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Why is gear raid locked if a small percentage of players raid

Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
edited June 5 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
I could guess the exclusivity factor for those players and the only real need for the gear is raids itself.

Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?  

PvP could have it's own track of gear and WoW did do this as far as I remember.  

Quest completionist may not need raid level gear if they are not raiding but they could get gear with unique cosmetics and more than ample stats.

Crafters suffer from usually having better gear end game being drops.  So crafting have limitations of not being an end game device. But who creates those legrndary items? Maybe there could be RNG to create legendary gear but cash shops.  People also hate RNG.  Needing raided items will limit this to crafters of raiding groups.  Maybe a quest that allows legendary items to be created once in while.  

What do you think about highest tier gear being locked behind raids?  Should there be alternative paths?
GdemamiShaigh
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Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,073
    Your question assumes that only a small percentage of players raid, but that is not always accurate. WoW, for example, has added LFR and various levels of raid difficulty, which has more people raiding. The number of people required to fill a raid team has gone down in some games (including WoW), which also increases the number of people raiding. There are ways to go back in time and do older raids (in WoW), which has more people raiding. And some people define raiding to include dungeon runs, which would add more to the number of people raiding. 

    I thought that needed correction. But I will keep to myself the opinion I have of your notions about player rewards and what little should be done to obtain them. You've heard me say it before.


    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,615
    I could guess the exclusivity factor for those players and the only real need for the gear is raids itself.

    Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?  

    PvP could have it's own track of gear and WoW did do this as far as I remember.  

    Quest completionist may not need raid level gear if they are not raiding but they could get gear with unique cosmetics and more than ample stats.

    Crafters suffer from usually having better gear end game being drops.  So crafting have limitations of not being an end game device. But who creates those legrndary items? Maybe there could be RNG to create legendary gear but cash shops.  People also hate RNG.  Needing raided items will limit this to crafters of raiding groups.  Maybe a quest that allows legendary items to be created once in while.  

    What do you think about highest tier gear being locked behind raids?  Should there be alternative paths?
    As best I have been able to figure out, this is mainly the result of elitist pricks that feel the need to satisfy their own ego with having the "best gear" so they can look down their nose at the lowly filthy casuals.

    And they will constantly complain on every form of media outlet they have available to them to the game developers to make this happen while attacking anyone that may object their demands.

    The problem is that, these systems never work well in conjunction with each other.

    IE: Raids and Crafting Systems, since the best gear can only come from the Raids (otherwise no one will Raid), the crafting becomes mainly pointless, and a rich players pastime, often serving as nothing more than a means to make twink gear. 

    Personally, I think the content needs to fit the game. Nothing worse than trying to shoehorn content into a game after it's made.

    Check out GW2, to see all your ideas personified.. pretty much.. everything you just said.. put into the game.. with all the problems as well.
    GdemamiGorweDarkpigeonCazrielAlBQuirkyNeanderthalZenJelly
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,004
    This depends on the game. WoW always attached a gear treadmill to instances.

    But in GW2 raids for example, you just use gear that is available to anyone. The rewards here are raid exclusive skins (not better in stats) and an alternative way to earn gear, if you don't care about crafting or pvp etc. In GW2, you can basically earn endgame gear through crafting , any form of pvp, world bosses and instances.

    Imo the better design makes sure that players can keep doing their preferred gameplay and have a way to earn endgame stat gear through that.

    Octagon7711KyleranAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,341
    Amathe said:
    Your question assumes that only a small percentage of players raid, but that is not always accurate. WoW, for example, has added LFR and various levels of raid difficulty, which has more people raiding. The number of people required to fill a raid team has gone down in some games (including WoW), which also increases the number of people raiding. There are ways to go back in time and do older raids (in WoW), which has more people raiding. And some people define raiding to include dungeon runs, which would add more to the number of people raiding. 

    I thought that needed correction. But I will keep to myself the opinion I have of your notions about player rewards and what little should be done to obtain them. You've heard me say it before.


    I still think less people raid than people who do raid.

    Also, just because World of Warcraft has added things to help bolster participation in its raiding content doesn't mean that suddenly a HUGE influx of raiders take part nor does it take into account that many mmorpg's haven't made their raids "all inclusive."
    Darkpigeon



  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,693
    I don't have a problem with the best gear coming from raids, the only problem I have is people with raid gear saying regular content is too easy and should be harder, as if everyone uses raid gear.
    k61977gunklackerobiiUngoodAlBQuirky

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,073
    edited June 5
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    SovrathHatefullAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 5,891
    edited June 5
    Your assumption is false. It assumes that raids are the top end of difficulty slider, which they don't have to be. The problem is that the devs also assumed this. They are simply a more large scale dungeon.

    As for the question itself, it's so the elitist pricks get satisfied. Keep in mind that elitist pricks are often whales too. So it makes perfect sense to have a carrot for them.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,073
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    You are just making assumptions about the percentages.  

    But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.

    Phry

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,678
    edited June 5
    Don't be silly, the best gear belongs in the cash shop, preferably coupled with a low percentage of success RNG mechanic.

    Havent any of you been paying attention the past 10 years or so? Bunch o' noobs.

    :D




    /Ducks 



    AmatheGorweVermillion_RaventhalMendelUngoodesc-joconnoracidbloodHatefullAAAMEOWSteelhelmand 2 others.

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    You are just making assumptions about the percentages.  

    But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.

    I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid.  I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.

    Subjective and personal preference.  The same argument could be made with PvP.  Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
    Cazriel
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    You are just making assumptions about the percentages.  

    But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.

    I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid.  I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.

    Subjective and personal preference.  The same argument could be made with PvP.  Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 2,995
    Ultimately, raiding in a PvE game is the biggest carrot in the developer's bag.  The more people that are needed to take down a mob, the higher the reward.  Look at any game with a variety of end-game raids.  The raids that are done the most generally have the best reward.  Those with a perceived lesser reward aren't nearly as popular.  Psychology 101.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 5,891
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    You are just making assumptions about the percentages.  

    But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.

    I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid.  I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.

    Subjective and personal preference.  The same argument could be made with PvP.  Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
    Yes, for PvP gear. And only for PvP gear. Though I see merit in PvP not having (gear) progression.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 805
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    Dagon13ghrendel7bcbully
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    Gorwe said:
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    I still think less people raid than people who do raid. 
    I think there may be a typo in there. Shades of "“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

    I don't have all the numbers. But I am confident a lot more people raid in WoW now than used to (because I played the game).

    Not every mmorpg is WoW or like WoW, true. But that is what happens when the OP starts from a generality as to all mmorpgs having a "small percentage" of raiders. If you object to overgeneralizations, I would begin there. 
    So if a small percentage raid generally raid... doesnt that mean a small percentage excluding WoW?  Can you obtain top gear through casual LFR? 


    You are just making assumptions about the percentages.  

    But I'm not having that conversation with you today, because I will end up ranting about people who want ez-mode solo hand out games.

    I am going by old percentages that said under 10 percent raid.  I am also under the impression that LFR do yield highest tier gear.

    Subjective and personal preference.  The same argument could be made with PvP.  Do you feel like you should be forced to PvP to get gear?
    Yes, for PvP gear. And only for PvP gear. Though I see merit in PvP not having (gear) progression.
    Why should raid gear be usable in PvE and PvP but PvP gear is only PvP gear?
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    Didn't know a video game is a job.  
    gunklackerHatefull
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 128
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    Dont know much about the real world do you ?
    Vermillion_RaventhalGdemamiKyleranAlBQuirky
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,547
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    There are so many reasons why what you said makes no sense. :D
    Vermillion_RaventhalKyleranHatefull


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,989
    OP if you dont want to get the best gear then quit crying about it.  You know in a competitive bowling league they only give out Trophies to the top teams and not to the other 10+ teams that sucked ass.   Games have become boring as fuck just handing out Trophies to everyone.  Why do you think there have been no new AAA MMORPGS from US studios?  Because they cater to the I AM ENTITLED crowd that bring up bullshit arguments like this WHY SHOULD PEOPLE WHO RAID GET THE BEST GEAR.  Then when they hand out gear like Candy on Halloween no one wants to play your fucking game after 2 months.  What needs to happen is post like this need to be completely ignored because if you want a Halloween game you can play D3 if you want to play an MMORPG that has staying power you are going to have to put your big boy pants on and raid.   

    Classic WOW is proving this point very well.   Catering to casuals and entitled players is a losing proposition.  If you dont want to step up O well you dont deserve raid gear. 
    Amathebcbully
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 805
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    Didn't know a video game is a job.  
    I didn't know games should sling out gear without triumph or challenge like participation trophies.

    Why are more people interested in who is in the Super Bowl than what peewee league is playing another?  
    bcbully
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    Didn't know a video game is a job.  
    I didn't know games should sling out gear without triumph or challenge like participation trophies.

    Why are more people interested in who is in the Super Bowl than what peewee league is playing another?  
    Lol it is not even the same.  Find me the fantasy where the main characters chain kill the big evil over and over again until they are decked out in the same gear. 

    Again the same said could be said for PvP.  Why can't it be the key holder for gear only?
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,615
    blamo2000 said:
    Why do people in hard jobs make more money?
    They aren't.

    So care to explain to me why some douche nozzle in an office that can spend half their day doing jack shit gets paid more than the on-site laborer that is busting their ass laying brick in 110 degree heat.
    GdemamigunklackerKyleranHatefullAlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,754
    edited June 5
    danwest58 said:
    OP if you dont want to get the best gear then quit crying about it.  You know in a competitive bowling league they only give out Trophies to the top teams and not to the other 10+ teams that sucked ass.   Games have become boring as fuck just handing out Trophies to everyone.  Why do you think there have been no new AAA MMORPGS from US studios?  Because they cater to the I AM ENTITLED crowd that bring up bullshit arguments like this WHY SHOULD PEOPLE WHO RAID GET THE BEST GEAR.  Then when they hand out gear like Candy on Halloween no one wants to play your fucking game after 2 months.  What needs to happen is post like this need to be completely ignored because if you want a Halloween game you can play D3 if you want to play an MMORPG that has staying power you are going to have to put your big boy pants on and raid.   

    Classic WOW is proving this point very well.   Catering to casuals and entitled players is a losing proposition.  If you dont want to step up O well you dont deserve raid gear. 
    I think repeated raids are lazy design in the first place. Legendary shit should be limited and hard to find.  Not a once stop shop to be done over and over after you studied on YouTube.

    You go fight a legendary creature it has some items.  Clear it out and it's gone for good.  Something else spawn somewhere in the world with random setup.  
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 15,986
    More importantly,it is not about locking gear behind a difficult wall it is more about the developer THINKING this is the only way to do difficulty.
    sticking the term RAID in front of content does not mean diddly squat,it just means it is a wall that requires more people than should be needed.

    Many games do this same idea,it is a dumb one,one that says the developer doesn't know how to create difficulty otherwise.You only NEED 4-6 people to partake in ANY form of difficulty.You need a tank,a healer,a debuff/buffer and a dps.This is why 6 was consider a good normal for a group size,allows you to add in 2 others of your choice.So for example in FFXI we would have a Thief,a great puller and also utilized the ability to transfer more hate on to the tank.
    I am not even sure any other game besides FFXI had a class that would help transfer hate in a setup formation,some do it lazy like with a simple spell or a solo act.

    So for years 6 was the normal and i have seen NO reason what so ever to break away from 5/6 or even down to 4.

    I feel after a short time,the term RAID became more of a stigma,a term to use to brag that you did something amazing when in reality,especially in a gear based game,you did VERY little other than wear top notch gear.

    Long winded point,some devs been doing it wrong for a long time,time to wise up and change from poor ideas.


    Vermillion_Raventhal

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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