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MMO with no leveling

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,654
    Lol, so I guess you give up.  Either you can admit that you can still face challenges without character progression or you can claim that character skill is progression which invalidates the whole other side of the argument of levelless game not having progression and not a MMORPG.  
    Nah. It's just that it has been explained to you in this and many other threads hundreds of times but you refuse to hear it.

    IDK what your level phobia is all about TBH. It's weird. It's even weirder that you don;t seem to understand that they are just one form of progression and that RPGs are all abut progression. Maybe it's the word "level" that frightens you? Call them Joe or Bill if that helps you but something like levels that accomplishes the all important progression needs to be in an RPG to be an RPG.

    Unless you've swallowed hook, line and sinker the horseshit notion that "end game" is the RPG. If that's you I've got a bridge for sale. Send me a PM if you want to buy it.
    ScorchienAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Iselin said:
    Lol, so I guess you give up.  Either you can admit that you can still face challenges without character progression or you can claim that character skill is progression which invalidates the whole other side of the argument of levelless game not having progression and not a MMORPG.  
    Nah. It's just that it has been explained to you in this and many other threads hundreds of times but you refuse to hear it.

    IDK what your level phobia is all about TBH. It's weird. It's even weirder that you don;t seem to understand that they are just one form of progression and that RPGs are all abut progression. Maybe it's the word "level" that frightens you? Call them Joe or Bill if that helps you but something like levels that accomplishes the all important progression needs to be in an RPG to be an RPG.

    Unless you've swallowed hook, line and sinker the horseshit notion that "end game" is the RPG. If that's you I've got a bridge for sale. Send me a PM if you want to buy it.
    1. I don't care about progressionless MMORPG being made.

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 

    I am just calling BS. People come into post derailing conversations because they are protective of their traditions. Like developers will just instantly make a game off some forum post. The heretics must be banished.  

    A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes.

    Again the implication that progession makes MMORPG MMORPG.  Nobody can even give me how much progression is required by their own definitions.  Can you even answer that?  

    Yes, the person who is open to most ideas is frightened.  But the people who talk like people bringing up the idea are heretics and need to be banished to BR lol.
    GdemamiAenghasSteelhelm
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,654

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    GdemamiSteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    What are you talking about child.. there was progression. Zelda was loaded with all kinds of progression. Full to bursting with the shit.

    Sure.. nothing stops you, nothing stops you from playing the same level of Pac Man, on repeat for the end of time either, beyond.. oh right.. a lack of progression which makes it boring as fuck.
    Again, you are still progressing through a story.  You are still able to complete dungeons.  You are still able to raid.  You are still able to do the trappings of MMORPG like housing, role playing, RvR, PvP.  

    Uh, you are kind of making my point.  Pacman doesn't level up.  He does progressively harder content.  Nothing stops a levelless MMORPG from having progressively harder and harder content. Just like Pacman. 
    Playing Pac Man a game of playing one board at a time, until one or two things happen, You either cap your skill level, or you beat the game, at which point, you stop playing.

    Which kinda makes my point, that progressioness games become boring as fuck and people quit them in short order. This is great for single buy games, where you the game, and the developer does not need to give a shit how long you are entertained for.

    Which, in case you were STILL wondering, is precisely why MMORPG's are not made like Pac Man.


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,654
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Ungood
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    What are you talking about child.. there was progression. Zelda was loaded with all kinds of progression. Full to bursting with the shit.

    Sure.. nothing stops you, nothing stops you from playing the same level of Pac Man, on repeat for the end of time either, beyond.. oh right.. a lack of progression which makes it boring as fuck.
    Again, you are still progressing through a story.  You are still able to complete dungeons.  You are still able to raid.  You are still able to do the trappings of MMORPG like housing, role playing, RvR, PvP.  

    Uh, you are kind of making my point.  Pacman doesn't level up.  He does progressively harder content.  Nothing stops a levelless MMORPG from having progressively harder and harder content. Just like Pacman. 
    Playing Pac Man a game of playing one board at a time, until one or two things happen, You either cap your skill level, or you beat the game, at which point, you stop playing.

    Which kinda makes my point, that progressioness games become boring as fuck and people quit them in short order. This is great for single buy games, where you the game, and the developer does not need to give a shit how long you are entertained for.

    Which, in case you were STILL wondering, is precisely why MMORPG's are not made like Pac Man.


    Lol, I don't care why they are not made.  The reason why MMORPG are made certain ways has a lot to do with money men who have largely abandoned the genre. 

    My whole point is that they can be made and would play just like any other MMORPG. The OPs idea isn't a BR or Battle Arena.

    If you watched someone play a progressionless MMORPG without UI, and numbers visible you couldn't tell the difference. 
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    What are you talking about child.. there was progression. Zelda was loaded with all kinds of progression. Full to bursting with the shit.

    Sure.. nothing stops you, nothing stops you from playing the same level of Pac Man, on repeat for the end of time either, beyond.. oh right.. a lack of progression which makes it boring as fuck.
    Again, you are still progressing through a story.  You are still able to complete dungeons.  You are still able to raid.  You are still able to do the trappings of MMORPG like housing, role playing, RvR, PvP.  

    Uh, you are kind of making my point.  Pacman doesn't level up.  He does progressively harder content.  Nothing stops a levelless MMORPG from having progressively harder and harder content. Just like Pacman. 
    Playing Pac Man a game of playing one board at a time, until one or two things happen, You either cap your skill level, or you beat the game, at which point, you stop playing.

    Which kinda makes my point, that progressioness games become boring as fuck and people quit them in short order. This is great for single buy games, where you the game, and the developer does not need to give a shit how long you are entertained for.

    Which, in case you were STILL wondering, is precisely why MMORPG's are not made like Pac Man.


    Lol, I don't care why they are not made.  The reason why MMORPG are made certain ways has a lot to do with money men who have largely abandoned the genre. 

    My whole point is that they can be made and would play just like any other MMORPG. The OPs idea isn't a BR or Battle Arena.

    If you watched someone play a progressionless MMORPG without UI, and numbers visible you couldn't tell the difference. 
    "I bet if we game people not a single damn reason to do anything in this game, they would play the fuck out of it" .. said.. ONLY you.

    Everyone else realized.. they would not play that shit.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,051
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    I don't play MOBA, but I thought MOBA have progression.  You fight mobs to gain gold to buy stronger weapon.

    But I think the main point is every match in MOBA last 1 hour long.  But for MMORPG your character can last thousands of play hour.  That really is the difference.

    Also it is weird a "pve" rpg game have no progression.  For pvp it make more sense.  I think someone mention before planetside 2 have no level.  But I'm sure there are probably some minecraft server which share your ideology.
      
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,243
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    Bullshit. Adventure had gear progression. You adventured to find better gear to go deeper. Have you played these games you're citing?
    blamo2000

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,243
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
    IselinKyleranUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,339
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Horizontal progression still has progression.
    Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.

    It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
    Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
    I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.

    For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
    But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.

    AenghasGdemamiSteelhelm

    Once upon a time....

  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 69
    AlBQuirky said:
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
    That is ok, it wouldn't be for you. I'm sure there are game designers out there that could make it appealing to people who can see beyond vertical progression.

    This is just tiring. Everyone can agree it is possible, I hear loud and clear it wouldn't interest everyone. Nothing is being taken away from you all, WoW will still be the same when you wake up tomorrow. Game developers will keep ticking all the same boxes and we'll pretend we are puzzled that we keep getting the same games.
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,283
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not.  The game start at max level anyway.  And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
    Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.

    With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.


    IselinimmodiumAlBQuirkyVermillion_Raventhal

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,654
    edited June 2
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Horizontal progression still has progression.
    Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.

    It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
    Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
    I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.

    For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
    But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.

    IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.

    You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.

    The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."

    The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,654
    Kyleran said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not.  The game start at max level anyway.  And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
    Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.

    With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.


    I don't quit until a bit after that: that's what alts are for. 
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    My first reaction was to say no thanks not interested in a game without any progression at all Viet character or skill or gear whatever. However when I looked back at some games I had a lot of fun with  games really old to be sure more action type games such as Master blaster or other old arcade/system games. How this would translate into an MMO and still keep the RPG I don't know.
    AlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,339
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Horizontal progression still has progression.
    Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.

    It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
    Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
    I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.

    For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
    But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.

    IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.

    You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.

    The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."

    The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
    You've got a good point, but I'd say that it's not really about "gear score."
    I think it's about "Power Gaps."

    Steelhelm

    Once upon a time....

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 863
    AlBQuirky said:
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
    This is interesting.  I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them.  I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev.  For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max.  To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same.  Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same.  I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.

    This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.  

    Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity?  Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends.  What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,339
    edited June 2
    blamo2000 said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
    This is interesting.  I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them.  I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev.  For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max.  To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same.  Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same.  I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.

    This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.  

    Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity?  Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends.  What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
    I especially like unusual builds when they are harder to play, but are very rewarding in playing them, when you get it right.
    In a fun factor sort of way.
    blamo2000AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Horizontal progression still has progression.
    Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.

    It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
    Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
    I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.

    For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
    But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.

    IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.

    You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.

    The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."

    The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
    Gear scores and item levels are vertical progression, along with levels. There are plenty of sources on the internet defining this. You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.


    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,666
    Aenghas said:
    I'm sure there are game designers out there that could make it appealing
    ...oh, you are sure? Based on what?

    There are not, apparently.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,666
    edited June 2
    Aenghas said:
    You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
    No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.

    That's what progress means - movement forward.  It is incremental, one way and direction only.

    It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.


    You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    2. I am into Horizontal progression sandboxes. 


    I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.

    "A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest.  Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the  scenes."

    A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?

    Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.


    If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious?  I mean you see other players running by.  He is turning in quest.  He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes.  Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it? 

    You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
    Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
    Horizontal progression still has progression.
    Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.

    It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
    Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
    I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.

    For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
    But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.

    IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.

    You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.

    The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."

    The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
    Horizontal progression does have shallow vertical progression.  The purpose of horizontal progression is to not have power gaps. So while you may get better armor, new abilities and etc. you are still are able to participate with veterans.  In PvP you can defend yourself against vet and in small groups overcome a vet.  You don't have 20 million HP while a newbie has 20.



    SteelhelmGdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Kyleran said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not.  The game start at max level anyway.  And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
    Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.

    With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.


    Maybe that says a lot about the content more so than progression. I fully enjoyed the first season of the Walking Dead game and wasn't leveling up killing 10 wolves to enjoy the content.
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