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MMO with no leveling

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,822
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Level scaling is in the top MMORPG.  While they aren't levelless they basically play like they are. 


    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited June 1
    Ungood said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    Lol only to a few.  So what is the minimum time to max progression for it to go from battle arena to MMORPG.

    LOL.. now you talking about time gated games. 

    But here is a heads up, if you don't have the skills to make it to the top of a PvP Arena game, you would not have the skills to do anything but suck at a skill gated MMORPG as well.
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 70
    learis1 said:
    Where's the repeat value? You certainly could do this for an MMO, but why??? With zero progression, once you beat something then why beat it again? For better gear? Well then you just introduced progression.

    I can't see how zero progression models would work for MMOs where monetary sustainability typically comes through payments people make over a long-term investment in the game. What long term appeal is there for zero progression? Pretty much just pvp I guess. But then why waste so much money making it an MMO in the first place when that's unecessary?
    Horizontal progression is still progression. Also time-sinks are introduced in more ways than just level/gear level grinds.

    Repeat value could come from several sources. Like in any game the first priority would have to be enjoyable content...you might want to do it more than once because it is fun. I think a well designed game would hopefully have people be open to rerunning a dungeon at least a few times regardless of upgrades. 

    One system could be that all mobs in the world drop currency with bosses dropping the most. The currency is needed to achieve any goals such as buying plots for land, or saddles that you need to tame mounts, or cosmetic gear that might change your class if you get all the pieces in a set and the new class alters your rotation. Engaging with content could then be any mix of being led by story, being led by what you want to do in the world, customisation or just curiosity. Maybe not compelling enough reason to play for all mmo players but large amounts of mmo players are already playing for these reasons.

    As to why make an mmo without levels? Because vertical progression has its downsides and it wouldn't hurt for a game to be designed that tried circumventing those problems. 
    Gdemamilearis1AlBQuirky
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 882
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Level scaling is in the top MMORPG.  While they aren't levelless they basically play like they are. 


    Well, good thing Classic will fix that and the endless millions of people that stopped playing the sophomoric, moronic children's games with no depth, complexity, or thought required that now pass as mmorpgs will finally have a home again.  And it will have glorious levels.  
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 70
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Every mmo on the market currently has elements of horizontal progression or cosmetic and achievement goals. Probably everyone here has enjoyed non-vertical progression content at some point. FFXIV currently has large chunks of this kind of content and the pvp currently has zero vertical progression although it isn't the focus of the game.

    No one has had the guts to commit to making an mmo that doesn't have levels that I know of because so many people are used to a system they can't see past. It is a bit of a Catch 22, no one wants to make something risky because people are vocally against something that isn't the norm so it never gets proven that things could work differently, then people claim that that is proof it can't be done differently.
    Gdemami
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,822
    Aenghas said:
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Every mmo on the market currently has elements of horizontal progression or cosmetic and achievement goals. Probably everyone here has enjoyed non-vertical progression content at some point. FFXIV currently has large chunks of this kind of content and the pvp currently has zero vertical progression although it isn't the focus of the game.

    No one has had the guts to commit to making an mmo that doesn't have levels that I know of because so many people are used to a system they can't see past. It is a bit of a Catch 22, no one wants to make something risky because people are vocally against something that isn't the norm so it never gets proven that things could work differently, then people claim that that is proof it can't be done differently.
    Make it fun and people will play it no matter how different it is. 
    Hatefull

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 70
    Aenghas said:
    So where is this list of MMOs that don't have levels but are successful?
    Every mmo on the market currently has elements of horizontal progression or cosmetic and achievement goals. Probably everyone here has enjoyed non-vertical progression content at some point. FFXIV currently has large chunks of this kind of content and the pvp currently has zero vertical progression although it isn't the focus of the game.

    No one has had the guts to commit to making an mmo that doesn't have levels that I know of because so many people are used to a system they can't see past. It is a bit of a Catch 22, no one wants to make something risky because people are vocally against something that isn't the norm so it never gets proven that things could work differently, then people claim that that is proof it can't be done differently.
    Make it fun and people will play it no matter how different it is. 
    I'd hope so :smile:
    Hatefull
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Gdemami said:
    Aenghas said:
    There could still be progression. 
    ....
    Same for dungeons, fight mechanics would always matter because there would be no way to cheese them just by being overpowered by level or item level. 
    You are contradicting yourself.

    If there is a progression, you will be able leverage that power advantage.


    It is retarded, you are just not thinking it through, that is all.



    It is really simple as there are basically 3 options only:

    1) You remove levels and keep other forms of progression in place - nothing will change and content will be still gated because of the other forms of progression.

    2) You remove levels along with all other forms of progression completely and you will have to come up with incentives replacement, good luck with that.

    3) You introduce world scaling that will take care of gated content, at least partially.


    No matter what, removing levels is pointless since that isn't an issue here, progression itself is. People still love progression and will happily grind for it though...thus removing it is retarded, it is why people play.
    Or you use difficulty and player skill as a gate. 
    Sounds like a Battle Arena game.
    Lol only to a few.  So what is the minimum time to max progression for it to go from battle arena to MMORPG.

    LOL.. now you talking about time gated games. 

    But here is a heads up, if you don't have the skills to make it to the top of a PvP Arena game, you would not have the skills to do anything but suck at a skill gated MMORPG as well.
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  

    Even if you said was true and the only thing separating a battle arena from a MMORPG is progession does that mean MMORPG become BAs at end game?  If max level at creation = battle arena whatever that is.  Does leveling up to max in 5 minutes qualify as MMORPG since you are progressing or does have to be 5 days or 5 weeks?

    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress.  Same way you do stuff in level scaling games.  You just do it. 

    It doesn't matter if you are end game by level, by paying for a boost or by default of logging on.  Not sure why it is hard to grasp.  Why wouldn't I be able to raid or go in a dungeon? Legend of Zelda had been doing it since what 86?


    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,765
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    gervaise1AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,765
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Ungoodgervaise1GdemamiAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,765
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    UngoodScorchienAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    GdemamiSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    GdemamiSteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    What are you talking about child.. there was progression. Zelda was loaded with all kinds of progression. Full to bursting with the shit.

    Sure.. nothing stops you, nothing stops you from playing the same level of Pac Man, on repeat for the end of time either, beyond.. oh right.. a lack of progression which makes it boring as fuck.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,765
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    Because we want progressively harder things to do - that's what it's all about. It's the same in well written fantasy fiction. All of it can be boiled down to "relatively weak hero-to-be grows and beats the UBG he didn't have a chance against at the beginning... the end."

    How exactly do you accomplish that without progression - be in the form of simple levels or some other progression scheme that hides the traditional D&D character level and replaces it with something else that accomplishes the same exact thing levels accomplish?
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids. 

    How?

    I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.

    Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking. 
    Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress. 


    Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.

    1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.

    2) You beat the game and thus, won.

    Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.


    So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character?  Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression.  You still had things to do.  

    And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world  your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left.  Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.  
    What are you talking about child.. there was progression. Zelda was loaded with all kinds of progression. Full to bursting with the shit.

    Sure.. nothing stops you, nothing stops you from playing the same level of Pac Man, on repeat for the end of time either, beyond.. oh right.. a lack of progression which makes it boring as fuck.
    Again, you are still progressing through a story.  You are still able to complete dungeons.  You are still able to raid.  You are still able to do the trappings of MMORPG like housing, role playing, RvR, PvP.  

    Uh, you are kind of making my point.  Pacman doesn't level up.  He does progressively harder content.  Nothing stops a levelless MMORPG from having progressively harder and harder content. Just like Pacman. 
    AmarantharGdemamiSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    Because we want progressively harder things to do - that's what it's all about. It's the same in well written fantasy fiction. All of it can be boiled down to "relatively weak hero-to-be grows and beats the UBG he didn't have a chance against at the beginning... the end."

    How exactly do you accomplish that without progression - be in the form of simple levels or some other progression scheme that hides the traditional D&D character level and replaces it with something else that accomplishes the same exact thing levels accomplish?
    How?  Same way you do content in the vast major of games without levels. If you want harder content you make harder content.  It"s not hard.  It does nor require levels.  Most MMORPG don't even have harder content until you get into dungeons and raids.  Level 1 goon is the same as level 100 goon if you are the same level.  
    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,765
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    Because we want progressively harder things to do - that's what it's all about. It's the same in well written fantasy fiction. All of it can be boiled down to "relatively weak hero-to-be grows and beats the UBG he didn't have a chance against at the beginning... the end."

    How exactly do you accomplish that without progression - be in the form of simple levels or some other progression scheme that hides the traditional D&D character level and replaces it with something else that accomplishes the same exact thing levels accomplish?
    How?  Same way you do content in the vast major of games without levels. If you want harder content you make harder content.  It"s not hard.  It does nor require levels.  Most MMORPG don't even have harder content until you get into dungeons and raids.  Level 1 goon is the same as level 100 goon if you are the same level.  
    I'll just leave you with two dictionary definitions and move along from this pointless discussion:

    noun: progression
    1. the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

      adjective
      adjective: pig-headed; adjective: pigheaded
      1. stupidly obstinate.
    Steelhelm
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena.  You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.  When I got to level 110 in WoW I didnt start playing a PvP Battle Arena.  In ESO isn't a battle arena because ever NPC you fight is your level.  This is why I ask people do they really know what they are talking about.  


    You really don't understand ESO do you? Have you even played it? Not only does ESO have leveling it has endless leveling with the Champion point passive abilities system, not to mention individual skill line leveling as well as crafting profession leveling. And no the mobs you fight are not "your level" they are all level 50 / CP 160 and you either get boosted to their level or not depending on your own level.

    I'm not sure you even understand the purpose or meaning of leveling: it is nothing but one of many progression methods and most modern MMOs have several of those happening simultaneously with gear progression, whether gated by levels or content, being the predominant form.

    It is ALL about progression in RPGs. And like I said before, it was not about that in the early lobby shooters - although even they had a type of progression in the form of finding weapon upgrades - as do modern BR games although it's only a temporary progression that goes away for your next match.

    So... games without leveling have always existed just not typically in the RPG side of things. We play RPGs for their progression and leveling is just one of those ways to progress. Being bothered by that one type of progression in RPGs is just fucking weird man.
    Irrelevant.  As I said before level scaling is the compromise.  In ESO you can tackle any quest you want because NPC are 1 to 1 with you.  I also played WoW prior expansion and ever NPC I faced was my level.  

    Just because there has been doesn't mean there has to be.  
    No, you can not tackle any content when you're a level 10 boosted to 50/CP 160. You can handle easy overland quest content but you can't handle anything even slightly more difficult until you have leveled up your skill lines, your CP passives and geared up. It is still very much about leveling. It is also a game where the basic character level has never been a gate for ability unlocks - those have always been in the individual skill line levels and that's exactly how it still is.

    WoW does their scaling differently - it's a tiered thing.

    The relevance is in you not even knowing what's happening under the hood while you use it as an example of a compromise.

    I do like the changes brought about by level scaling in that it does let players of different levels go to any zone and group with anyone. But you're sadly mistaken if you think those boosted level 10s are in any way, shape or form on an equal footing with fully leveled max CP players.

    The kind of utopian fantasy you and others have about a no leveling RPG where everyone is equal would be the most boring and pointless RPG in the history of game design - more a dystopia than a utopia. If you're talking casual lobby shooter though, you're right on the money because that's how they work.
    Exactly as I said it is compromise.  Never said there those games had no levels.  I said a levelless game would play basically the same.  The only reason I even brought them into is because people claim a levelless system would be a BR or PvP battle arena. It would just allow content to be accessible.  Using ESO for example gives a clearer picture for those who can't or won't understand.  

    People are bringing up PvP and BR simply because those types of games do the no leveling thing. Games with no leveling are not a new idea by any means. But applying that to RPGs misses the whole point of why we play RPGs and bringing up the dumbest part of RPGs - the "end game" also totally misses the point that this is a thing created to retain your continued $ and nothing else.

    You must have heard RPG players talk about the fun being in the journey haven't you?
    Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
    Because we want progressively harder things to do - that's what it's all about. It's the same in well written fantasy fiction. All of it can be boiled down to "relatively weak hero-to-be grows and beats the UBG he didn't have a chance against at the beginning... the end."

    How exactly do you accomplish that without progression - be in the form of simple levels or some other progression scheme that hides the traditional D&D character level and replaces it with something else that accomplishes the same exact thing levels accomplish?
    How?  Same way you do content in the vast major of games without levels. If you want harder content you make harder content.  It"s not hard.  It does nor require levels.  Most MMORPG don't even have harder content until you get into dungeons and raids.  Level 1 goon is the same as level 100 goon if you are the same level.  
    I'll just leave you with two dictionary definitions and move along from this pointless discussion:

    noun: progression
    1. the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

      adjective
      adjective: pig-headed; adjective: pigheaded
      1. stupidly obstinate.
    Lol, so I guess you give up.  Either you can admit that you can still face challenges without character progression or you can claim that character skill is progression which invalidates the whole other side of the argument of levelless game not having progression and not a MMORPG.  
    Gdemami
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