Grind is doing a task over and over. It doesnt have to mean a bad thing, but it can be bad based on how much grinding you have to do to get something. Vanilla WoW was very much more grindy. It's a reason they moved away from that model. The artificial grinding for sake of grinding model is very outdated. It's all we had back then. Had no options or MMOs without hardcore grind philosophy.
Most people want to play and have fun parallel to their progress. Back then the philosophy of MMOs was that the "Progression" itself was the fun, so making it take longer to progress would extend the fun. Very flawed understanding. But that's my opinion.
Grind has always been a crutch. It was there to get you to sub longer. Orginal players just accepted it as norm. There are other ways to encourage socializing and other activities besides mindless repeating the same thing over and over.
Grind is life. School, work, family, sports and play are all grinds. There is no "conspiracy theory" about grinds in games sole purpose being to extend playing time and keep those subs coming.
Now, some loot drops on timers could be construed to keep players playing and paying, but "grind", in and of itself is not.
Doom was a grind. No cash shop or subs present. Freecell is a grind without a cash shop or subscription needed. Tabletop Chess is a grind with no cash shop or subscription needed. Killing monsters or other players is a grind. Chasing carrots on a stick is a grind. Learning multiplication tables is a grind. Driving is a grind.
Grind was NOT some invention to milk players of money.
PS: Everything we do in video games is a grind, ie: repeated tasks, keystrokes, button mashes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I enjoy games where an investment of my time leads to character advancement. To me this is not a "grind."
To you. I see no reason to wait to enjoy myself. I have done the invest 50x over 15 years. I don't need to do it again. There is no accomplishment. Just time wasted.
In Everquest there was an NPC named Hadden. He spawned just shy of every six hours from the last time he was killed or from any server reset. Sometimes he dropped an item called the Fishbone Earring (worth a LOT of coin, back in the day), which allowed the wearer to breathe under water. But he didn't drop it every time.
I camped Hadden on numerous occasions. Waiting and waiting and waiting. Chasing away camp breakers. Shooting the shit for hours in guild chat. Finding ways to pass the time (riding around in Hadden's little boat).
The EXCITEMENT of seeing him spawn right in front of me after all that time!!!!!
The Ecstasy of downing him and getting the earring!
The agony of downing him and getting jack shit! ARRRRRRGUH!
The rage of someone else being quicker on the draw and getting him instead of me!
I can still feel all of those emotions when I close my eyes. Like it was yesterday.
And I pity people who haven't experienced anything like it, because you are missing out even if you don't know you are.
Today's games are like some anti-depressants. They take away the highs and the lows and leave you emotionally flat.
I more enjoy the roller coaster of human emotion. For that, you need to put something into the game to get something back, and not just have it handed to you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Grind is doing a task over and over. It doesnt have to mean a bad thing, but it can be bad based on how much grinding you have to do to get something. Vanilla WoW was very much more grindy. It's a reason they moved away from that model. The artificial grinding for sake of grinding model is very outdated. It's all we had back then. Had no options or MMOs without hardcore grind philosophy.
Most people want to play and have fun parallel to their progress. Back then the philosophy of MMOs was that the "Progression" itself was the fun, so making it take longer to progress would extend the fun. Very flawed understanding. But that's my opinion.
Grind has always been a crutch. It was there to get you to sub longer. Orginal players just accepted it as norm. There are other ways to encourage socializing and other activities besides mindless repeating the same thing over and over.
So, I can assume you are against subscriptions in MMORPGs. Let me ask you this, without subscriptions, how are companies suppose to pay the bills like payroll and server costs, maintain the current game and pay for future expansions?
I think Turbine's model of selling DLC's (like Adventure packs) was the best way to build an MMO. That way, as the game went on, the exploring expanded, the overall grind lessened, as there was more to do so less repetition of the same old stuff, and it also ensured that if players wanted the best stuff in game, while they could buy the content, they still had to earn the rewards from it.
Not only that, the cash shop helped expanded the game no substitute it, as opposed to frilly cosmetics that didn't help build up the game, selling DLC's made the game larger and more expansive to those willing to pay for more of the game they enjoyed.
Overall, an amazing plan, wonder why it didn't kick off better?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now, or you can buy it thru the internet
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now
It's only a grind if you dont enjoy it. Otherwise, your just having fun. Leveling in any game could be considered a grind, and almost every game has leveling whether it be your character level or your gear.
People building skyscapers could say its a grind in all honesty, growth is "grindy"
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now
No they don't.
Yes , some do . Wow for ex you can boost to 110 , my friend did last weekend(boosted to 110 fri nite) was 120 on monday .. FF14 offers a high boost as does Rift and EQ2 , you can also get to lvelv 50 in ESO in under 10 hours if you choose... etc..
And ALL games max character can be bought..if you want it
And honestly all these games take very little effort to to max level anyhow if thats what you want ... so just do it ..
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now
No they don't.
Yes , some do . Wow for ex you can boost to 110 , my friend did last weekend(boosted to 110 fri nite) was 120 on monday .. FF14 offers a high boost as does Rift and EQ2 , you can also get to lvelv 50 in ESO in under 10 hours if you choose... etc..
And ALL games max character can be bought..if you want it
And honestly all these games take very little effort to to max level anyhow if thats what you want ... so just do it ..
That's because the grinds spread to gear. Not what the OP is talking about.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now
No they don't.
Yes , some do . Wow for ex you can boost to 110 , my friend did last weekend(boosted to 110 fri nite) was 120 on monday .. FF14 offers a high boost as does Rift and EQ2 , you can also get to lvelv 50 in ESO in under 10 hours if you choose... etc..
And ALL games max character can be bought..if you want it
And honestly all these games take very little effort to to max level anyhow if thats what you want ... so just do it ..
That's because the grinds spread to gear. Not what the OP is talking about.
my response was to this comment you made ..not to the OP
"I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick
my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows
me. "
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
so , do it , you can basically do that in many of these games , or dam near just buy your lvl boost to cap and go to do that.. Many of the Theme parks provide that service now
No they don't.
Yes , some do . Wow for ex you can boost to 110 , my friend did last weekend(boosted to 110 fri nite) was 120 on monday .. FF14 offers a high boost as does Rift and EQ2 , you can also get to lvelv 50 in ESO in under 10 hours if you choose... etc..
And ALL games max character can be bought..if you want it
And honestly all these games take very little effort to to max level anyhow if thats what you want ... so just do it ..
That's because the grinds spread to gear. Not what the OP is talking about.
my response was to this comment you made ..not to the OP
"I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick
my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows
me. "
And what i said is true ..
It is not true. As I said I have played MMORPG since 1996 and yet to see a truly non level or gear based grind. While it may be faster it still is there and many have been replaced by end game gear score grinds. My level 110 in WoW for example had a low gear score. My ability to do certain things made my gear score matter as well as leveling up legendary weapon.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
No more single player than an RPG.
Oh stop with the trying to obscure.. are you trying to draw some analogy to a Single Player game like Tomb Raider, to a MMO like WoW?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
No more single player than an RPG.
Oh stop with the trying to obscure.. are you trying to draw some analogy to a Single Player game like Tomb Raider, to a MMO like WoW?
Not being obscure. I was simply explaining the type of gameplay. Thought it would be obvious that it was MMO style since that is what exactly I said. MMO action adventure, FPS or any MMOX are still valid MMO.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
No more single player than an RPG.
Oh stop with the trying to obscure.. are you trying to draw some analogy to a Single Player game like Tomb Raider, to a MMO like WoW?
Not being obscure. I was simply explaining the type of gameplay. Thought it would be obvious that it was MMO style since that is what exactly I said. MMO action adventure, FPS or any MMOX are still valid MMO.
By your logic.. go play Fortnight.. it seems to be what you want.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No.. I take it back.. Again.. Second Life seems to be what you are looking for, a game with no progression systems in it at all, no grind, just, go and make your own fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dogmatic belief in grind will keep this genre on the dying end of things. It is not a fun right of passage. Some folks like this but most players do not want to waste time in what amounts to a job.
Socializing, building, roleplaying, exploring, engaging combat from the start are things MMORPG can do without grind.
I'll give you a few of your points, You are correct that you do not need "Grind" for Socializing, or Exploring, Role Playing, or even to make Engaging combat.
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Goal based things are different then repeat mode for the sake of repeat mode. Even building is based on the goals of the designer.
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
Need?
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
It is not the perfect MMO or what we are talking about.
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
"Action Adventure".. are talking about single player games like Tomb Raider?
No more single player than an RPG.
Oh stop with the trying to obscure.. are you trying to draw some analogy to a Single Player game like Tomb Raider, to a MMO like WoW?
Not being obscure. I was simply explaining the type of gameplay. Thought it would be obvious that it was MMO style since that is what exactly I said. MMO action adventure, FPS or any MMOX are still valid MMO.
By your logic.. go play Fortnight.. it seems to be what you want.
By your logic... go play Anthem... it seems to be what you want.
No.. I take it back.. Again.. Second Life seems to be what you are looking for, a game with no progression systems in it at all, no grind, just, go and make your own fun.
No.. I take it back.. Again.. Cell Phone games seems to be what you are looking for, a gamd with no point, all grind, just, go and make your own fun.
No.. I take it back.. Again.. Second Life seems to be what you are looking for, a game with no progression systems in it at all, no grind, just, go and make your own fun.
No.. I take it back.. Again.. Cell Phone games seems to be what you are looking for, a gamd with no point, all grind, just, go and make your own fun.
No, see you are the one looking for zero grind, zero effort, zero rewards to receive, and just be given everything with no work on your part.
For me, I enjoy MMO's as they are, where the grind makes sense to the game world. I've also played some phone games, loved me some Simons Cat for passing the time as I am passing a load.
But, I am not the one crying we need to change things, I've already got some games I am having fun, I don't need nor do I want your suggestions.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Now, some loot drops on timers could be construed to keep players playing and paying, but "grind", in and of itself is not.
Doom was a grind. No cash shop or subs present. Freecell is a grind without a cash shop or subscription needed. Tabletop Chess is a grind with no cash shop or subscription needed. Killing monsters or other players is a grind. Chasing carrots on a stick is a grind. Learning multiplication tables is a grind. Driving is a grind.
Grind was NOT some invention to milk players of money.
PS: Everything we do in video games is a grind, ie: repeated tasks, keystrokes, button mashes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
In Everquest there was an NPC named Hadden. He spawned just shy of every six hours from the last time he was killed or from any server reset. Sometimes he dropped an item called the Fishbone Earring (worth a LOT of coin, back in the day), which allowed the wearer to breathe under water. But he didn't drop it every time.
I camped Hadden on numerous occasions. Waiting and waiting and waiting. Chasing away camp breakers. Shooting the shit for hours in guild chat. Finding ways to pass the time (riding around in Hadden's little boat).
The EXCITEMENT of seeing him spawn right in front of me after all that time!!!!!
The Ecstasy of downing him and getting the earring!
The agony of downing him and getting jack shit! ARRRRRRGUH!
The rage of someone else being quicker on the draw and getting him instead of me!
I can still feel all of those emotions when I close my eyes. Like it was yesterday.
And I pity people who haven't experienced anything like it, because you are missing out even if you don't know you are.
Today's games are like some anti-depressants. They take away the highs and the lows and leave you emotionally flat.
I more enjoy the roller coaster of human emotion. For that, you need to put something into the game to get something back, and not just have it handed to you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
But.. Building. Ah, that's a different monster, see All building, be it real life or in game, or pretty much anywhere, is overall a part of a grind. Building Things, is the "work" of the game. In that venture, yes, it takes a grind of some form.
Even in fast paced shooters, like Fortnight, where everything it pretty much super quick, building requires you collect the materials to build with, which is the only grind in that game, but... building is still the only grind in the game.
Not only that, the cash shop helped expanded the game no substitute it, as opposed to frilly cosmetics that didn't help build up the game, selling DLC's made the game larger and more expansive to those willing to pay for more of the game they enjoyed.
Overall, an amazing plan, wonder why it didn't kick off better?
Going to a dungeon and killing the same boss 20 times to get your loot is not needed. I don't think there is a need to manually craft 80 billion items either.
I'll concreed that there is no need to give players anything to do in an MMO, as I believe Second Life proved this. Just one huge social landscape, where players basically just mess around and pass the time doing nothing really important. They can explore, chat, role play, build, all the things you talked about. They don't have combat, but combat has no need in that world, as since there are no grind, no leveling, no need to farm the same boss mob for loot, there is no need to kill anything or anyone.
Want a pretty sword.. make it, or ask someone else to make it for you, same with anything and everything else you could want, all right there, with only the effort you put in to design and form it. No farming, no grind, no tedium..
By your metric, the perfect MMO.
Have you played it?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You have never played action adventure games before? These games have light or no character advancement. The idea is that I can jump in and my skill determines my battle prowess. That is an easier way to describe it. Players want the trappings of MMORPG without the fluff and grind.
I could certainly play a themepark MMO like that where I equip or pick my weapon type/class and quest, raid, dungeons any where my skill allows me.
People building skyscapers could say its a grind in all honesty, growth is "grindy"
For me, I enjoy MMO's as they are, where the grind makes sense to the game world. I've also played some phone games, loved me some Simons Cat for passing the time as I am passing a load.
But, I am not the one crying we need to change things, I've already got some games I am having fun, I don't need nor do I want your suggestions.