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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    And that's what generally happens. If those people reach end game they either reroll or leave till an expansion comes out.
    LimnicUngood
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 8
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    UngoodCazriel
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    Scot
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 235
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    Perfect example of this is WILDSTAR.
    CazrielUngood
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    Perfect example of this is WILDSTAR.
    It is kind of my response to make gear only obtainable by people with good twitch combat.  

    But I think you guys just have too much epeen...  While I think it is nice I can get the best gear and look pretty in town..  But I'll play a game as long as it have good content.

    Not to mention most games let you get better gear by doing a 5 minute quest in the next expansion.  So I fail to see the point...
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    I sincerely love how some people call casuals entitled, or claim they have too much e-peen, when all they want is to have their game time respected by developers.

    The irony here, is that developers do try to be more E-Sport, so they are all trying to rape up difficulty to get the best players to put on a show for their game, to try and get the big e-sport bucks, but they have as much chance to break into that, as a casual does to do a raid.

    So.. they might do well to take a reality check and rethink their marketing and survival strategy. 


    gunklackerKyleran
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 843
    edited June 9
    AAAMEOW said:
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.
    Did you ever try soloing an elite mob, at level? Or soloing some of the elite quests / areas? Vanilla WoW actually had a fair bit of 'hard solo' content (which could be done in a group as well of course), and most of it even rewarded you with some pretty good gear (at least before the whole 'raid or die' rot set in).

    'Hard' content does NOT have to be action / twitch based (have you ever player a turn based game?)... it simply needs you to know your class and use every tool in your kit to overcome the challenge (as opposed to the usual spam 1-2 abilities).
    Limnic
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    acidblood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.
    Did you ever try soloing an elite mob, at level? Or soloing some of the elite quests / areas? Vanilla WoW actually had a fair bit of 'hard solo' content (which could be done in a group as well of course), and most of it even rewarded you with some pretty good gear (at least before the whole 'raid or die' rot set in).

    'Hard' content does NOT have to be action / twitch based (have you ever player a turn based game?)... it simply needs you to know your class and use every tool in your kit to overcome the challenge (as opposed to the usual spam 1-2 abilities).
    I have very vague memory of vanilla wow.  It is a long time ago.  But I don't think it is any way close to as interesting as soloing boss in action combat games.  I remember seeing walock soloing dungeon which is quite interesting.  But it relies heavily on kiting and abusing monster AI, which I think seemed awkward.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Ungood said:
    I sincerely love how some people call casuals entitled, or claim they have too much e-peen, when all they want is to have their game time respected by developers.

    The irony here, is that developers do try to be more E-Sport, so they are all trying to rape up difficulty to get the best players to put on a show for their game, to try and get the big e-sport bucks, but they have as much chance to break into that, as a casual does to do a raid.

    So.. they might do well to take a reality check and rethink their marketing and survival strategy. 


    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.
    ScotUngood
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    The point you're trying to make is a point that's been addressed numerous times over then, and the subject of the original post suggesting that a game does not have a singular "best gear" and instead more specialized gear that focuses on respective gameplay paths.

    Not only that, but it's submission to a fault of the game rather than a perception that the game needs to improve it's systems.

    And It's no more impossible to make hard solo content than it is to make hard raid content. Many of the elements that goes into creating unique challenges for them have no unique trait forcing them to only work in a group or instanced environment.

    Also while true, difficult does not inherently mean time consuming, it's more about being engaging. Something worth spending your time on, learning, and replaying to master.

    Honestly, if you want a deeper suggestion around making questing something to engage players longer I have a different suggestion around it than simply trying to pose difficulty scaling.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    The point you're trying to make is a point that's been addressed numerous times over then, and the subject of the original post suggesting that a game does not have a singular "best gear" and instead more specialized gear that focuses on respective gameplay paths.

    Not only that, but it's submission to a fault of the game rather than a perception that the game needs to improve it's systems.

    And It's no more impossible to make hard solo content than it is to make hard raid content. Many of the elements that goes into creating unique challenges for them have no unique trait forcing them to only work in a group or instanced environment.

    Also while true, difficult does not inherently mean time consuming, it's more about being engaging. Something worth spending your time on, learning, and replaying to master.

    Honestly, if you want a deeper suggestion around making questing something to engage players longer I have a different suggestion around it than simply trying to pose difficulty scaling.
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited June 9
    AAAMEOW said:
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Don't think at any point I have focused on solo content. I have only responded to your questions regarding solo content. That was just one of multiple avenues for alternatives to raids that's been discussed.

    So I fail to see the irony there since that's never been my complaint. Perhaps you should jump back a few pages to see the original discussions instead of making things up.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Don't think at any point I have focused on solo content. I have only responded to your questions regarding solo content. That was just one of multiple avenues for alternatives to raids that's been discussed.

    So I fail to see the irony there since that's never been my complaint. Perhaps you should jump back a few pages to see the original discussions instead of making things up.
    I'm just saying many people keep calling wow or other generic themepark game a "solo game".  Because the leveling phase are mostly solo.  So they complain about it.  

    So I tell them wow is pretty much a group only focused game.  Because all the endgame require a group to do.  

    You should be there arguing with them.  Maybe the next time I saw such thread I'll pm you.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,631
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 

    As for Limnic's reply to my post; it was all over the place, Limnic seems to have raided and liked the experience, but I am not even sure of that. Your post left me puzzled at what your problem with raids is, it seems to resolve around this concept of elite players. Yet you mention that you have played raids in much the way I do. Players who consider themselves some sort of elite crew do not bother me, why do they bother you?

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,631
    Just to say that Jelly (Jello to you lot) must have cream, one cannot skimp when crafting and take the butterfly approach of missing out ingredients. At the end of your meal, leaving out cream for your desert will leave you feeling that had you taken the time to raid the fridge for some, it would taste so much better. :D

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,354
    edited June 9
    Scot said:
    But the answer to "why should raid be the best activity" is not just its the hardest, it is the social activity which again seems to be lost on some of our posters. I would suggest that maybe some posters have raided in the wrong sort of guild for them? I have always been in guilds where community and roleplaying are put before elite nonsense. Maybe that's why they think this is all about being elite? Presuming they even play in a guild that is. Raids are a social event, relaxed and when I think sometimes there were teenagers who should not of been playing according to the games rules, it was a family rated event.

    Perhaps that's what is at the bottom of this, if you see raids as stressful events and have no other experience of good grouping then it is no wonder you seek an alterative. This is not the first time I have suggested as a solution to various issues players in MMOs have, find a good guild and the problem is sorted.
    My experience is the latter, not the former. The few (3?) raids (WoW) I've participated in were hectic clusterfucks, with 40 people pretty much doing their own thing going for that killing blow themselves instead of working as a team. These raids were before the "Telegraphing Bosses" became a thing. One of them was after that "feature" was implemented. I also was a healer :)

    The EQ raids I've watched on YouTube can be terrible affairs where, depending on the player making the video, you NEVER see the boss as they hug the nearest corner, out of sight, and buff/heal other players as they get near them. I understand it is part of the mechanics and strategy, but why fight a big bad boss if you can't even see them?

    Small groups (2-8 players) are the prefect size for me. Basically more than that and my small brain gets overloaded with onscreen information :)

    My avoidance of large crowds in real life may factor in here, too :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,354
     The fact that a game even has an 'end game' is weird to me.  
    But that's as much a technical challenge as anything, isn't it?  End game isn't so much a dev goal as a practical necessity.

    At some point, the journey reaches a termination point.  If you include endless progression, you either have to keep churning out endless content, or you have to scale existing content (and repeat it over and over), which begins to make the endless progression seem rather superfluous.

    Devs can't create quality content at a fast enough rate to make any gaming experience "endless" without extreme repetition or unreasonable amounts of personnel needed to keep a flow of GM-created content going.  The repetitive content at the end becomes the "endgame."
    Could this be another reason to slow down the leveling process, instead of just "MORE MONEY!"? Of course devs can't keep up when max level is reached in a matter of weeks :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,354
    There are some interesting thoughts about "end game" and possible solutions. Unfortunately, none of them fit into the formula that makes today's MMOs: Fast leveling; Raiding; Gear Treadmill; Dailies.

    It will take some company with an actual desire to make a "fun game" to even try any of these out, even if they've been done and well received before.
    gunklackerScot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,905
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Limnic said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Tw-
    You seemed to miss the point. I even posed you these questions;

    "Is there really no way for you to look at unique mechanics and challenges that some raids have posed, and not see how similar challenges can be extracted an used in entirely different situations? Are you only able to fathom things as long as it remains within an instanced environment with a few people headbutting it?"

    As a direct highlight of the fact that even with the scope of the standard MMS sans twitch of Dark Souls style combat, the same kind of mechanics that introduced challenge to a raid can be applied to other forms of gameplay.

    You asked for an example of hard solo content, Why are you complaining about hard solo content being hard solo content after asking for an example of it? What did you want me to tell you hard solo content was Happy Carebear Land where people get loot and hugs for free? Hell, even in the suggestions made we have not espoused that players should get everything, hence the point of asking for challenging content outside the narrow scope of just raids and "raids lite".

    Additionally, raids "lock" a lot of players out, so what are you trying to gripe about there? You are literally using the reason raids are flawed as your attempted defense for them right now.

    And why would it need to be grindy if the skill ceiling is itself the offsetting factor? How do you reach the conclusion that a Dark Souls player puts less effort in than a person in a raid? How can you so readily belittle the time it takes to learn individual boss moves, stages, different weapon and armor moves and when to dodge or block where, etc-etc?

    No, there is plenty of effort there already, and being told to do a specific routine by another player in a raid hardly requires any effort especially compared to what you are putting in there for DS.

    You want grindy solo quests, there's dailies, and they yet again miss the point of having interesting or challenging content to be rewarded by outside of raids. That's just giving you a cookie for headbutting a wall 500 times.

    This is why, as @VengeSunsoar and @Ungood point out, most players simply leave after a time. Because instead of offering variety in play you instead take your line of logic and produce a game where the only challenge, the only thing to look forward to, is this one type of content only a few people have any interest in.

    I'd be concerned to work with anyone that thinks your comments are insightful.
    Put some logic to your argument next time please.
    Do you play wow?  I played wow back in the days.  I think it is literally impossible to design hard solo content for wow because it don't use action combat.  I don't know if anything was changed to wow's combat system.

    I think you have a fair point.  I run dungeon solo in GW2 which is designed for 5 man.  It is very fun.  I always wonder why don't developer put some effort in making challenging solo dungeons.

    I talk about grind because difficult don't mean time consuming.  Even if they put in dark soul type of action combat, people can beat it quickly and quit the game.  There probably need some mechanic to time lock the content(only allow to do once a day or once a week).

    Lastly the point I'm trying to make is best gear should absolutely be raid locked in "WoW".  I'm not talking about other games, I'm only talking about WoW.  Because for that specific game, defeating the hardest raid boss is the most iconic feat and requires the most effort.  Me personally, I just think it varies game to game.  


    The point you're trying to make is a point that's been addressed numerous times over then, and the subject of the original post suggesting that a game does not have a singular "best gear" and instead more specialized gear that focuses on respective gameplay paths.

    Not only that, but it's submission to a fault of the game rather than a perception that the game needs to improve it's systems.

    And It's no more impossible to make hard solo content than it is to make hard raid content. Many of the elements that goes into creating unique challenges for them have no unique trait forcing them to only work in a group or instanced environment.

    Also while true, difficult does not inherently mean time consuming, it's more about being engaging. Something worth spending your time on, learning, and replaying to master.

    Honestly, if you want a deeper suggestion around making questing something to engage players longer I have a different suggestion around it than simply trying to pose difficulty scaling.
    The irony is all the themepark haters calling wow solo only game...  And you are complaining wow don't provide enough solo content to keep people playing.

    Solo combat does not mean solo only game.  UO/SWG were solo combat games yet where interdependent and social.    
    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    Vermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AAAMEOW said:
    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.

    Hummmmmmm .... Why don't people who play high fantasy games where they can be gods among mortals just content themselves with second rate shit?

    Let's play that another way.. why can't you just do the raids for the fun and not get gear from them? Why can't you just be happy with that?
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,631
    edited June 9
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Why do you want gear simply because other people have better gear.  

    I played vanilla wow.  There are times I have been raiding and there are times I didn't.  I never care if raider have better gear when I don't raid.  I just enjoy the content without ever doing raid.  You usually have ways to progress like having multiple character, collecting recipes, making money etc.  And there are gear progression.  I can get better gear simply by doing dailys which take a few minute a day.  Just enjoy yourself and stop caring other people have better stuff than yourself.

    Hummmmmmm .... Why don't people who play high fantasy games where they can be gods among mortals just content themselves with second rate shit?

    Let's play that another way.. why can't you just do the raids for the fun and not get gear from them? Why can't you just be happy with that?
    The whole point is progression.  There need to be gear progression so people can't skip all the content and kill the lich king right after the expansion is out.  I don't really care that much about the gear itself.  

    I play GW2 which don't have gear progression only cosmetic.  I'm quite shocked that many people care about cosmetic because I don't.  I just play.  That being said, I dont' think you are odd because many people care about gear even if it is just cosmetic.  

    I personally do like gear progression for all the content I do.  I just don't understand why people simply "have to have the best gear".  I'm perfectly fine being able to keep upgrading my gear, but I don't necessary need to have the best gear in the game.  
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    AAAMEOW said:
    I'm just saying-
    I shouldn't have to be any where due to a false claim you made up. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Here is the thing.

    A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.

    If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)

    I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
    So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards? 
    No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.

    Let me try this again.

    IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.

    What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.

    Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.

    That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.

    Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
    I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?

    We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.

    Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:

    "Raiders should get the best materials.
    Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc.
    Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.

    And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."

    Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare. :)

    Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.

    If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.

    Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.

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