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MMO with no leveling

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  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,145
    Gdemami said:
    Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW.  Evidence: I played both.  I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
    ...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
    I gave you evidence.  You gave nothing to refute it.  Should be easy right.  So my evidence wins.  Modern MMORPG are less grindy than old MMORPG.

    Not sure why you give that troll breath man. You make good valid points and present defensible arguments, all that twit has is the lol button. He is a troll, nothing more. Worse than useless. Don't feed it.

    On to your point, I tend to agree. I feel like games used to be more about the journey than the end game. Generalizing, of course, but that is the feeling I have.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    It is not flawed, you are just so damn awful at reasoning and ability to articulate your thoughts.

    You remove levels, there will still be gear, resources or w/e power gaps that will gate the content.

    It has nothing to do with levels, what you are advocating for is world scaling.
    Steelhelm
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    I figured themepark MMO would become something more akin to looter shooters without the looting.  

    Quick leveling or to no levels  Classes with clear roles and distinct action roles.  32 player city hubs and with smaller open world. Solo and 2-8 man missions, 8 man dungeons and 20 man raids. Gear being more solutions and gated content keys. 
    Isn't it already happening?  I dont' play many games but I thought most major western mmorpg have pretty short leveling.  Many seemed as short as other shooter or ARPG.


    Kyleran
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,770
    RPGs are traditionally all about leveling and lobby shooters are not.

    I understand why some of you confuse the two since online RPGs have borrowed so heavily from shooter game play (think short duration scenario PvP with scoreboards - often with "level scaling" to minimize disparities) and shooters have done the same from RPGs (think permanent ability progression trees) more and more over the years.

    There have always been players who prefer one type over the other type. But only lately have I've been reading some people wanting all their games, be they shooters or RPGs, to be exactly the same according to their preference.

    The solution is easy: pick the type you like and play those exclusively and STFU about trying to change the other genre you don't really like in the first place to be like the one you do like.
    SteelhelmKyleranHatefull
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    Right they are not for everyone. I largely don't play MMORPG.  But a lot of people on this forum are not happy with the state of genre.  Yet as has been the case since I have been on these forums those with alternate ideas get told to play other games. 

    Used to be told to go play quake and it changes as the next hot online game type comes around.  It is basically an insult that your ideas don't belong and neither do you.  It is an asshole move because largely the people who say don't even understand the discussion.  Just different is bad.

    Sorry to tell you this but you can play a role in MMORPG without vertical progression because you have other players to play roles with. 90% of content played in the genre is levelless or level scaled.  MMORPG are not directly RPG.  

    You are going to tell me WoW would not be a MMORPG if everyone started at end game?  It would be the same game basically.


    It really depends on what the poster is asking for, doesn't it? I've seen my share of "play THIS game, instead!" posts and sometimes, they are warranted. Other times, I agree with you that they're 100% being a dick.

    An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.

    The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.

    The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    The formula is a flawed grandfathered mechanic. 
    What is the basis for this opinion? Specifics, please.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    You mean... like... progression?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    edited May 31
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    Right they are not for everyone. I largely don't play MMORPG.  But a lot of people on this forum are not happy with the state of genre.  Yet as has been the case since I have been on these forums those with alternate ideas get told to play other games. 

    Used to be told to go play quake and it changes as thenext hot online game type comes around.  It is basically an insult that your ideas don't belong and neither do you.  It is an asshole move because largely the people who say don't even understand the discussion.  Just different is bad.

    Sorry to tell you this but you can play a role in MMORPG without vertical progression because you have other players to play roles with. 90% of content played in the genre is levelless or level scaled.  MMORPG are not directly RPG.  

    You are going to tell me WoW would not be a MMORPG if everyone started at end game?  It would be the same game basically.


    It really depends on what the poster is asking for, doesn't it? I've seen my share of "play THIS game, instead!" posts and sometimes, they are warranted. Other times, I agree with you that they're 100% being a dick.

    An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.

    The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.

    The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."
    So you are basically saying RPG = numbers and gear score?

    Your saying if in WoW you took away levels and gear then made everything cosmetic drop it would stop being WoW?  Stops being an RPG with all the content and quest? It just becomes a BR? 

    I don't see it that way.  I guess you could say it still would have story progression. 

    It is interesting that as much as people talk about story and the like defining RPG.  It seems like people believe more in numbers and gear score.
    GdemamiAlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
    Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball.  Next quest you learn how to use firestorm.  Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.  
    This sounds like far, far, more tedious and aggravating than simply saying "At level 2 you can learn an additional spell, you can pick between Fire Ball and Ice Blast, at level 6 you can learn Fire Storm or Ice Storm" 

    I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.

    This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.
    Steelhelm
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 70
    Aenghas said:
    It could definitely work. Levels and gear caps are ultimately just ways to introduce time-sinks to a game. Admittedly time-sinks are necessary for mmo's because a developer can't churn out content at the same speed players can play it.

    We just need a developer to find a way to add time-sinks to a game that are still as engaging as the intermittent reward cycle of vertical progression.

    Clearly a game with no vertical progression wouldn't be for everyone. As shown in some of the responses here some personality types respond best to that type of system. I think people who would find it most engaging would have shifted their expectations or be willing to. I think a desire to explore systems and the game world would probably be the main motivation for playing.
    I disagree. All that level content never gets touched again once your majorly player population hits endgame. Look at WoW for example and Rift. Most people played in the max level zones and moved away from leveling zones. That's 90% of the actual ingame content useless and a waste of resources since most will never touch it again. In a levelless system that content would all be endgame. Look at GW2. A max level in GW2 is playing in a low level area because the whole game scales.  It's a useless grandfathered mechanic. It's there because older mmos did it. That's all
    Aren't we agreeing though? O_o  We both think a mmo without levels is viable. I said time-sinks are necessary but I meant they don't need to be in the form of leveling and item levels.

    Time-sinks I can see still working are fights that last a little longer, less fast travel, relatively fast re-spawn on mobs combined with map design so that you have to fight your way into areas of interest and then out of them too. Basically things that slow down game play without adding repetition and tedium just for the sake of it.

    I agree leveling most often just leaves behind dead content in its path. GW2 does a reasonably good job but then the leveling maps have fairly predictable similar rhythms to them, each has a spread of the same content just arranged a little differently with a different skin.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:
    I played GW2 for a solid chunk.  I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic.  When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting.  But even then people claimed there wasn't.  Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.  
    Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression.  It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs. 
    In WoW and ESO most people play at max level.  Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level.  I know ESO scales the world.  I think WoW does too now.

    How is the progression mechanics different?  You get better items and equip them, right?

    I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.  

    What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales?  How did this change mechanics?  Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?  

    I did play DCUO at end game for a while.  I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points.  I know I'm not a fan of that.  

    GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level.  That is a 100% fact.  If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay.  I can see that.  

    So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then?  What's the difference?  
    The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.

    Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.

    Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.

    I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.

    In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels.  You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons,  Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame. 

    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    Scaling, has allowed Leveling to still provide its intended use, which is to teach the game mechanics to starting players while keeping all content viable for all players.

    In short, Scaling, has removed the argument for removing levels, as provided in games like GW2, Scaling resolves all the downsides that anyone can present against leveling, while still making it the viable introductory and learning mechanic that has stood the test of time.

    The Process of Leveling allows new players to learn about the games gear set ups, how stats work, what abilities do, different kinds of mobs, and a overall learning process of the mechanics of the game. Leveling also gives players a direction, something simple and easy that they understand, to do when they start, that is not deplorably stuck on rails.

    In this case, again, GW2, had a great system for leveling. You could level in a manner that made you happy, you could do DE, hearts, Story, Exploration, crafting, all of this allowed a new player to explore the game world at a pace and in a way they would enjoy, and almost anything and everything you did, gave you EXP, to move you along to the end goal of "max level"

    Then, once a player was at max level, GW2 provided a lot of Tomes, so that now more veteran players that learned the game, if they wanted to make an alt, try a different class or race, or whatever, they were free to either level that as a learning experience, (learn the new class and how it works) or they could just instantly level them up with a few clicks and play at max level.

    By far one of the best systems I have seen. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
    Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball.  Next quest you learn how to use firestorm.  Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.  
    This sounds like far, far, more tedious and aggravating than simply saying "At level 2 you can learn an additional spell, you can pick between Fire Ball and Ice Blast, at level 6 you can learn Fire Storm or Ice Storm" 

    I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.

    This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.
    Or more than likely once you have done intro quest you can skip them once done before.  

     

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
    Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball.  Next quest you learn how to use firestorm.  Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.  
    This sounds like far, far, more tedious and aggravating than simply saying "At level 2 you can learn an additional spell, you can pick between Fire Ball and Ice Blast, at level 6 you can learn Fire Storm or Ice Storm" 

    I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.

    This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.
    Or more than likely once you have done intro quest you can skip them once done before.  

     

    So.. all that content for a one time use.. weren't you the one crying about how leveling makes for invalid content.. and now that is what you want to do.. make a huge amount of content that has no replayability.

    Again.. your better off with levels to break the game up, and function as a learning mechanic.
    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.

    The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.

    To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc,  and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.

    That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.

    This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.

    Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.

    In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.

    So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
    Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.  
    What the hell are you talking about? Class quests? 

    Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on. 
    Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball.  Next quest you learn how to use firestorm.  Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.  
    This sounds like far, far, more tedious and aggravating than simply saying "At level 2 you can learn an additional spell, you can pick between Fire Ball and Ice Blast, at level 6 you can learn Fire Storm or Ice Storm" 

    I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.

    This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.
    Or more than likely once you have done intro quest you can skip them once done before.  

     

    So.. all that content for a one time use.. weren't you the one crying about how leveling makes for invalid content.. and now that is what you want to do.. make a huge amount of content that has no replayability.

    Again.. your better off with levels to break the game up, and function as a learning mechanic.
    You are really comparing skipping an intro to having 95% of your gaming world empty?  Totally the same.  
    MMOExposed
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.

    Steelhelm
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?

    Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively :)
    Right they are not for everyone. I largely don't play MMORPG.  But a lot of people on this forum are not happy with the state of genre.  Yet as has been the case since I have been on these forums those with alternate ideas get told to play other games. 

    Used to be told to go play quake and it changes as thenext hot online game type comes around.  It is basically an insult that your ideas don't belong and neither do you.  It is an asshole move because largely the people who say don't even understand the discussion.  Just different is bad.

    Sorry to tell you this but you can play a role in MMORPG without vertical progression because you have other players to play roles with. 90% of content played in the genre is levelless or level scaled.  MMORPG are not directly RPG.  

    You are going to tell me WoW would not be a MMORPG if everyone started at end game?  It would be the same game basically.


    It really depends on what the poster is asking for, doesn't it? I've seen my share of "play THIS game, instead!" posts and sometimes, they are warranted. Other times, I agree with you that they're 100% being a dick.

    An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.

    The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.

    The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."
    So you are basically saying RPG = numbers and gear score?

    Your saying if in WoW you took away levels and gear then made everything cosmetic drop it would stop being WoW?  Stops being an RPG with all the content and quest? It just becomes a BR? 

    I don't see it that way.  I guess you could say it still would have story progression. 

    It is interesting that as much as people talk about story and the like defining RPG.  It seems like people believe more in numbers and gear score.
    Not really that simplified, but if "progression" to you means ONLY numbers and gear score, then yes?

    WoW would NOT be WoW taking those features away, would it. An RPG? Not to me. You seem to see it that way, so that's just a difference of what we seek in an RPG. You want to start at the top, I want the journey of progress.

    Notice, nothing was mentioned about character levels. I'm not a fan of those, but SKILL levels are my bread and butter :)

    Cosmetic doesn't mean shit to me, as it does for others. I have yet to play a game with "awesome" gear that I just had to have. So cosmetic progression is no progression to me. If there is no difference between wearing a cloth robe and steel plate amour, what's the point? If there IS a difference, you now have progression.

    I've never been a player to utter, "The game begins at end game."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    Ungood said:
    Scaling, has allowed Leveling to still provide its intended use, which is to teach the game mechanics to starting players while keeping all content viable for all players.

    In short, Scaling, has removed the argument for removing levels, as provided in games like GW2, Scaling resolves all the downsides that anyone can present against leveling, while still making it the viable introductory and learning mechanic that has stood the test of time.
    I had a question on this, for GW2 specifically. I seem to recall that UNDER leveled characters could not go anywhere, that the scaling only adjusted for higher leveled characters, not lower level characters. Is this not how it works, or has it changed?

    For instance, I recall my rogue character not being able to go into a level 15 zone for a couple of quests she got early at level 12. I could very well be misremembering and it was YEARS go :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,904
    Gdemami said:
    So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand. 
    It is not flawed, you are just so damn awful at reasoning and ability to articulate your thoughts.

    You remove levels, there will still be gear, resources or w/e power gaps that will gate the content.

    It has nothing to do with levels, what you are advocating for is world scaling.
    No I dont want levels period.  I want a world that I can go anywhere day one. Like a max level in GW2. I keep bringing it back to GW2 as an example. A max level player can be in exotic, where as another max level player is in legendary. Yet both players can go anywhere and do anything. Progression is still there and dungeons and raids are still there. I dont want level grind.
    GdemamiSteelhelm

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,904
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Scaling, has allowed Leveling to still provide its intended use, which is to teach the game mechanics to starting players while keeping all content viable for all players.

    In short, Scaling, has removed the argument for removing levels, as provided in games like GW2, Scaling resolves all the downsides that anyone can present against leveling, while still making it the viable introductory and learning mechanic that has stood the test of time.
    I had a question on this, for GW2 specifically. I seem to recall that UNDER leveled characters could not go anywhere, that the scaling only adjusted for higher leveled characters, not lower level characters. Is this not how it works, or has it changed?

    For instance, I recall my rogue character not being able to go into a level 15 zone for a couple of quests she got early at level 12. I could very well be misremembering and it was YEARS go :)
    Yeas that how it worked. But I want the leveling period to be removed. It's useless and doesnt teach players how to play any better than being max level. In fact, since day one you could jump into SPvP and be a instant level 80 there. No point having a SPvP for each level range to teach people how to play when gameplay is so radically different as a low level compared to a max level. 

    I learned this in Rift. I leveled up my characters in Warfront PvP and was very good at it until I reached max level where gameplay was totally different beast.

    Many players in level grind games make it to max level and still dont understand their class. I leveled all my characters except my Revenant in GW2, and i still dont know how to Thief/Mesmer/Engineer/Ele. So I dont play them. Levels dont teach anything that you cant learn as a max level actually doing stuff.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,904
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.

    Again in GW2 levels dont teach anything you cant learn as a max level. Which is how they allow Level skips in the first place. I main revenant and I didnt level him. I maxed his day one of HoT. Learned from playing. Also since day one of Vanilla GW2 you could instantaneously become a max level character in SPvP and play and become skilled by actually playing the class. Killing mindless NPC dont teach you anything.  I level grinded all the vanilla classes and still dont know how to play many of them because I dont really feel motivated to play those classes as they dont interest me. But players learn their class by playing content, not level grinding. 

    Vanilla WoW had major level grind and back then you have level 50s and 60 that still didnt know how to play their class. Killing NPCs and running mass collection quest dont teach squat.
    Gdemami

    image

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Scaling, has allowed Leveling to still provide its intended use, which is to teach the game mechanics to starting players while keeping all content viable for all players.

    In short, Scaling, has removed the argument for removing levels, as provided in games like GW2, Scaling resolves all the downsides that anyone can present against leveling, while still making it the viable introductory and learning mechanic that has stood the test of time.
    I had a question on this, for GW2 specifically. I seem to recall that UNDER leveled characters could not go anywhere, that the scaling only adjusted for higher leveled characters, not lower level characters. Is this not how it works, or has it changed?

    For instance, I recall my rogue character not being able to go into a level 15 zone for a couple of quests she got early at level 12. I could very well be misremembering and it was YEARS go :)
    It levels down, for most content (Up for Fractals, WvW, and sPvP, and a few other things) but as I explained, that is again the whole idea of leveling, that the World Grows as you Level. and GW2, did a very good job of embracing this ideal.
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,348
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.

    Again in GW2 levels dont teach anything you cant learn as a max level. Which is how they allow Level skips in the first place. I main revenant and I didnt level him. I maxed his day one of HoT. Learned from playing. Also since day one of Vanilla GW2 you could instantaneously become a max level character in SPvP and play and become skilled by actually playing the class. Killing mindless NPC dont teach you anything.  I level grinded all the vanilla classes and still dont know how to play many of them because I dont really feel motivated to play those classes as they dont interest me. But players learn their class by playing content, not level grinding. 

    Vanilla WoW had major level grind and back then you have level 50s and 60 that still didnt know how to play their class. Killing NPCs and running mass collection quest dont teach squat.
    Here's a book on Calculus. By the way, here are books on Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry, too. Have fun :)

    Some players, especially new to the genre, may find this a bit overwhelming. Not everyone is as great and grand a you are.
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,900
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.
      

    Mechanics to introduce players to game can come in story between you just get powers and figure out how to use them on your own.  It has always been that way.

    It is always funny that people equate lack of levels to lacking mechanics and systems.   Having your full moveset from the beginning or spread out over a month grind doesn't change depth.  



    MMOExposedSteelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.

    Again in GW2 levels dont teach anything you cant learn as a max level. Which is how they allow Level skips in the first place. I main revenant and I didnt level him. I maxed his day one of HoT. Learned from playing. Also since day one of Vanilla GW2 you could instantaneously become a max level character in SPvP and play and become skilled by actually playing the class. Killing mindless NPC dont teach you anything.  I level grinded all the vanilla classes and still dont know how to play many of them because I dont really feel motivated to play those classes as they dont interest me. But players learn their class by playing content, not level grinding. 

    Vanilla WoW had major level grind and back then you have level 50s and 60 that still didnt know how to play their class. Killing NPCs and running mass collection quest dont teach squat.
    Well now, here is a novel idea, maybe, if as opposed to just grinding levels, they played the content to level, that would solve the whole issue, now wouldn't it?

    The problem here is not the levels, it's the mentality of gamers that look at levels as a grind, opposed to just part of playing the game.

    Seems like the problem is on the player end with that one.
    AlBQuirky
  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 70
    Ungood said:
    When people talk to me about No Levels, they seem to miss what levels do.

    They function for the first time player, as a introductory process, this is how they learn the game, as what should be a solid pace. Sure, some games screw this up, but then than some games have managed to screw everything up.. so, no surprise that some games would mess up how to make levels work. 

    But levels allow new players to take the game in parts, as they play and progress more of the game opens up to them, the world and their character grows as they level.

    One of the things I liked about GW2, was the leveling, story, and all the little parts of the game, were designed around the player growing as they played. Hero Points, unlocking trait lines, skills, abilities, understanding gear stats, crafting, and overall, seeing the game world.

    This was a solid system, nothing too fast, and players were given time to play with each new thing they got. GW2's scaling system made it so all content remained viable, so literally the world grew as you leveled up, unlike some games were the world kinda shrinks, and people get bottle necked into a single kind of end game. (Later with HoT GW2 they went in the direction of a bottlenecked end game, but their Core game design was the Epic Shitz)

    That is the key point here, players were given time to play with each new thing they got with their new level, before having other thing thrown at them.

    On the flip side of this, I kinda hates Arche Age, how they shoved this huge ass tutorial of all the game features down my throat before I even had the chance to really play around with any of it, for any length of time. Never liked that, never will like that.

    Now, I suppose if the game stayed at a stupid simple base, that a no leveling system could done, after all, you don't really need to teach people about the various game mechanics and systems, if you don't have any.
      

    Mechanics to introduce players to game can come in story between you just get powers and figure out how to use them on your own.  It has always been that way.

    It is always funny that people equate lack of levels to lacking mechanics and systems.   Having your full moveset from the beginning or spread out over a month grind doesn't change depth.  



    Change is scary for a lot of people, I feel like that is what we are seeing a bit of in this thread.

    Optional tutorials work fine and are often already co-existing in games with leveling at the moment. GW2 seems to be something we are all familiar with, the prompt to learn to dodge roll near the start of the game is an example of an integrated tutorial that isn't dependent on level. FFXIV has Hall of the Novice, optional tutorials before the first dungeon. These aren't scary or radical, they work fine and there are lots of other creative ways to incorporate tutorials without leveling.
    GdemamiMMOExposed
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