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WTF is going on with Ashes

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,205
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Galadourn said:
    I wouldn't mind if they ditched the action combat part entirely and simply focused on well-designed tab-target combat.
    I’d agree but think that is very unlikely.  If anything I’d see them going with all action combat(but think that’s unlikely as well)

    The plan, if they can't get the action combat to work out properly is to do tab combat.   
    Was that plan announced before or after the Battle Royale?
    I can confirm after.

    I want to say I had that discussion with him before BR, like all the way back in Dec 17 / Jan 18, but a lot of discord channels were prunned

    So I can only hard confirm it after BR

    Hearing this just makes me think they've pretty much gotten no where.
    KyleranGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,139
    Albatroes said:
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Galadourn said:
    I wouldn't mind if they ditched the action combat part entirely and simply focused on well-designed tab-target combat.
    I’d agree but think that is very unlikely.  If anything I’d see them going with all action combat(but think that’s unlikely as well)

    The plan, if they can't get the action combat to work out properly is to do tab combat.   
    Was that plan announced before or after the Battle Royale?
    I can confirm after.

    I want to say I had that discussion with him before BR, like all the way back in Dec 17 / Jan 18, but a lot of discord channels were prunned

    So I can only hard confirm it after BR

    Hearing this just makes me think they've pretty much gotten no where.
    The wheels did appear to come off around the end of 2018, about the time the BR launched and then quickly tanked.

    For most of 2019, especially the past 3 months they've gone mostly dark, with the only info being their dev blogs on various game designs. (With no actual in game demonstration of said features.)


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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    I don't care if they deliver the KS fantasy combat system. They just need to make combat fun and satisfying, action or tab-target. Pick one, do it well and move on. If they do it well and pull it off they can weather the heat for over promising and under delivering. 
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,994
    So that's two rethinks then, BR and action combat, what's that six months development, a year?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,139
    Scot said:
    So that's two rethinks then, BR and action combat, what's that six months development, a year?
    18 more months?
    JamesGoblin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,205
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    So that's two rethinks then, BR and action combat, what's that six months development, a year?
    18 more months?
    Probably the one thing that worries me more than the action combat is that they seriously think it'll just be easy to switch over to a 'good tab targeting' system if the action combat isn't good (keep in mind that the game is supposed to have both or was marketed to have both). That's a bit arrogant, especially since their first try at it like 3 years ago was pretty awful.
    Scot
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    edited May 2019
    Albatroes said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    So that's two rethinks then, BR and action combat, what's that six months development, a year?
    18 more months?
    Probably the one thing that worries me more than the action combat is that they seriously think it'll just be easy to switch over to a 'good tab targeting' system if the action combat isn't good (keep in mind that the game is supposed to have both or was marketed to have both). That's a bit arrogant, especially since their first try at it like 3 years ago was pretty awful.
    Went something like this. They showed us a solid tabtargetting game. Sold us on what they were going to do. They took our money. Few months later started this BR and the fans of BR got upset the combat looked to slow. So they kept adding more and more twitch skills. Thats when they said on each class you will be able to pick twitch skills or tab target skills depending on the play style you want to play. BR is to work out the twitch play, tab target testing is coming later. Only these two systems are very different and dont mix. A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    KyleranAmatheArteriusMadFrenchieScotCatibrie
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,555
    Kyleran said:
    Did they officially cancel the BR? It just seemed to fade away rather than a by formal announcement. 
    Right how do you fail a BR in 2019?
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    Kyleran said:
    Did they officially cancel the BR? It just seemed to fade away rather than a by formal announcement. 
    Right how do you fail a BR in 2019?
    BR is still full steam ahead. 
    Catibrie
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    Not good signs.  I have never believed they were going to even come close to the "revolutionary" marketing BS but damn man.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,139
    Kyleran said:
    Did they officially cancel the BR? It just seemed to fade away rather than a by formal announcement. 
    Right how do you fail a BR in 2019?
    Well naming it "Apocalypse" appears to have turned out to be a bit of a prophetic omen yes?

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    edited May 2019
    jahlon said:
    Galadourn said:
    I wouldn't mind if they ditched the action combat part entirely and simply focused on well-designed tab-target combat.
    I’d agree but think that is very unlikely.  If anything I’d see them going with all action combat(but think that’s unlikely as well)

    The plan, if they can't get the action combat to work out properly is to do tab combat.   
    Yea and orginally they were talking about a hybrid between tab targeting and Action Combat like GW2 yet they are trying to allow both Action Combat and Tab Targeting.  This is because they listened to all the dumb asses who endlessly cried for Action Combat and now the game is a complete fucking mess.   Action Combat does not work for MMORPGS period, it works great in single or multiplayer games but not in MMORPGS.  RPGs are supposed to be slower paced and more though out than click buttons endlessly like Diablo.  Yea Diablo is fun as a small game but not an MMORPG.

    They should just mimic AA combat.   Tab Target while you can cast on the move.  
    Nanfoodle
  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    Torval
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    edited May 2019
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    Post edited by Nanfoodle on
    MadFrenchieCatibrie
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,205
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    I will agree with one line you said in your livestream recap, that good systems can carry tab targeting combat, which is honestly what this game is mostly (or is being advertised) as being about, yet the combat seems to be like a 3+ year process for them for some reason. Honestly, ESO is a prime example of other systems actually carrying the game outside of its combat (even though its not my cup of tea). The combat isn't for everyone but a lot of people do play it because you can do stuff like steal/kill npcs, loot obscene amounts of stuff, skill flexibility, etc. They really need to crank out more actual game systems (like examples of caravan runs, etc), to keep the masses and potential backers hooks, rather than spending so much time on a combat system that will be hit/miss and graphics.
  • WedlenWedlen Member UncommonPosts: 133
    This is why i never back games with kickstarter etc etc. There are thousands of games in design ith early access and crow funding etc. 99.9% of them will never come of anything. This was never the case years ago.I feel like these are mostly just scams. People saying we can get easy money and a job and if it doesnt work out them oh well we had a job for xx amount of years while attempting to make a game. I dont trust indie companies. Never will. This game will be a flop. Sad. WE need a BIG PUBLISHER, WoW  beating, Western MMO that isnt P2W at all.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    edited May 2019
    Wedlen said:
    This is why i never back games with kickstarter etc etc. There are thousands of games in design ith early access and crow funding etc. 99.9% of them will never come of anything. This was never the case years ago.I feel like these are mostly just scams. People saying we can get easy money and a job and if it doesnt work out them oh well we had a job for xx amount of years while attempting to make a game. I dont trust indie companies. Never will. This game will be a flop. Sad. WE need a BIG PUBLISHER, WoW  beating, Western MMO that isnt P2W at all.
    BIG PUBLISHERS are taken what made MMOs great and turned them into some odd hybrid of MMO/MOBA kind of game. They have been cranking them out for so long, MMOs have become throw away games. MMOs started out as game changes by small studios coming up with someone new. Was when corp got their fingers into it, repackaged it, streamlined it and follow every trend they thought could make them money. Thats why many  MMOers  are still playing MMOs from 10-20 years ago and dropping everything new. Small studios do have a real chance at winning back this lost market. 
    ScotCatibrie
  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,810
    I have always supported that, no matter how nice action combat may look and feel, it's against the fundamental idea of MMORPGs which is character development; the sense of character development  and progression in RPGs comes with the extra skills one gets to earn and use, not through twitch reflexes which can negate the "character sheet progress" of the player.

    At most, a combat system like Neverwinter might work, but that also only offers very few skills to players to use at a time and relies more on visible cues and quick moves.

    So while it might sound as a regression (if) they announce ditching action combat, I would say it's a step in the right direction.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,648
    Erevus said:
    Just calm down. Indie companies don't operate as big ones do.
    Which is a good and a bad thing.
    Good because having control of your own game makes you deliver what you were dreaming of, and bad because time will always be against you.
    I haven't backed up this game but i'm definitely waiting for it.
    So take your time, go out, enjoy life and take a break from it.

    NO no this is not about TIME,as pointed out by a VERY close affiliated friend of the owner,this game has been stagnant for a long time.
    When we talk about TIME  ,we assume work being done but taking longer,NO WORK being done is not to be confused with the same ideal.

    What they did in the past year was create inside drama,some people let go,some fell out of favor with the owner,some distrust and what seems to be a beginning struggle for money.So this BR idea comes around and CLAIMS it is only for testing which anyone with half a brain saw as total bull shit.
    They are building a rpg,BR should have NOTHING to do with it...EVER.So it looked like a bid to test the waters ,to see if they could get lazy,cut the rpg short and just go for a BR game and cash in similar to how Epic Games did with Fortnite.

    I have heard from inside people that this owner is passionate about the game,problem is we have not seen that over the last year.My gut gets a very strong inclination this is very similar to Chronicles of Elyria.He had a PLAN,an idea for his game,he hoped it would garner a lot of interest,perhaps some big investors but that plan has failed.So now just like Chronicles of Elyria is stuck going nowhere.

    My gut thinks this guy now wishes he never took this on,that doesn't mean he is still not passionate,he very well could be but i feel he wishes he could redo all of this.Putting myself into his brain,he is thinking,this wil NOT pay off in the long run,i am simply running up costs that will likely struggle to recoup.soooooo now what,that is what he is thinking.That is why the BR idea popped in out of nowhere.
    Kyleran

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,648
    I really feel this guy is STUCK in the mud,he doesn't know what direction to take,we might see this go nowhere for another year.Nobody an tell us exactly what he is thinking,except him the owner.Interviews will NOT tell the truth,so don't even bother going that route as it won't give us any real truths to what this guy is thinking.Only facts we will have is what we see and how we perceive what is going on with the facts.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,507
    Nanfoodle said:
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    By always hitting for average damage while the twitch player can crit but also miss?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Kyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


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    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,092
    lahnmir said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    By always hitting for average damage while the twitch player can crit but also miss?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Think about how healing would factor into that.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    edited May 2019
    lahnmir said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    By always hitting for average damage while the twitch player can crit but also miss?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Think about how healing would factor into that.
    Tank: Hay healer you got my back? You ready for this?
    (((An arrow zips past and misses)))
    Healer: Yes, hay is that an archer in the bush? (((HEAD SHOT, HEALER DEAD))))
    Tank: I will avenge you healer (((HEAD SHOT, TANK DEAD)))

    At the gravyard
    Healer: Good thing we hit for a higher average damage
    (((Two arrows fly by and miss)))
    Tank: I think he is camping our respawn (((HEAD SHOT, DEAD)))
    Healer: (((Starts to cast heal but it does not help the corpse))) 


    POINT: You cant heal headshots
    Catibrie
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,507
    Nanfoodle said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    By always hitting for average damage while the twitch player can crit but also miss?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Think about how healing would factor into that.
    Tank: Hay healer you got my back? You ready for this?
    (((An arrow zips past and misses)))
    Healer: Yes, hay is that an archer in the bush? (((HEAD SHOT, HEALER DEAD))))
    Tank: I will avenge you healer (((HEAD SHOT, TANK DEAD)))

    At the gravyard
    Healer: Good thing we hit for a higher average damage
    (((Two arrows fly by and miss)))
    Tank: I think he is camping our respawn (((HEAD SHOT, DEAD)))
    Healer: (((Starts to cast heal but it does not help the corpse))) 


    POINT: You cant heal headshots
    Be a bit more creative guys. healers could use active skills instead of reactive, shielding spells, enemy weakening skills, a bit less actual healing and a bit more debuffing or increasing stats like max health etc. Spells with effects that nulify the next 200 dmg for instance, I see it working rather well to be honest, not with your boring standard healer layout though.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Chimborazo
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,270
    lahnmir said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    lahnmir said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    jahlon said:
    Nanfoodle said:
     A char speced tab target will not play well vs twitch skills. This will force the tab target player to 1, dump the game or 2, play twitch skills. This is not the game I was sold. 
    You have absolutely no way to prove or disprove that


    They are walking a line no company has ever done. Letting people pick skills based on tab targetting or twitch skills. So when the twitch player is head shoting the tab target player for 10 x more damage (kill shot) because thats something Ashes has on twitch skills. How does a tab target player compete with that? 
    By always hitting for average damage while the twitch player can crit but also miss?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Think about how healing would factor into that.
    Tank: Hay healer you got my back? You ready for this?
    (((An arrow zips past and misses)))
    Healer: Yes, hay is that an archer in the bush? (((HEAD SHOT, HEALER DEAD))))
    Tank: I will avenge you healer (((HEAD SHOT, TANK DEAD)))

    At the gravyard
    Healer: Good thing we hit for a higher average damage
    (((Two arrows fly by and miss)))
    Tank: I think he is camping our respawn (((HEAD SHOT, DEAD)))
    Healer: (((Starts to cast heal but it does not help the corpse))) 


    POINT: You cant heal headshots
    Be a bit more creative guys. healers could use active skills instead of reactive, shielding spells, enemy weakening skills, a bit less actual healing and a bit more debuffing or increasing stats like max health etc. Spells with effects that nulify the next 200 dmg for instance, I see it working rather well to be honest, not with your boring standard healer layout though.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    So can the Twitch players. Fact is, if you can play two ranged classes and one lets you get 10 x damage randomly. In the end giving you say 25% more DPS over the course of a night of playing. What would you pick? Now think of that on a large scale, a guild of twitch players vs tab target players. Who would you pick to win with just head shot ability alone? Thats just one of dozens of advantages twitch skills will have vs target.
    Catibrie
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