A look at maps...

AnOldFart

OK so we have had a lot of discussion on the maps in other threads so I thought I would start one where the info could be collated.

The reason, there maps seem exceptionally complex, they include resources in individual parcels of land, water running uphill (I think this was either a joke or maybe a bug). It also has algorithms for creating caves and a dynamic population that shrinks/grows depending on differing factors. 

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31425/Shiny-Day-Elyria-is-Big-Part-2

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31535/Shiny-Time-Making-the-Maps-Part-3

This seems exceptionally good, but doesn't explain why its taken them sooooooo long to get to this place. 

It also brings to the fore, is this overly complex or exactly what the genre needs? 

Nilden

This is from August 16, 2016

https://www.mmorpg.com/chronicles-of-elyria/news/building-the-world-from-a-development-standpoint-1000040981

Does it seem like they have come a long way since then?

Nilden

https://ibb.co/f0mbQkV

https://ibb.co/mcJqsLV

https://ibb.co/fFYnxqR

https://ibb.co/37qpk9J

https://ibb.co/d7cYMTC

https://ibb.co/q1rCGCN

All just from https://azgaar.github.io/Fantasy-Map-Generator/ the first random map generator on google.

Edit*

Or maybe they should get this https://www.world-machine.com/ since they are doing 3d world generation.

Kyleran

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

AnOldFart

Kyleran said:

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

Exactly what I was getting at just not so direct. 

Do you think if the game is made this sort of in depth world generation is what we need or is it too complex?


Personally I would have loved an empty world with one region populated and players spread across the map exploring and colonising. Tbh that's what (in my opinion) was what was explained it being pre kickstarter 

Mendel

AnOldFart said:

Kyleran said:

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

Exactly what I was getting at just not so direct. 

Do you think if the game is made this sort of in depth world generation is what we need or is it too complex?


Personally I would have loved an empty world with one region populated and players spread across the map exploring and colonising. Tbh that's what (in my opinion) was what was explained it being pre kickstarter 

How does the overly complex world map (in my opinion) impact the player's decisions in-game and how frequently -- that's what matters.  I don't see any need for a water table map; I doubt many players will dig more than 1 well in their time with COE.  To me, developing this kind of detail is wasted effort on SBS's part.  Is this going to extend to plate tectonics and high altitude wind patterns?  They can make as much work for themselves as they can imagine, but it won't impact the average player's in-game decisions at all.  The detail seems more like a mechanism to delay work on other, more important systems.  I.e., procrastinating.

AnOldFart

But if they are to have a truely living world all the detail might be needed to make it realistic.

I'm not disagreeing with you here just trying to see both sides. 

Also since there should be tunneling and underground towns knowing where underground water is will be essential. I would think anyway

Kyleran

They risk being too focused on creating a very detailed world and not developing fun and entertaining game play.

AnOldFart

Kyleran said:

They risk being too focused on creating a very detailed world and not developing fun and entertaining game play.

Made me think about the last update on maps. 
When you read it, it sounds like a world simulator where people adjust world variables and watch what thr sentient life does

Ungood

To answer your question.

While Trove pulled this off, in a way that makes it look stupid easy to make this happen, they also built it on a Voxel platform, so the whole thing was just cubes.

I have no idea if their team can really build what they are trying to pull off, the way they are trying to pull it off.

Nilden

Literally any procedural world generation tool kit puts what they are showing to shame.

https://www.world-creator.com/

https://www.world-machine.com/

No seriously just browse either of those sites for those world generation tools.

Now look at what COE has shown in 3 years.

P.S. Farmin my LOLs LOLBOT don't disappoint.

Slapshot1188

AnOldFart said:

Kyleran said:

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

Exactly what I was getting at just not so direct. 

Do you think if the game is made this sort of in depth world generation is what we need or is it too complex?


Personally I would have loved an empty world with one region populated and players spread across the map exploring and colonising. Tbh that's what (in my opinion) was what was explained it being pre kickstarter 

My honest opinion is that they are relying on procedurally generated worlds which are very large and my suspicion, given their track record, is that these will be a disaster in reality.  Procedurally generated content can be great, but having it design 4 unique worlds seems like a lot to ask.  

I think this concept works at a really high level when you want to make a “world simulator “ and look at data.  I think creating living, breathing worlds to actually live in will take a lot of hand crafting.

I think these maps should have been generated a very long time ago and they should have been spending the last several months or even year fleshing it out.  Every time this guy uses a “short cut” it ends up running into “unforeseen” problems and eating up time and resources.  Just think about ElyriaMud,  Vox Elyria, making a paper based game to test combat...

Remember when Caspien said this about the original D&SS delay? “This gives all paid backers an opportunity to jump into ElyriaMUD at some point before selection and test out the game mechanics, and experience the different tribes and biomes first-hand before having to make a decision about which biome they ultimately want to play in.”

What happened to that?  

At at a minimum they should let people into these maps for a bit to run around before having to lock in their selections right?  At least if you go by what he said before...

My fear is that just using this procedural program to make the maps and settlements will create many issues for them once people get in game.   Maybe they should do what Caspien said they would do and allow people to walk around them prior to locking in.

Nilden

That's from Oct 2017. They stated they were a year into development back then. Since then we know the voxel thing was just bullshit and got cancelled, The MUD was a retarded idea and got cancelled. No release date in sight. Hell no alpha in sight.

In October it will be 4 years into this.

Where is that game in the trailer?

Don't worry they were getting ready for pre-alpha back in May, 2018...

https://massivelyop.com/2018/05/07/soulbound-readies-chronicles-of-elyria-for-pre-alpha/

Or hey maybe these are the release dates, ops nope...

https://mmopulse.com/mmorpg-mmo-release-dates/chronicles-of-elyria-unchained-release-dates-pre-alpha-alpha-beta-live-game-launch-schedules

This one? The wiki? Nope.

https://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Development_Timeline

I mean hell the latest Q&A speaks for itself...

Compare that to the original trailer.

 Edit: The map at 16:30 does look pretty sweet tho.

AnOldFart

Nilden said:

That's from Oct 2017. They stated they were a year into development back then. Since then we know the voxel thing was just bullshit and got cancelled, The MUD was a retarded idea and got cancelled. No release date in sight. Hell no alpha in sight.

In October it will be 4 years into this.

Where is that game in the trailer?

Don't worry they were getting ready for pre-alpha back in May, 2018...

https://massivelyop.com/2018/05/07/soulbound-readies-chronicles-of-elyria-for-pre-alpha/

Or hey maybe these are the release dates, ops nope...

https://mmopulse.com/mmorpg-mmo-release-dates/chronicles-of-elyria-unchained-release-dates-pre-alpha-alpha-beta-live-game-launch-schedules

This one? The wiki? Nope.

https://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Development_Timeline

I mean hell the latest Q&A speaks for itself...

Compare that to the original trailer.

 Edit: The map at 16:30 does look pretty sweet tho.

While all you have said has merit it doesn't really approach the topic of whether having such high detailed procedurally generated maps is needed in an mmorpg. 

AnOldFart

Nilden said:

Literally any procedural world generation tool kit puts what they are showing to shame.

https://www.world-creator.com/

https://www.world-machine.com/

No seriously just browse either of those sites for those world generation tools.

Now look at what COE has shown in 3 years.

P.S. Farmin my LOLs LOLBOT don't disappoint.

Both of these are excellent tools, but I'm assuming you didn't read any of the links that I posted, understandable because they are wordy. 

They are not just creating a world through simulating the erosion, sediments etc. They are trying to create a world which is living and breathing, that has finite mineral deposits, water tables, realistic weather conditions and a population that moves from point a to point b depending on a set of factors. 

The tools you posted won't do half of that, I'm not saying they will be successful but it's something to think about. 

The real question is... 
Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds? 

AnOldFart

Slapshot1188 said:

AnOldFart said:

Kyleran said:

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

Exactly what I was getting at just not so direct. 

Do you think if the game is made this sort of in depth world generation is what we need or is it too complex?


Personally I would have loved an empty world with one region populated and players spread across the map exploring and colonising. Tbh that's what (in my opinion) was what was explained it being pre kickstarter 

My honest opinion is that they are relying on procedurally generated worlds which are very large and my suspicion, given their track record, is that these will be a disaster in reality.  Procedurally generated content can be great, but having it design 4 unique worlds seems like a lot to ask.  

I think this concept works at a really high level when you want to make a “world simulator “ and look at data.  I think creating living, breathing worlds to actually live in will take a lot of hand crafting.

I think these maps should have been generated a very long time ago and they should have been spending the last several months or even year fleshing it out.  Every time this guy uses a “short cut” it ends up running into “unforeseen” problems and eating up time and resources.  Just think about ElyriaMud,  Vox Elyria, making a paper based game to test combat...

Remember when Caspien said this about the original D&SS delay? “This gives all paid backers an opportunity to jump into ElyriaMUD at some point before selection and test out the game mechanics, and experience the different tribes and biomes first-hand before having to make a decision about which biome they ultimately want to play in.”

What happened to that?  

At at a minimum they should let people into these maps for a bit to run around before having to lock in their selections right?  At least if you go by what he said before...

My fear is that just using this procedural program to make the maps and settlements will create many issues for them once people get in game.   Maybe they should do what Caspien said they would do and allow people to walk around them prior to locking in.

If they successfully create these worlds and they do end up living and breathing worlds that could offer a good gaming experience (depending in the client) will we give them the credit they deserve?

Personally I believe if they can create a way living breathing world it could revolutionise the genre. 

DerryFH

Damn almost forgot what I signed for and paid for years ago. thanks for this collection of vids/ articles. This makes me sad how once a great concept went down the drain.

Gdemami

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Nilden

Gdemami said:

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Yeah and SpatialOS is the fabric the game is built on.

https://mmos.com/news/big-set-back-chronicles-elyria-drops-spatialos

Vrika

AnOldFart said:

Both of these are excellent tools, but I'm assuming you didn't read any of the links that I posted, understandable because they are wordy. 

They are not just creating a world through simulating the erosion, sediments etc. They are trying to create a world which is living and breathing, that has finite mineral deposits, water tables, realistic weather conditions and a population that moves from point a to point b depending on a set of factors. 

The tools you posted won't do half of that, I'm not saying they will be successful but it's something to think about. 

The real question is... 
Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds? 

That's not something that the map generator does. The procedural map generator generates map once, and that's it.

If the question is whether MMORPG genre needs as horribly detailed map as CoE is trying to do, then the answer is no. All it does it detracts them from making the actual mechanisms that are needed to make the world a living dynamic place.

AnOldFart

Vrika said:

AnOldFart said:

Both of these are excellent tools, but I'm assuming you didn't read any of the links that I posted, understandable because they are wordy. 

They are not just creating a world through simulating the erosion, sediments etc. They are trying to create a world which is living and breathing, that has finite mineral deposits, water tables, realistic weather conditions and a population that moves from point a to point b depending on a set of factors. 

The tools you posted won't do half of that, I'm not saying they will be successful but it's something to think about. 

The real question is... 
Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds? 

That's not something that the map generator does. The procedural map generator generates map once, and that's it.

If the question is whether MMORPG genre needs as horribly detailed map as CoE is trying to do, then the answer is no. All it does it detracts them from making the actual mechanisms that are needed to make the world a living dynamic place.

I didn't say their map generator was doing all of that I said they were, if they used an out of the box one like you said then they would then have to dive into the code to adjust the details to match their specifics so that when they then generate their resources, water tables etc etc etc it all works together.

From that part I understand why the didn't use out of the box technology. 

Again I'm not saying they will succeed but to comment on how badly they are doing without knowing the facts is just plain silly. 

Gdemami said:

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Might want to read the question again and realise the context in what it's being asked. 

My question was:

Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds?

Kyleran

AnOldFart said:

Vrika said:

AnOldFart said:

Both of these are excellent tools, but I'm assuming you didn't read any of the links that I posted, understandable because they are wordy. 

They are not just creating a world through simulating the erosion, sediments etc. They are trying to create a world which is living and breathing, that has finite mineral deposits, water tables, realistic weather conditions and a population that moves from point a to point b depending on a set of factors. 

The tools you posted won't do half of that, I'm not saying they will be successful but it's something to think about. 

The real question is... 
Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds? 

That's not something that the map generator does. The procedural map generator generates map once, and that's it.

If the question is whether MMORPG genre needs as horribly detailed map as CoE is trying to do, then the answer is no. All it does it detracts them from making the actual mechanisms that are needed to make the world a living dynamic place.

I didn't say their map generator was doing all of that I said they were, if they used an out of the box one like you said then they would then have to dive into the code to adjust the details to match their specifics so that when they then generate their resources, water tables etc etc etc it all works together.

From that part I understand why the didn't use out of the box technology. 

Again I'm not saying they will succeed but to comment on how badly they are doing without knowing the facts is just plain silly. 

Gdemami said:

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Might want to read the question again and realise the context in what it's being asked. 

My question was:

Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds?

The challenge is determining just how realistic does the game world need to be in order to support a fun game playing experience?

I've posted below an excerpt from their Map#3 forum blog, all facinating stuff but how does any of this lead to a gamer finding the fun?

All of this is in support of determining how well a piece of land will support player populations, but is it better or even necessary to manage this at all in a video game?

I personally dislike survival mechanics in a game, I loath being forced to eat, drink, forage, craft constantly just to survive, none of this is fun unless its kept very high level.

I recall being very annoyed in Ultima 6 or 7 as my party of characters were always whining (especially Iolo) about being hungry or thirsty, and struggling with carrying enough supplies in a limited inventory to satisfy them, but hey, at least I didn't have to grow or bake it.




"Which means the next logical step, if you’re doing this accurately, is to gather information about the biome, including the types of soil you can find there, the weather conditions there, and the types of resources (Mineral, Flora, and Fauna) there and, with that information, run a series of algorithms that simulate the natural processes that would place those resources into the world. When you do, what you get back is a “parcel set” – a set of parcels (64m cubed plots of land that make up the surface of the continent) full of data about what resources and soil types can be found there, how much water the parcel can retain after a rain, etc."

AnOldFart

Kyleran said:

AnOldFart said:

Vrika said:

AnOldFart said:

Both of these are excellent tools, but I'm assuming you didn't read any of the links that I posted, understandable because they are wordy. 

They are not just creating a world through simulating the erosion, sediments etc. They are trying to create a world which is living and breathing, that has finite mineral deposits, water tables, realistic weather conditions and a population that moves from point a to point b depending on a set of factors. 

The tools you posted won't do half of that, I'm not saying they will be successful but it's something to think about. 

The real question is... 
Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds? 

That's not something that the map generator does. The procedural map generator generates map once, and that's it.

If the question is whether MMORPG genre needs as horribly detailed map as CoE is trying to do, then the answer is no. All it does it detracts them from making the actual mechanisms that are needed to make the world a living dynamic place.

I didn't say their map generator was doing all of that I said they were, if they used an out of the box one like you said then they would then have to dive into the code to adjust the details to match their specifics so that when they then generate their resources, water tables etc etc etc it all works together.

From that part I understand why the didn't use out of the box technology. 

Again I'm not saying they will succeed but to comment on how badly they are doing without knowing the facts is just plain silly. 

Gdemami said:

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Might want to read the question again and realise the context in what it's being asked. 

My question was:

Does the mmorpg genre need this sort of living breathing world or are we good with theme park crafted static worlds?

The challenge is determining just how realistic does the game world need to be in order to support a fun game playing experience?

I've posted below an excerpt from their Map#3 forum blog, all facinating stuff but how does any of this lead to a gamer finding the fun?

All of this is in support of determining how well a piece of land will support player populations, but is it better or even necessary to manage this at all in a video game?

I personally dislike survival mechanics in a game, I loath being forced to eat, drink, forage, craft constantly just to survive, none of this is fun unless its kept very high level.

I recall being very annoyed in Ultima 6 or 7 as my party of characters were always whining (especially Iolo) about being hungry or thirsty, and struggling with carrying enough supplies in a limited inventory to satisfy them, but hey, at least I didn't have to grow or bake it.




"Which means the next logical step, if you’re doing this accurately, is to gather information about the biome, including the types of soil you can find there, the weather conditions there, and the types of resources (Mineral, Flora, and Fauna) there and, with that information, run a series of algorithms that simulate the natural processes that would place those resources into the world. When you do, what you get back is a “parcel set” – a set of parcels (64m cubed plots of land that make up the surface of the continent) full of data about what resources and soil types can be found there, how much water the parcel can retain after a rain, etc."

Excellent contribution, thank you

And my concerns are very similar to this 

Slapshot1188

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

AnOldFart said:

Kyleran said:

It doesn't seem as if they are generating just static maps, it appears they are creating the actual game worlds with all relevant characteristics which players will actually play in.

Won't know until we see the final product, but it appears to be much more than simple flat maps.

Exactly what I was getting at just not so direct. 

Do you think if the game is made this sort of in depth world generation is what we need or is it too complex?


Personally I would have loved an empty world with one region populated and players spread across the map exploring and colonising. Tbh that's what (in my opinion) was what was explained it being pre kickstarter 

My honest opinion is that they are relying on procedurally generated worlds which are very large and my suspicion, given their track record, is that these will be a disaster in reality.  Procedurally generated content can be great, but having it design 4 unique worlds seems like a lot to ask.  

I think this concept works at a really high level when you want to make a “world simulator “ and look at data.  I think creating living, breathing worlds to actually live in will take a lot of hand crafting.

I think these maps should have been generated a very long time ago and they should have been spending the last several months or even year fleshing it out.  Every time this guy uses a “short cut” it ends up running into “unforeseen” problems and eating up time and resources.  Just think about ElyriaMud,  Vox Elyria, making a paper based game to test combat...

Remember when Caspien said this about the original D&SS delay? “This gives all paid backers an opportunity to jump into ElyriaMUD at some point before selection and test out the game mechanics, and experience the different tribes and biomes first-hand before having to make a decision about which biome they ultimately want to play in.”

What happened to that?  

At at a minimum they should let people into these maps for a bit to run around before having to lock in their selections right?  At least if you go by what he said before...

My fear is that just using this procedural program to make the maps and settlements will create many issues for them once people get in game.   Maybe they should do what Caspien said they would do and allow people to walk around them prior to locking in.

If they successfully create these worlds and they do end up living and breathing worlds that could offer a good gaming experience (depending in the client) will we give them the credit they deserve?

Personally I believe if they can create a way living breathing world it could revolutionise the genre. 

I would give them credit for doing what they said they would do.  That is all I ever expect them to do.
I just do not believe that they can write a program in a few months with a few people that will really create a living breathing world.  At least not at the level of detail required for 4 huge mmorpg worlds. 

What I think they have done is create a list of rules combined with RNG.  These can give you fun data results at a high level, but I am highly skeptical that it will result in a living, breathing world.

By his own words, the players should be allowed inside this world to see it before making their selections. I agree.  Let them really see the results of the map.  There is no rush here that requires locking selections other than his desire to have the next sale/auction of unclaimed land.

Ungood

Kyleran said:
The challenge is determining just how realistic does the game world need to be in order to support a fun game playing experience?

I've posted below an excerpt from their Map#3 forum blog, all facinating stuff but how does any of this lead to a gamer finding the fun?

All of this is in support of determining how well a piece of land will support player populations, but is it better or even necessary to manage this at all in a video game?

I personally dislike survival mechanics in a game, I loath being forced to eat, drink, forage, craft constantly just to survive, none of this is fun unless its kept very high level.

I recall being very annoyed in Ultima 6 or 7 as my party of characters were always whining (especially Iolo) about being hungry or thirsty, and struggling with carrying enough supplies in a limited inventory to satisfy them, but hey, at least I didn't have to grow or bake it.




"Which means the next logical step, if you’re doing this accurately, is to gather information about the biome, including the types of soil you can find there, the weather conditions there, and the types of resources (Mineral, Flora, and Fauna) there and, with that information, run a series of algorithms that simulate the natural processes that would place those resources into the world. When you do, what you get back is a “parcel set” – a set of parcels (64m cubed plots of land that make up the surface of the continent) full of data about what resources and soil types can be found there, how much water the parcel can retain after a rain, etc."

Ya know. 

I feel you.. but there are some people that positively love that kind of shit.

And this game is all about that, This game it's all about resource control on a painfully realistic level with an aging mechanic that puts a limited time upon players to make things happen and plan ahead.

Honestly, if crafting and time/resource management is not a thing for you, this game is gonna suck balls.

But, that is what can make a game great, it being for a specific demographic, even if that is not you.

Yah, this is not going to be some game were you log in Kill some goblin for their sword and go carve out your name in the history books by the end of that blade.

This is shaping up to be a whole other world. I see some players talk about getting all the peasants and paupers together to overthrow kings, but with what? Sticks and stone?

Weapons will need to be forged, for that to happen, iron will need to be harvested and coal will need to be mined, forages built, and trade skills mastered. 

Kings will have these resources, they have already spent the money to have storehouses made, and filled with what they need, their armies and allies will be outfitted, provided for, and using steel swords and armor, when the masses are still rubbing sticks together to make a fire and trying to hunt rabbit for dinner with a stone.

But if that is not the game you will be ok with playing, then gonna bet, this game is not going to be fun for you. Doubt it will be fun for people the like Goons, that will discover they can't just come in and over run the place, and that it will take years to get on even footing with the already established players.

Which is cool, I follow the belief that it is better to be the best game for the player base you want, then a mediocre game trying to convince anyone and everyone to play your game.

goldboyy45

Nilden said:

Gdemami said:

AnOldFart said:

The real question is...  

....how is that even a question? It is a corner stone of the game, it is what it is build upon.

Yeah and SpatialOS is the fabric the game is built on.

https://mmos.com/news/big-set-back-chronicles-elyria-drops-spatialos

You are my new fav poster on CoE here, you see the shitstorm going on with CoE and post citations to back up your points. Your payoff will come next year when Caspian makes a long post about CoE being canceled, then anyone doubting facts will see they should have listened to the warning signs. Shame on Caspian, shame on SbS for dragging this failure along.