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Did Video Gamers (or Mmorpg gamers) Invent Whinging About Game Design?

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,149
edited May 24 in General Gaming
Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

MisterZebubbcbullyHatefull
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Comments

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    Because Video games have set the bar so high and they continue to evolve and get better and in doing so our expectations keep rising. Chess is chess , it hasn't and won't change. Board games are board games, Monopoly is Monopoly. Sure you might own the Game of Thrones or Star Wars versions but shit don't change, you go around the board and collect real estate.


    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,451
    I kind of agree. I've never seen so much whining and crying.

    I can say, for myself, I've never whined about a game feature. I have to grind out x if I want y? Well, I really want y so "ok."

    I have to eat food? Well, ok.

    I can only carry "so much?" well ok.

    If I don't like a game I move on. Otherwise the rules are laid out and "there it is."
    ScorchienNorseGodbcbully



  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,576
    edited May 27
    I guess my friends and I are different?

    It started in D&D and we tried differing rules variations because we "whined" about combat or the magic system.

    Rage quitting was not unheard of, especially with tabletop games like Diplomacy (what a misnomer, there) or Monopoly.

    Even as far back as tag or freeze tag, there was whining going on :)

    It was certainly not as rampant as the internet makes it today, but I believe as long as humans have been playing games, we have been whining about them :)

    Video games may not have "invented" whining, but it certainly has perfected it :lol:
    mklinicKyleranAmatheSpottyGekko

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,910
      All the whining and complaining that we have heard over the years has ruined many games and gotten us where we are today ,  And why we have games like ESO , GW2, BDO and current Wow for ex..  all targetting the casual player , and the least path of resistance for 93% of the game .. Just very easy game play for the majority of Pop who many want to able to do everything and solo there way thru an MMO
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    edited May 27
    Because rules are the foundation of those games. If you change the rules, you'd change the game altogether. Video games are much more complex than that. No one nagged about Tetris or Pac-Man neither. Simple rules, simple games. 
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • AenghasAenghas Member UncommonPosts: 77
    It is kind of understood that mmo's are fluid though and moderation is the norm. When a game can and does change it's structure frequently from patch to patch and expansion to expansion the player base will always want to have some input into that.  

    It would be nice if that input wasn't always so vocal and toxic but that might be a human race problem. Goodness knows spectator sports had loud mouths with bad opinions long before computers were ever invented.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,498
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    People "complained' chess took too long .....so they added one minute turn clocks to force faster game play. 

    People complained Contract Bridge was too complicated,  and thus evolved the game of spades. (Or they felt Hearts too limiting.)

    The game of Risk? Way too many rules so my friends and I played an agreed upon variant, dumbed down so to speak.

    Horseshoes?  Just wasn't a "real" game unless played with clay landing pits as shoes weren't supposed to "bounce" 

    Axis and Allies, favorite with huge design flaws. I found an opening move for Axis which would eliminate the UK on the first turn, (if the dice rolls went right) which meant the game was effectively over so our group decided to ban it.

    Fortress America? Third in the series which was so badly designed it always ended up in nuclear armageddon. 

    As another mentioned, my friends and I were big game players, huge critics of their flaws and if we didn't like their design, we changed the rules to suit.


    ConstantineMerusAmatheMisterZebubShaighUngoodAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 518
    The whining began the moment the players thought they had the developer' ear.

    Back in the day, you never heard a peep about a game until it was released.  Only paid game testers ever saw the light of day in an alpha or beta. 

    So in reality, the whining is the result of the developers having an open discussion with the players... that and their greed over not paying people to test their games anymore and having players do it for free.

    The crap is what it is because of them quite frankly.  No one needed to know shit about a game before it was released.  No one.  Now we know too much.  Now we think we are the developers.

    We got exactly what we asked for... early access to crappy design that quite frankly we designed.
    ScorchienAmatheHatefull
  • blastermasterblastermaster Member UncommonPosts: 259
    edited May 27
    Kyleran said:
    People "complained' chess took too long .....so they added one minute turn clocks to force faster game play. 

    People complained Contract Bridge was too complicated,  and thus evolved the game of spades. (Or they felt Hearts too limiting.)

    The game of Risk? Way too many rules so my friends and I played an agreed upon variant, dumbed down so to speak.

    Horseshoes?  Just wasn't a "real" game unless played with clay landing pits as shoes weren't supposed to "bounce" 

    Axis and Allies, favorite with huge design flaws. I found an opening move for Axis which would eliminate the UK on the first turn, (if the dice rolls went right) which meant the game was effectively over so our group decided to ban it.

    Fortress America? Third in the series which was so badly designed it always ended up in nuclear armageddon. 

    As another mentioned, my friends and I were big game players, huge critics of their flaws and if we didn't like their design, we changed the rules to suit.



    You guys were "pre-historic modders"!  :)

    At least, it sounds more like you "modded" the games to fit you desire and what flaws you saw in them than just people who bitch and whine that something is not how they think it should be and ask the creators to change it to fit their needs (lots of people enjoyed Risk how it was created).

    Anyways, I agree with you that critics has always been present.
    I think that it's just that now, it's more apparent because it's so easy to do it and reach a big crowd instantly. (You used to criticize stuff with the 3-4 friends playing with you, but in EQ, you would reach a heck of a lot more people at once.)

    But I don't think it's just for video games, it's a general thing in the era we live in.
    Used to be that you could only get a movie critic from either the "professional" critics or your social circle (friends, families and co-workers).  Now, you open up the internet and, critics/reviews,etc. take an awful lot of space up there in the clouds.  And you end up getting millions of signature on a petition to have a TV show changed because it's not how you thought it should have been...


    AlBQuirky
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    Hell...  basketball kind of requires even teams so when there would just be 3 of us in my friends backyard we would play “Horse” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_basketball

    Or football on asphalt can hurt so we played 2-hand touch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_football_(American)

    Heck just Google “Monopoly Free Parking” and see the way rules were changed.
    https://monopoly.fandom.com/wiki/Free_Parking

    AlBQuirky

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    Er ... what!? People have been bitching about gaming ever since there has been a venue to do so. In mass back before MMORPGs and indeed before the internet was even a thing, we did so in gaming magazines, anyone remember them? For table top we complained in either Dragon or White Dwarf magazine. In my own two gaming groups we bitched about things such as the ridiculous number of supplements sold for the AD&D 2nd edition. What I would consider D&D DLC. I also remember a flaming row when they released a new edition of Gamma World and we found out they'd swapped out the D20 system for the incredibly shitty Marvel RPG game system.
    And I won't even begin to go into the friction caused by the group having to vote unanimously on what system we all wanted to play, AD&D, Hero System, G.U.R.P.S, Paranoia, Rolemaster, RuneQuest, Shadowrun, etc. Or games almost none of us wanted to play. Traveler, too complicated. Call of Cthulhu, sanity system sucked massive donkey dick, Marvel Super-heroes, stupid totally random character generation combined with an incredibly over complex, yet totally unsatisfying combat system. Star Wars D20, everyone wanted to be a Jedi or a Bounty Hunter, we always ended up playing something else due to the bruised feelings from everyone wanting to Game Master. Stormbringer, do not get attached to your character. etc.

    I also remember some angry evenings after we ended up playing never endless and soul crushing sessions of board games such as Talisman or Civilization. And yes I have personally seen people complain about the rules of chess, because they just weren't into the game. And I've even seen true chess aficionados have a melt down because they felt speed chess was a game fit only for uncouth morons. And let's not even talk about Go.

    So sorry but my gaming experience doesn't seem to match yours at all.
    MadFrenchieAlBQuirky

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    People "complained' chess took too long .....so they added one minute turn clocks to force faster game play. 

    People complained Contract Bridge was too complicated,  and thus evolved the game of spades. (Or they felt Hearts too limiting.)

    The game of Risk? Way too many rules so my friends and I played an agreed upon variant, dumbed down so to speak.

    Horseshoes?  Just wasn't a "real" game unless played with clay landing pits as shoes weren't supposed to "bounce" 

    Axis and Allies, favorite with huge design flaws. I found an opening move for Axis which would eliminate the UK on the first turn, (if the dice rolls went right) which meant the game was effectively over so our group decided to ban it.

    Fortress America? Third in the series which was so badly designed it always ended up in nuclear armageddon. 

    As another mentioned, my friends and I were big game players, huge critics of their flaws and if we didn't like their design, we changed the rules to suit.


    Oh man I know exactly what you mean about Axis and Allies. That is the only board game I've ever played where the results actually caused an adult to hurl dice at my head at full force. Talk about a friendship killer.
    rodingo

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,012
    If you never bitched about how a game was designed you lack critical thinking. Let's play a single game of chess, I will play as white so you can moan about black being inferior.


    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,191
    edited May 27
    Before video games we had house rules, once video games started we expected new video game design to conform to our house rules. That did not always work out. :)
    AlBQuirky

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  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,649
    edited May 27
    Amathe said:


    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?

    Numbers and anonimity is why.

    Get a couple of thousand anonymous folks into a chat room playing any game and watch the bitching and moaning that ensues. 

    Board games, table top games, card games and the rest you named are all played in person (no anonimity shield) and in much smaller numbers (never underestimate the stupidity of masses)

    Bottom line it's not an apples to apples comparison 
    AmatheScotAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    on the flip side of this..

    I remember people losing their shit in a chess match over the use of En passant.

    I recall countless D&D game sessions that would devolve into a several hour bitch session because someone wasn't allowed to get their way. 

    I recall gamers having huge arguments about the rules of a single card in a MtG game, so much so, we would share stories from the card developer about how players would interpret rules and the like, which gave rise to the need for onsite judges at these card game tournaments.

    In fact, your recollection are so abstract from my own that you sound like you must have lived in the PleasantVille of gaming.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,419
    I'm not certain that games 'invented whining'.  But I am certain that the availability of internet (and before that, BBS) forums facilitated it.



    DMKanoScotAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,821
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    People "complained' chess took too long .....so they added one minute turn clocks to force faster game play. 

    People complained Contract Bridge was too complicated,  and thus evolved the game of spades. (Or they felt Hearts too limiting.)

    The game of Risk? Way too many rules so my friends and I played an agreed upon variant, dumbed down so to speak.

    Horseshoes?  Just wasn't a "real" game unless played with clay landing pits as shoes weren't supposed to "bounce" 

    Axis and Allies, favorite with huge design flaws. I found an opening move for Axis which would eliminate the UK on the first turn, (if the dice rolls went right) which meant the game was effectively over so our group decided to ban it.

    Fortress America? Third in the series which was so badly designed it always ended up in nuclear armageddon. 

    As another mentioned, my friends and I were big game players, huge critics of their flaws and if we didn't like their design, we changed the rules to suit.


    Officially, WOW your old ?. I still remember the evening snuck off into K-Bee Toys while my mother was in the store next door. I dragged her in and begged her to by me this awesome looking game Axis and Allies. She did.

    We got home and she attempted to read the rules and play with me, but now way I was gonna understand, and she certainly didn’t care enough to make sure I understood. 

    I never did play that game for real, but back on topic. YOU ARE OLD 
    AlBQuirky
  • diznikkadiznikka Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?



    Dunno but did u invent the word Whinging?
  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 627
    Pathfinder outsold D&D from 2011 to 2014. 

    Just didn't hear much about it since not everyone was playing in a big ass animated chat room.
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,086
    I think it's an issue of complex game design and rules verse simple game design and rules. By default most board games are based around a simple set of rules. Otherwise it becomes time consuming to play. There are a few exceptions and these exceptions usually have arguments on the rules.
    It's actually good practice to listen to the complaints. For a genre like MMORPGs there will be issues with the rules that prevent fair gameplay. Granted a lot of the complaints aren't valid, but do shed light on other game design issues.
    Let's take for instance a game that does not properly balance ranged units with poor monster AI and PVP. Usually what happens is that everyone chooses DPS ranged units and not many play the other undesirable roles. But the complaints are usually about how a ranged class cannot deal with a situation. Usually the result of missing someone of the intended role.
  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,869
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    Long before I played video games, I played other types of games: board games, table top games, card games, outdoor games (like horseshoes), juke boxes, and so on. And I can't ever remember once when I or my friends griped about the game rules or design.

    Imagine playing chess and hearing someone say "But why can the bishops only travel diagonally, and why can't they hop over pieces in their way?"  

    I don't recall ever coming across that until DAY ONE of my first mmorpg. I logged into EQ and heard people in chat saying derisively "Thanks Verant!" I have been hearing game criticism ever since.

    This feels odd to me. Why do video games, seemingly more so than other games, seem to lend themselves to player critique?
    People "complained' chess took too long .....so they added one minute turn clocks to force faster game play. 

    People complained Contract Bridge was too complicated,  and thus evolved the game of spades. (Or they felt Hearts too limiting.)

    The game of Risk? Way too many rules so my friends and I played an agreed upon variant, dumbed down so to speak.

    Horseshoes?  Just wasn't a "real" game unless played with clay landing pits as shoes weren't supposed to "bounce" 

    Axis and Allies, favorite with huge design flaws. I found an opening move for Axis which would eliminate the UK on the first turn, (if the dice rolls went right) which meant the game was effectively over so our group decided to ban it.

    Fortress America? Third in the series which was so badly designed it always ended up in nuclear armageddon. 

    As another mentioned, my friends and I were big game players, huge critics of their flaws and if we didn't like their design, we changed the rules to suit.


    I think my love for Risk, Axis & Allies, and the old Commodore-64 game Archon is what has me addicted to the Total War series of games.  I always felt Fortress America was kind of meh.  

    But yeh, people complaining about game "design" and creating house rules as a result can go way back.   However, thanks to the internet and metacritic it seems the complaining is an expected norm no matter the game.  Sometimes the complaints are warranted, but usually just annoying.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I'm pretty sure an Englishman invented "whinging".
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    I'm pretty sure an Englishman invented "whinging".
    Well you conquer half the world people going to whinge about it after all, so probably is our fault we inspired others to do it so much :p
    AlBQuirkyFlyByKnight
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    I'm about to look up "whinging" on Urban Dictionary.  Should I be afraid?
    AlBQuirky
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