studios who want a GaaS and that's not what the baulk of gamers want.

    I should finally point out, we all don't want your version of endgame, get over it and carry on playing.
    Several major faults with your claim.

    If your goal is "keep things that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work" you run into an immediate issue.

    1) You just said you don't want games to evolve.

    2) You are taking the stance that no games have demonstrated or even experimented with these things, even though people like myself have given reference to games with examples in plenty of cases as to why something could work or does not work.

    Your continued insistence that the suggestions are hinged on "solo enthusiasts" even though much of these suggestions have been hinged around making community relevant, also remains as nonsensical as ever. Seeing as solo play was only one suggestion ever made, and it's been regularly accompanied by other tracks focused on fostering community interaction and interdependence, your desire to shave the rest away to attack only one facet of it as if that is the only thing argued for is, very simply, a dishonest argument.

    As for your second paragraph. Perhaps it's not what you want to hear, but MMOs are all Games as a Service. You play them on the time developers give you (with the exception being the legally murky private servers) and the game's design is entirely subject to what the studio wants to do with it over time. 

    And this does bring in issues, but it brings in issues that run counter to many of the stances you have chosen to take, as we can point at many titles that have focused on the raiding dynamic and consequently failed, because they neglected community in the process of doing so.

    This is why we can look at examples like the Anet situation that @Ungood and I have talked about too. Because we have live demonstrations of what can and does go wrong with some of these systems we've been criticizing. Not just some opinion about "oh I dun like it", but instead it's "oh, this KILLS games".

    Of course I don't assume everyone wants a singular vision of endgame, or of games in general. Were we talking about specific preferences, or systems to engage and retain users? Did you know I played a game called Raiderz that, well, was a game about raiding shiz(did you also know, that game eventually got shut down because the community around it was simply too small to sustain it)?

    If we're talking about preferences, then I want an action-focused third person shooter MMO with the ability to run around with a NPC or player team as a squad and commit Rainbow Six style breach and clear strategies, or integrate with larger units to participate in guerrilla warfare scenarios in a sfi-ci fantasy setting. Endgame in that would likely revolve around a good amount of PvP, an entirely separate tract to what's been discussed here in general. I'd obviously still want that to pan out to cater to more than just the PvP crowd for user retention, but an action combat focused shooter built around the notion of highly scalable battlefield scenarios? Kind of a PvP game.

    But instead, we are talking about the mechanics, how present systems have managed to retain users (or not retain them at all), and systems that could pad out perceived shortcomings to raise that retention.

    And that would be a point I would address to @Lahnmir too. As it's not like anyone has said "get rid of raids" outright or that raiding is itself wrong to do, but we have said that it is only one form of endgame, and that it does not effectively cater to the majority of the userbase, which is a statement backed by the fact that any given example of raiding focused endgame you can see the subs dwindle as players run out of ancillary content. That does make it the wrong thing to focus on if it's going to be to the detriment of the community. Does that mean getting rid of raiding? No, that means offering a better distributed development of endgame content.
    lahnmirUngood
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Ungood said:
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
    Then shouldn't that have been a response to Meow who was the one posing the WoW focused demonstration, which my post was a response to?
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
    Then shouldn't that have been a response to Meow who was the one posing the WoW focused demonstration, which my post was a response to?
    yah.. but you're more sane. ;)
    LimnicSteelhelm
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
    Then shouldn't that have been a response to Meow who was the one posing the WoW focused demonstration, which my post was a response to?
    I dont' have any problem with any games.  Raid lock, non raid lock, sandbox, non sandbox, group focus, solo focus, I play them all.

    The people who complain on the forum are the one having problem.

    Like I said, many games out there, I just play what is there instead of complaining.  If I dont' like it, I play other game.

    You guys can keep complaining.  I dont' find that for bad thing.  People are suppose to fight for what they want.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
    Then shouldn't that have been a response to Meow who was the one posing the WoW focused demonstration, which my post was a response to?
    I dont' have any problem with any games.  Raid lock, non raid lock, sandbox, non sandbox, group focus, solo focus, I play them all.

    The people who complain on the forum are the one having problem.

    Like I said, many games out there, I just play what is there instead of complaining.  If I dont' like it, I play other game.

    You guys can keep complaining.  I dont' find that for bad thing.  People are suppose to fight for what they want.
    So basically complaining about complaining.  I think sometimes people take discussions being way to literal. Like it is word magic and will type things into existence. 

    These forums are about MMORPG discussion and many times go into design discussion.  Asking the question people responding is par for the course.  
    Limnic
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,611
    edited June 10
    Limnic said:
    Scot said:

    No, what I have said was eventually based on keeping gaming systems that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work. I was far more open to ideas at the start of this thread until it seemed to me that we just had solo enthusiasts promoting an 'anything but grouping, let alone raiding' agenda.

    There is one rather large elephant in the room to any such restructuring of endgame play. Will any gaming studio ever support such a model, I doubt it? There are elements that can be found in other games but it is a complex approach, that inherently means there are going to be issues no one has thought of. If anything it might appeal to studios who want a GaaS and that's not what the baulk of gamers want.

    I should finally point out, we all don't want your version of endgame, get over it and carry on playing.
    Several major faults with your claim.

    If your goal is "keep things that work rather than dropping them for possibilities that might work" you run into an immediate issue.

    1) You just said you don't want games to evolve.

    2) You are taking the stance that no games have demonstrated or even experimented with these things, even though people like myself have given reference to games with examples in plenty of cases as to why something could work or does not work.

    Your continued insistence that the suggestions are hinged on "solo enthusiasts" even though much of these suggestions have been hinged around making community relevant, also remains as nonsensical as ever. Seeing as solo play was only one suggestion ever made, and it's been regularly accompanied by other tracks focused on fostering community interaction and interdependence, your desire to shave the rest away to attack only one facet of it as if that is the only thing argued for is, very simply, a dishonest argument.

    As for your second paragraph. Perhaps it's not what you want to hear, but MMOs are all Games as a Service. You play them on the time developers give you (with the exception being the legally murky private servers) and the game's design is entirely subject to what the studio wants to do with it over time. 

    And this does bring in issues, but it brings in issues that run counter to many of the stances you have chosen to take, as we can point at many titles that have focused on the raiding dynamic and consequently failed, because they neglected community in the process of doing so.

    This is why we can look at examples like the Anet situation that @Ungood and I have talked about too. Because we have live demonstrations of what can and does go wrong with some of these systems we've been criticizing. Not just some opinion about "oh I dun like it", but instead it's "oh, this KILLS games".

    Of course I don't assume everyone wants a singular vision of endgame, or of games in general. Were we talking about specific preferences, or systems to engage and retain users? Did you know I played a game called Raiderz that, well, was a game about raiding shiz(did you also know, that game eventually got shut down because the community around it was simply too small to sustain it)?

    If we're talking about preferences, then I want an action-focused third person shooter MMO with the ability to run around with a NPC or player team as a squad and commit Rainbow Six style breach and clear strategies, or integrate with larger units to participate in guerrilla warfare scenarios in a sfi-ci fantasy setting. Endgame in that would likely revolve around a good amount of PvP, an entirely separate tract to what's been discussed here in general. I'd obviously still want that to pan out to cater to more than just the PvP crowd for user retention, but an action combat focused shooter built around the notion of highly scalable battlefield scenarios? Kind of a PvP game.

    But instead, we are talking about the mechanics, how present systems have managed to retain users (or not retain them at all), and systems that could pad out perceived shortcomings to raise that retention.

    And that would be a point I would address to @Lahnmir too. As it's not like anyone has said "get rid of raids" outright or that raiding is itself wrong to do, but we have said that it is only one form of endgame, and that it does not effectively cater to the majority of the userbase, which is a statement backed by the fact that any given example of raiding focused endgame you can see the subs dwindle as players run out of ancillary content. That does make it the wrong thing to focus on if it's going to be to the detriment of the community. Does that mean getting rid of raiding? No, that means offering a better distributed development of endgame content.

    I value a system that works more than one that's untested, that does not mean I don't want to see games evolving it means I am pragmatic. This is getting tiresome, of course if we are talking total redesign anything is on the table. But if you were to ask me do I think something that has worked is a safer bet than something untried, unsurprisingly I would say yes it was.

    "You are taking the stance that no games have demonstrated or even experimented with these things" - I talked about the ESO example you gave and the AoW example BC gave, so it is rather odd you think that.

    I do think that most of what we had talked about has not been seen in practise, as we have had umpteen ideas on here. That does not mean as ideas they should not go forward, but naturally (to me anyway) what you mentioned about top level ESO soloing quests and BC mentioned about mats obtained as raid rewards seemed more pertinent. But Lahmnir’s idea interested me the most in general terms because it seemed inclusive of the community while giving the widest range of gameplay options.

    MMORPG’s have not failed because of raiding they “failed” because they have a life expectancy and the past several years has been a terrible climate for MMOS, now I could be wrong (that’s something some of us on here are prepared to be) but you are in la la land if you are certain you know why they closed. How was it not down to players moving away from MMOs or Fornite moving in and so on. You should get a career in game production, you would be a savant, or maybe you are just seeing what you want to see from those closures?

    I have to take your clarification about not wanting to get rid of raiding with a pinch of salt as nearly every time you talk about raids they seems to be the root of all ills and your tone is very dismissive. Indeed in your denial that raids need to go, you tell us why raids need to go. You can see how that looks?

    I think we have got each other blood boiling enough on this one, so lets leave it there, we simply don’t agree and that’s no big deal. I think no less of you, and hope to see you posting anon.

     25 Agrees

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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    Ungood said:
    Limnic said:
    What exactly was that meant to be a response to?
    The idea that, it seems this whole discussion revolves around a single style of loot system, or even so much a single game.

    In some games, just due to how they are made, they have put themselves into a position where they are pretty much stuck with only one way to do things, but the players with only that kind of sampling, have not seen how other games have very successfully dealt with this exact issue.

    So, in short, anyone that thinks that best gear should be raid locked, simply has not played a game where it wasn't, and has not seen how much better those games can be.
    Then shouldn't that have been a response to Meow who was the one posing the WoW focused demonstration, which my post was a response to?
    I dont' have any problem with any games.  Raid lock, non raid lock, sandbox, non sandbox, group focus, solo focus, I play them all.

    The people who complain on the forum are the one having problem.

    Like I said, many games out there, I just play what is there instead of complaining.  If I dont' like it, I play other game.

    You guys can keep complaining.  I dont' find that for bad thing.  People are suppose to fight for what they want.
    So basically complaining about complaining.  I think sometimes people take discussions being way to literal. Like it is word magic and will type things into existence. 

    These forums are about MMORPG discussion and many times go into design discussion.  Asking the question people responding is par for the course.  
    ya, I probably take your topic a bit literal.  Should mmorpg be raid lock or not...  I just shrug and think why can't some mmo be raid lock while some isn't.  

    I don't have a problem with how gear is obtained.  I just think it is reasonable that it should be reasonable equal in difficulty.  

    A side story is I played vanilla wow.  I remember pvp gear is really difficult to obtain in the beginning.  I literally grind 10 hours a day every day and still can't get the grand marshal gear.  No one did, I think there is only 1 person on the entire server have it.  And people on the forum are complaining why it is so easy to obtain pve where they can just do a bit of raiding.  But pvp players have to grind all day and still not get it.  

    So I think it is reasonable for me to say I dont' have any problem with how gear is obtained.  Just that they should be similar in difficulty.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I dont' think it is a problem in GW2.  Since there is no gear progression.  You can easily get the BiS just by crafting.  (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).

    The fact that they took an over 30% income decline within the first quarter after locking legendary armor behind raids, and kept bleeding income to the point that they ended up canceling all other projects and letting half their staff go to stay solvent, meass it was a major screw up on their part to cater to their 10% raiders.

    You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention. 
    oh it's too bad.  Legendary weapon can be bought in the trading post.  I don't know they locked legendary armor.

    I'm not a person that care about cosmetic that much.  I suppose you guys just want gear for the prestige.  Because there isn't even stats on the legendary armor...  And people like you complain.

    Not saying there is anything wrong with you guys.  Plenty of people care about gear for the sack of caring about gear.  Quite a bit of people complain on the GW2 forum too.

    Legendary armor is released on may 2nd 2017 right?  Google said their revenue went up that time.  Where do you get the info their income took a 30% decline.
    A Few points.

    1) Legendary Armor has the same stats as Ascended, along with the ability to swap stats out of combat, allowing you to modify or change your gear stats to meet a situation, this also ensures that Legendary Armor will be the last and only suit of armor you will ever need for that character, ever.

    I have no idea where you got the idea that it did not have stats.
     

    Did Anet allowed sigil rune swaping on legendary gear?  Been a while since I played GW2.

    I never find the legendary perk of stat swapping be that useful because you can't swap sigil/rune anyway.
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