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MMO with no leveling

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    BR is a match.  What is the connection between BR and a MMORPG? I am not sure. Because it lacks levels it would lack content, persistent world and other trappings of MMORPG?  Is it a limited understanding of the concept levelless MMORPG?  Not trying to be rude but it is a drastic left field suggestion.  Just because it lacks levels it would 
    Gdemami
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 329
    edited May 29
    MMOs need one of the two things at minimum: leveling or kingdom building
    sometimes just fine adventure might compensate for these but it's not sustainable in the long run by itself imo
    1000 vs1000 players easily becomes an mmo battleground but not an MMORPG
    AlBQuirky
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,831
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    GdemamiKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    Sounds like ever MMORPG since WoW.

    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,098
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.





  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,013
    edited May 29
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.


    Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)

    Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.

    ;)
    AmatheSovrathDrunkWolf

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,098
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.


    Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)

    Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.

    ;)
    I think it goes back to "why do we play."  B)

    I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue  :( ) and while I enjoy getting cool new things/upgrades, definitely leveling, I don't just play to level or play to get new things.

    It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.

    Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.

    I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.

    when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.

    But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!

    With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.

    So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?




    GdemamiKyleranAlBQuirky



  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Sovrath said:
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.


    Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)

    Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.

    ;)
    I think it goes back to "why do we play."  B)

    I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue  :( ) and while I enjoy getting cool new things/upgrades, definitely leveling, I don't just play to level or play to get new things.

    It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.

    Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.

    I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.

    when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.

    But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!

    With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.

    So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?




    Seems there have been two options.  Make MMORPG fun in their own right or trigger addictive psychological responses that want you to grind even if the action isn't fun + offer cash shop items to those who reject the matrix.  
    Gdemami
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,874
    Scorchien said:
    Why arent all you No Level people playing Second life ... there is your game with no levels , it also has No Fun
    Why don't you drop MMORPG for Anthem, Division and Destiny.  They are totally the same thing.
    No they are not , none of those are mmorpgs.. 
    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Why arent all you No Level people playing Second life ... there is your game with no levels , it also has No Fun
    Why don't you drop MMORPG for Anthem, Division and Destiny.  They are totally the same thing.
    No they are not , none of those are mmorpgs.. 
    It was sarcasm but they are closer to themepark MMORPG than what he is talking about is to Second Life.

    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,098
    Sovrath said:
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.


    Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)

    Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.

    ;)
    I think it goes back to "why do we play."  B)

    I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue  :( ) and while I enjoy getting cool new things/upgrades, definitely leveling, I don't just play to level or play to get new things.

    It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.

    Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.

    I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.

    when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.

    But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!

    With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.

    So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?




    Seems there have been two options.  Make MMORPG fun in their own right or trigger addictive psychological responses that want you to grind even if the action isn't fun + offer cash shop items to those who reject the matrix.  
    People say they want something fun but what exactly is that? Is it just dropping people in and having them raid? Some might find that fun and some might hate that. And for those who find it fun, how many raids are going to sustain them before they can't do it any more?

    I don't think "grind" isn't fun. To me I like combat and would rather just combat enemies than take a quest, run to some glowy place, kill/collect/whatever 4 things and run back.

    I DO enjoy, in Lord of the Rings online, riding through the countryside, seeing an orc fort or barracks or camp and staying there and fighting them. For some that's grinding but I just have my own narrative that supports it.

    mmorpg's have issues because they are multi-player games where people "could" group up but they've attracted a lot of people who want them to be single player games and have stories that work better in single player games than multiplayer games.

    You could have an mmorpg that allowed building (how many players get to build giant structures though? That could be problematic in certain games) trading, raiding, all without leveling. However, there is going to need to be built in reasons for people to do that. What can they do with their money, what do their buildings allow?

    Maybe it's just one open ffa pvp game where there is no leveling but there is trading/building/raiding to support the pvp?

    Can that work for a completely pve world for those who don't want ffa pvp? Possibly. Have npc armies attacking one's buildings, trade and raiding can support that.

    I'm just not clear that everyone is on board with what this non-leveling game will look like. Because  leveling does take time and that time does allow developers to work on other content. Is there an example of a similar game out there? 

    Even the developers for Guild Wars 2 felt they needed to change their game.
    AlBQuirkySteelhelm



  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    For myself the idea of Fun is to actually have a ROLE playing game,where we live inside the world like you would expect to live if a real world.
    There is NO such thing as raiding in the real world.
    There is no such thing as yellow markers over people's heads
    There is no such thing as levels however we can say that someone is of a certain level of experience,so i can see where that idea derived from.

    Just give me a game that feels like a world and makes sense,don't give me automated crap.lfg dungeons,automated travel,auto fishing,don't give me foolish looking combat like  in BDO or somersaults or flips in the air,don't give me nonsense.

    Vermillion_RaventhalSteelhelm

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    Give me a cross between EQ2/FFXI/Atlas and i am real happy,i would never play another game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    Dauzqul said:
    It would take a VERY immersive world to pull this off, e.g., deep player economy (hardcore crafting, social trades, player cities, player shopping malls), complex and entertaining combat, and an endless supply of aesthetics (armor, clothing, weapons, cloaks, mounts).

    Jedi Academy-style combat, Second Life-style social players, and a gigantic world.

    I'm in!
    Not really. In Most MMOs already, the majority of players are max level and play in the game world for years without leveling again until level expansion.

    Take Guild Wars 2 for example. Most of us are level 80. The whole game scales. So imagine if there was no level. The game would pretty much be the exact same, minus the original 1 to 80 grind/gated....

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    syltmacka said:
    makes no sence with no reward system. a bunch of donkeys without carrots, nope.
    Levels arent the reward. Guild Wars 2 shows how flawed and useless the old leveling system is. It's not needed. Its grandfathered mechanics. A levelless world still has objectives and goals. Yiu just have freedom to go anywhere and do anything in whatever order you want. Developers can still give you a path as well if you need guidance.  Like meta boss train in GW2 for example.
    Gdemami

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    i am not in, when play mmos i want to slay dragons, i want to go where no man has gone before, i want to be a fricken SUPERHERO....
    What that have to do with levels though? Listen to yourself.  All that right there has nothing to do with level grind. A level 60 in Vanilla WoW was killing dragons and all that. So why do that same character need to be level 95 now to kill a dragon? See what I am saying here?

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    Aparition said:
    ye, its called real life, take a walk outside for a bit
    But even RL has leveling. My wife issued a early morning EPIC QUEST Yesterday of grilling for 8 people & my cooking skill was  leveled by +2 evident by the perfectly charred outside crust of the steaks while the inside was pink and juicy... Sadly this quest didn't reward any gold or beer just cooking XP & a sweaty forehead....
    That's not leveling.
    Learning new skills and leveling are different. 
    My warrior learned 3 new skills; Stab, Leap, Stomp.

    That's different from my Warrior leveled.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    AlBQuirky said:
    I enjoy improving my character in a game, watching them grow. It's why I play games. Improving their skills and abilities as they learn is the number one activity I look for in a game. That's just me, though.

    Generally speaking, I think this idea would skyrocket because that is basically what the playerbase wants right now... "Right Now!" So many rush to endgame now, bypassing the journey, that I think this concept has a great appeal.
    Leveling is not the journey. That's why people skip it. It's a grandfathered mechanic from old sub based MMOs. Not needed at all. A journey is about explorations.  Nothing is more exploreable than a world with no level barriers.
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    Amathe said:
    I enjoy leveling my characters up. I also like building out their skills and stats, and obtaining/choosing their gear. It's a big part of why I play.

    I certainly don't just want to play Barbie and Ken dress up with cosmetic gear. 
    You just contradicted yourself 

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    Aenghas said:
    It could definitely work. Levels and gear caps are ultimately just ways to introduce time-sinks to a game. Admittedly time-sinks are necessary for mmo's because a developer can't churn out content at the same speed players can play it.

    We just need a developer to find a way to add time-sinks to a game that are still as engaging as the intermittent reward cycle of vertical progression.

    Clearly a game with no vertical progression wouldn't be for everyone. As shown in some of the responses here some personality types respond best to that type of system. I think people who would find it most engaging would have shifted their expectations or be willing to. I think a desire to explore systems and the game world would probably be the main motivation for playing.
    I disagree. All that level content never gets touched again once your majorly player population hits endgame. Look at WoW for example and Rift. Most people played in the max level zones and moved away from leveling zones. That's 90% of the actual ingame content useless and a waste of resources since most will never touch it again. In a levelless system that content would all be endgame. Look at GW2. A max level in GW2 is playing in a low level area because the whole game scales.  It's a useless grandfathered mechanic. It's there because older mmos did it. That's all

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,956
    Amathe said:
    jusomdude said:

    There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.

    Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
    So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball? 

    Pass.
    What MMO are you playing now days. How much you want to bet that game is doing something similar?

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,013
    edited May 30
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    AlBQuirkySovrath

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    You forget the second half of MMO... the RPG?

    RPG's without levels/skill levels are horrible.... character advancement is a staple of why people play RPG's. If you want a drop in explore no levels... Action/Adventure games are that way...

    You want a company to develop a MMOAAG ... sure I support you 100%, but don't change RPG's into AAG
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Kyleran said:
    jusomdude said:
    Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
    That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
    That's a ridiculous comparison.  Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
    You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.

    Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year. 

    Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.

    You are looking for what we used to call Adventure  games like Kings Quest,  Myst and the like.

    Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason.  Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away. 

    Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.  
    Gdemami
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