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Dave Brevik's It Lurks Below Game Leaves Steam Early Access - MMORPG.com News

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  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    edited May 2019
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    lahnmirPhryBeansnBread
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,865
    It looks like an old school game called Dig Dug......
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,014
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    DMKano said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  

    The thing is there are gameplay design features that work far better in 2D than 3D (and vice versa).

    For example if tetris was 3D - it would suck. 3D pacman... heh

    Or 3D terraria etc.....


    2D gameplay can deliver a very specific experience than cannot be replicated in 3D
    And those games aren't topping anyone's sales charts since 3D arrived.

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    For 3D to be cheaper, it'd have to be pretty primitive 3D and very low-poly.  Graphics are the most expensive thing about making games today, and it's because the costs have exploded as what's considered "standard" poly counts have increased.

    If 2D were more expensive in actual real-world practice, its home wouldn't be with indie startups.
    Sovrath

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.

    image
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,606
    DMKano said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  

    The thing is there are gameplay design features that work far better in 2D than 3D (and vice versa).

    For example if tetris was 3D - it would suck. 3D pacman... heh

    Or 3D terraria etc.....


    2D gameplay can deliver a very specific experience than cannot be replicated in 3D
    And those games aren't topping anyone's sales charts since 3D arrived.
    But that isn't true at all. Terarria has sold more than most companies would hope their entire library of 3D games would sell ever (it's currently sitting at 10 to 20 million copies sold on steam alone (it's also on consoles). Plus Terarria came out after Minecraft, so it isn't like the 3D counterpart came out and all the sales just went away. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  

    The thing is there are gameplay design features that work far better in 2D than 3D (and vice versa).

    For example if tetris was 3D - it would suck. 3D pacman... heh

    Or 3D terraria etc.....


    2D gameplay can deliver a very specific experience than cannot be replicated in 3D
    And those games aren't topping anyone's sales charts since 3D arrived.


    Ehm....

    "Within a month, Terraria had sold over 432,000 copies. By the time of the 1.3 update in June 2015, over 12 million copies ofTerraria were sold across all platforms, with that number increasing to over 25 million by October 2018. By early 2019, that figure had increased to over 27 million, including 12 million on PC."

    Yeah about that....
    Go ahead and prove Terraria would've sold less if the devs had built a 3D game.  Your copies sold, on the grand scheme of gaming, is still rather small.

    This game garnered 27 million...  It only took it 4 years.  If a new Bioware title came out and only managed 27 million copies sold over 4 years, Bioware would be no more.  So, thanks for proving my point about it being retro/dated and, therefore, niche?

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    DMKano said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  

    The thing is there are gameplay design features that work far better in 2D than 3D (and vice versa).

    For example if tetris was 3D - it would suck. 3D pacman... heh

    Or 3D terraria etc.....


    2D gameplay can deliver a very specific experience than cannot be replicated in 3D
    And those games aren't topping anyone's sales charts since 3D arrived.
    But that isn't true at all. Terarria has sold more than most companies would hope their entire library of 3D games would sell ever (it's currently sitting at 10 to 20 million copies sold on steam alone (it's also on consoles). Plus Terarria came out after Minecraft, so it isn't like the 3D counterpart came out and all the sales just went away. 
    Actually, it's not impressive unless you specifically seek out low-budget, niche/indie, or relatively unsuccessful 3D titles to intentionally make it so by comparison.  Anthem sold more than that in its first year, and it was universally noted as a bad (or mediocre, at best) game.

    In the grand scheme of gaming, it's a highly niche item.  Period.  Because the industry at large has moved on from 2D.

    EDIT- this is NOT like vinyl albums or some such.  There's no fidelity necessarily lost in a move to 3D.  Certainly no objective quality necessarily lost.

    image
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,014
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Tiller said:

    Amathe said:

    For a moment I thought I had travelled in time to the very earliest days of gaming.



    Have you ever heard of a game called Terraria?
    Now I have. ;) 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That's because those controls have a tendency to become unwieldy for humans to use at such a fast pace with the extra axis added.  In the context of our conversation (remember, this started because some posted clutching their pearls about Suzie saying she can't do 2D anymore), this isn't very relevant.  All those extra moves haven't spring boarded 2D fighters into the forefront of the industry.  Indeed, no 2D title is at the forefront in terms of relevance or popularity, and that's exactly the point.

    Also (allow me some enlightening of my own):

    Dargon Ball Xenoverse




    image
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,014
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That's because those controls have a tendency to become unwieldy for humans to use at such a fast pace with the extra axis added.  In the context of our conversation (remember, this started because some posted clutching their pearls about Suzie saying she can't do 2D anymore), this isn't very relevant.  All those extra moves haven't spring boarded 2D fighters into the forefront of the industry.  Indeed, no 2D title is at the forefront in terms of relevance or popularity, and that's exactly the point.

    Also (allow me some enlightening of my own):

    Dargon Ball Xenoverse




    Ohh, I know we’re going OT now haha. Xenoverse does indeed comes close, but not quite and at about half the speed (I won’t go further OT on mentioning moves that control the space in which to fight by creating danger zones or area specific choke points). And I have a big love for 2D so I am unashamedly biased ;) Another good example would be bullet hell shooters, Ikaruga 3D would be impossible.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    MadFrenchie
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,020


    Lets not forget 



    I think its safe to say everyone here loves this game ? Yes



    Err...what game is that?

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That's because those controls have a tendency to become unwieldy for humans to use at such a fast pace with the extra axis added.  In the context of our conversation (remember, this started because some posted clutching their pearls about Suzie saying she can't do 2D anymore), this isn't very relevant.  All those extra moves haven't spring boarded 2D fighters into the forefront of the industry.  Indeed, no 2D title is at the forefront in terms of relevance or popularity, and that's exactly the point.

    Also (allow me some enlightening of my own):

    Dargon Ball Xenoverse




    Ohh, I know we’re going OT now haha. Xenoverse does indeed comes close, but not quite and at about half the speed (I won’t go further OT on mentioning moves that control the space in which to fight by creating danger zones or area specific choke points). And I have a big love for 2D so I am unashamedly biased ;) Another good example would be bullet hell shooters, Ikaruga 3D would be impossible.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That goes back to my aforementioned unwieldy feature when you try to add in another axis and maintain the same number of moves at the same speed.  Our brains struggle to keep up.  If we could, do you think 2D fighters would be the choice of most gamers?  I don't think it would, personally, as evidenced by how nearly every other genre has moved on from 2D almost completely.

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,208
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    Oh I don't know about that. I think you are very correct in that immersion as far as "real world" is better supported in 3d, but hearing people comment on 2d games it seems they often point out how horrible they look. That's aesthetics.

    Also, "yeah" 2D is far better for things like spatial awareness.


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    Sovrath said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    Oh I don't know about that. I think you are very correct in that immersion as far as "real world" is better supported in 3d, but hearing people comment on 2d games it seems they often point out how horrible they look. That's aesthetics.

    Also, "yeah" 2D is far better for things like spatial awareness.


    Well, very few 2D games don't also go the "retro" route, which is ugly compared to games like BDO, and I don't think anyone could  makea strong case for objective disagreement (think about Underrail compared to, say, Breath of the Wild).

    However, the differences in 2D and 3D go far beyond that to affect the visual experience in other ways.  Ways I feel would surface even if you offered these same folks an objectively beautiful 2D game.

    image
  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    Kyleran said:


    Lets not forget 



    I think its safe to say everyone here loves this game ? Yes



    Err...what game is that?
    dARKEST DUNGEON shambler boss fight. If you haven't played Darkest Dungeon yet we can't be friends
    TalraekkIlayaSovrath
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,020

    Tiller said:



    Amathe said:


    For a moment I thought I had travelled in time to the very earliest days of gaming.






    Have you ever heard of a game called Terraria?



    Nope. Looked it up just now, seems 12M plus have bought it, at $9.98 I might as well add it to my Steam collection of games I'll probably never find time to play, it will be in good company.

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,631
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  

    The thing is there are gameplay design features that work far better in 2D than 3D (and vice versa).

    For example if tetris was 3D - it would suck. 3D pacman... heh

    Or 3D terraria etc.....


    2D gameplay can deliver a very specific experience than cannot be replicated in 3D
    And those games aren't topping anyone's sales charts since 3D arrived.


    Ehm....

    "Within a month, Terraria had sold over 432,000 copies. By the time of the 1.3 update in June 2015, over 12 million copies ofTerraria were sold across all platforms, with that number increasing to over 25 million by October 2018. By early 2019, that figure had increased to over 27 million, including 12 million on PC."

    Yeah about that....
    Don't forget Factorio.

    The graphics in this game look really good to me. I like the art style. I hear the Michael Bay arguments for big glitzy graphics, but I'm more of a Wes Anderson fan and like substance over flash. Immersion is a total package for me, not just a pretty face on a glamour shot.
    JeffSpicoli
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,270
    Kyleran said:


    Lets not forget 



    I think its safe to say everyone here loves this game ? Yes



    Err...what game is that?
    That's Darkest Dungeon a fantastic game . I highly recommend it.
    JeffSpicoliIlayaSovrath

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,014
    edited May 2019
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That's because those controls have a tendency to become unwieldy for humans to use at such a fast pace with the extra axis added.  In the context of our conversation (remember, this started because some posted clutching their pearls about Suzie saying she can't do 2D anymore), this isn't very relevant.  All those extra moves haven't spring boarded 2D fighters into the forefront of the industry.  Indeed, no 2D title is at the forefront in terms of relevance or popularity, and that's exactly the point.

    Also (allow me some enlightening of my own):

    Dargon Ball Xenoverse




    Ohh, I know we’re going OT now haha. Xenoverse does indeed comes close, but not quite and at about half the speed (I won’t go further OT on mentioning moves that control the space in which to fight by creating danger zones or area specific choke points). And I have a big love for 2D so I am unashamedly biased ;) Another good example would be bullet hell shooters, Ikaruga 3D would be impossible.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That goes back to my aforementioned unwieldy feature when you try to add in another axis and maintain the same number of moves at the same speed.  Our brains struggle to keep up.  If we could, do you think 2D fighters would be the choice of most gamers?  I don't think it would, personally, as evidenced by how nearly every other genre has moved on from 2D almost completely.
    Aww, many genres have but many haven’t. Lets see:

    Platforming games. They all went 3D but most are back at 2D. At the forefront you can find games like Celeste, Super Meat Boy, Iconoclasts etc. A big 3D one might be Mario but that series is embracing 2D just as much.

    Bullet hell games. All are 2D afaik.

    Puzzle games. Some are 2D specific, some are 3D specific, the latter didn’t take over the first though. Famous examples would be Luminees, Puyo Puyo and of course Tetris.

    Beat em Ups. Were 2D, had a 3D craze but went back to mostly fighting on a 2D plane. Good examples would be King of Fighters, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, hell even Mortal Kombat went back to 2D. Famous 3D examples would of course be Soul Calibur, Tekken and Dead or Alive.

    All games mentioned above really aren’t taking a backseat to 3D games in their respective genre, they probably rise above them actually.

    In the end its just taste, many games work better in 3D, but saying that 3D is simply better isn’t true at all. I am also heavily biased like stated earlier so there is that ;)

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    Ever notice how the same 2 dudes keep showing up in the same type of threads to fight some sort of imaginary fight that noone is really that intense about except for them ? Like some sort of wwe MMORPG tag team  :D




    NephethlahnmirScotIlaya
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nyctelios said:
    When folks are talking about 2D vs 3D, their opinion isn't concerned with aesthetic beauty.  It's spatial awareness/immersion.  3D is superior in that space to 2D, which is why games have largely moved on.


    I get that 2D is cheaper...  Sometimes, you actually do get what you pay for with these things.  
    3D is cheaper, not 2D, 2D requires all sprite to be manually made.

    On 3D you only model and rig a model once. After that the same model can be used for any sort of animation with it's base already finished.

    And that's why you see many 3D games out there - it is cheaper. Ask anyone working on the industry.

    Edit to add: Also, you can use multiple rigs and skeletons, you can also purchase assets already done or outsource them since it won't break aesthetics to outsource a rig or a skeleton while outsourcing graphical effects / sprites / UI can hurt your overall art design.

    Susie didn't mention anything you are claiming, so I'll take your word as only yours and yours alone.
    Agree. Like Kano above it also depends on the type of game whether or not to use 3D. And when it comes to spatial awareness, lets see if someone can find a 3D fighter where spatial awareness is more crucial then in a 2D fighter like Blazblue or Guilty Gear. These games are all about zoning in a way that would be completely impossible in a 3D space. 

    Also, I love sprites and some good old parallax scrolling, when done right its the most gorgeous thing there is.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    How could that be possible?  You just have to zone in a 3D space, using obstacles that are usually intentionally placed for just that by the devs.  I do it all the time in Mordhau, all it requires is environment hit detection.

    If we're using the same meaning for "zoning," that is.  Smite, a 3D game, has tons of zoning powers and potential.
    Ahhhh time for enlightening. I know of not a single 3D game that has the amount of positioning moves these 2D fighters have: regular jumps, double jumps, hyper jumps, dashes back and forth, instant cancelling of any of those to stay locked in position, double dashes, charged dashes. All of the above just to navigate a 2D space. You won’t find it in a 3D game because it would become one big navigational mess and the camera couldn’t handle it properly. And I am pretty sure I missed half of the moves to be honest. Its like ballet, on speed, with neon lights. And its glorious.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That's because those controls have a tendency to become unwieldy for humans to use at such a fast pace with the extra axis added.  In the context of our conversation (remember, this started because some posted clutching their pearls about Suzie saying she can't do 2D anymore), this isn't very relevant.  All those extra moves haven't spring boarded 2D fighters into the forefront of the industry.  Indeed, no 2D title is at the forefront in terms of relevance or popularity, and that's exactly the point.

    Also (allow me some enlightening of my own):

    Dargon Ball Xenoverse




    Ohh, I know we’re going OT now haha. Xenoverse does indeed comes close, but not quite and at about half the speed (I won’t go further OT on mentioning moves that control the space in which to fight by creating danger zones or area specific choke points). And I have a big love for 2D so I am unashamedly biased ;) Another good example would be bullet hell shooters, Ikaruga 3D would be impossible.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That goes back to my aforementioned unwieldy feature when you try to add in another axis and maintain the same number of moves at the same speed.  Our brains struggle to keep up.  If we could, do you think 2D fighters would be the choice of most gamers?  I don't think it would, personally, as evidenced by how nearly every other genre has moved on from 2D almost completely.
    Aww, many genres have but many haven’t. Lets see:

    Platforming games. They all went 3D but most are back at 2D. At the forefront you can find games like Celeste, Super Meat Boy, Iconoclasts etc. A big 3D one might be Mario but that series is embracing 2D just as much.

    Bullet hell games. All are 2D afaik.

    Puzzle games. Some are 2D specific, some are 3D specific, the latter didn’t take over the first though. Famous examples would be Luminees, Puyo Puyo and of course Tetris.

    Beat em Ups. Were 2D, had a 3D craze but went back to mostly fighting on a 2D plane. Good examples would be King of Fighters, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, hell even Mortal Kombat went back to 2D. Famous 3D examples would of course be Soul Calibur, Tekken and Dead or Alive.

    All games mentioned above really aren’t taking a backseat to 3D games in their respective genre, they probably rise above them actually.

    In the end its just taste, many games work better in 3D, but saying that 3D is simply better isn’t true at all. I am also heavily biased like stated earlier so there is that ;)

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Those genres are fairly minuscule in the grand scheme of the industry:

     Platforming/puzzle games fall under the tiny 3.6% "all others" for 2018:

    www.theesa.com › EF2018_FINALPDF
    2018 Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry

    Fighting was only 6%.  For comparison, shooters and action games 25.9% And 21.9%, respectively.

    The industry is dominated by genres that aren't held to 2D by mechanics.

    image
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,553
    DMKano said:

    SBFord said:

    I don't get the "magic" of these 2D retro graphics. Could be the greatest gameplay in history and I still couldn't -- or wouldn't -- play it. I'm a graphics snob. D:





    Terraria is such an amazing game though. You are missing out.

    Terraria is a great game and would reccomend anyone who liked it to play Crea , which i liked a bit more ...



    JeffSpicoli
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