NEW first generations, don't have to have flaws !

delete5230

Often people associate first generation mmorpgs with:
-deep flaws 
-bugs 
-wrong decisions 
-bad UI
-bad chat systems

Other flaws of first generation mmorpgs are:
-10 hour raids only (exaggerating) 
-can't leave cities without a 6 player group
-bad graphics 
-bad coding, and unable to run on computers


Why do people automatically expect a NEW first generation game to be poorly designed ?

People instantly resort to comparison of Everquest, Final fantasy 11, Dark Age of Camelot...Their OLD !!!!

People often offer advice to play P1999
It would suck for a new player
-it's OLD and dated !!!!
-it's flawed and broken !!!!



The point I'm making is very clear.... They were made a long time ago.
Nothing has been made old school, without the above flaws. 

How can anyone prove a NEW well designed first generation mmorpg wouldn't work.

Theirs NEVER BEEN ONE 

Kyleran

delete5230 said:

 
Why do people automatically expect a NEW first generation game to be poorly designed ?

-wrong decisions
 

You answered your own question.

Gdemami

...ever tried to swim against high tide?

That's why.

QuarterStack

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Basically:
People assume that because the original "real" first-gen MMORPGs had flaws that are commonly raised against them, that new MMORPGs in development based on old-school gameplay will automatically have similar flaws. However, since no "modern old-school" MMORPG has been released yet, there's no basis for that concern.

And I can see the point in that. 1st and even 2nd gen MMORPG devs were still learning and, frankly, creating and defining the genre. It was kind of a Wild West. The ideas and tech were all new and there was no "template" to follow. These days, there's much better technology. There's more platforms designed specifically for massive persistent worlds, and a much larger knowledge pool available to work with. So, a "modern classic MMORPG" needn't have all the same "mistakes" and "problems" the 1st and 2nd gen MMORPGs had.

I use quotes around mistakes and problems because a lot of people use those terms to describe things they didn't personally like, even if they were technically sound and part of the design (group-centric design, etc). All these years later, and people still don't discern between "feature or system I subjectively dislike" and "objective problem that needs to be fixed".

Kyleran

QuarterStack said:

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Basically:

I use quotes around mistakes and problems because a lot of people use those terms to describe things they didn't personally like, even if they were technically sound and part of the design (group-centric design, etc). All these years later, and people still don't discern between "feature or system I subjectively dislike" and "objective problem that needs to be fixed".

I think we can all agree while bugs plagued early MMOs, there's little evidence the sins of the past aren't often repeated in the new games of today.

What the OP often means by "deep flaws" are quite often intentional designs which some believe are what made 1st gen games great and essential to include in any modern revival.

Regarding "bad" graphics for their day most MMORPGs were considered fairly cutting edge, after 1st playing Lineage 1, DAOC blew me away with its visuals. 

But you know, I had to purchase one of the "nine" supported video cards to run it well. Gamers with lower end PC'S need not apply.

btdt

All MMOs have been template based since inception... they were born from MUDs and DnDs... the challenge was in learning to make the game in an era where bandwidth and system resources were far more restrictive than they are now.  They could have made games that were literally unplayable resource wise back then... but that wasn't the point.  The challenge was in trying to make a game that was playable by the masses.  That was the technological hurdle at hand... not whether or not some combat or animation system was on the cutting edge of design.

Now they have very little restrictions placed upon them... hence the almost photorealistic graphics... but the game itself is still the same game it always was because even in 2019, chess is still chess no matter how you skin it.

Scot

I have been on a ten hour raid, there was an issue with people getting together so we went on standby, waiting for an alert via Skype. And it was not a first generation MMORPG, just shows what time hogs those 2nd generation MMORPGS were.

There is an assumption among some of our posters that later MMORPGS were developed on this principle: Lets look at all the problems in 1st gen, sort those out and build on that.

Where as the changes were mostly down to market led principles and picking your   template for design based on how big the player base was. So something like marketing wanting soloing to top level destroyed grouping, rather than just trying to find better ways to group. And those templates (WoW) brought along every issue WoW had. Some are still not sorted out, like the relationship between players, crafters, auction houses, direct player trading, and player stalls...and of course the cash shop. Every iteration on that I have seen still has big issues.

rounner

The concern I'm sure is more around this kind of thing:

- Early games had less to do and so players did things they would now find boring

- Expectations were lower and so people would do things they would not now do

- Game culture has changed so players are more focused on rushing to end game competitively rather than experiencing the content

- The logistics of information sharing was not well established (min maxing, wiki's, mapping, quest guides) and so there was more wonder to the adventure

QuarterStack

Kyleran said:

QuarterStack said:

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Basically:

I use quotes around mistakes and problems because a lot of people use those terms to describe things they didn't personally like, even if they were technically sound and part of the design (group-centric design, etc). All these years later, and people still don't discern between "feature or system I subjectively dislike" and "objective problem that needs to be fixed".

I think we can all agree while bugs plagued early MMOs, there's little evidence the sins of the past aren't often repeated in the new games of today.

What the OP often means by "deep flaws" are quite often intentional designs which some believe are what made 1st gen games great and essential to include in any modern revival.

Regarding "bad" graphics for their day most MMORPGs were considered fairly cutting edge, after 1st playing Lineage 1, DAOC blew me away with its visuals. 

But you know, I had to purchase one of the "nine" supported video cards to run it well.

Well if we're talking actual bugs - as in, broken code - then yes, we can discuss that objectively.

If by "deep flaws" we're talking things a given player didn't like, well... That kinda goes back to my point of how people don't discern between "objective problems" and "personal preference".

Some of those systems that people might consider deep flaws contributed to what made those old-school MMORPGS memorable. They're what made the worlds feel vast and dangerous. They made community and player inter-dependence matter. And so forth. Creeping convenience in MMO design has killed all of that off. It sucked the soul right out of the genre, to the point where people are now actively seeking games to bring those things back.

I think it's important to not only look at the system at face value, but to also understand how those systems affected the way people played and interacted.

At the end of the day, there are people who still enjoy and prefer that kind of classic playstyle, who don't see those features as "deep flaws" or "sins" or what not. That there are games in development looking to cater to those people, and bring back at least a big part of that experience is a good thing. Of course, I know there are people who don't like the idea, but well... they have dozens of other titles to choose from.

I've never been bothered by old or "bad" graphics. -shrug- lol

Gdemami

DMKano said:

That is absurd, why would they?

....because thst is what makes them old-school.

You fix those and you get "WOW".

QuarterStack

DMKano said:

QuarterStack said:

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Basically:
People assume that because the original "real" first-gen MMORPGs had flaws that are commonly raised against them, that new MMORPGs in development based on old-school gameplay will automatically have similar flaws. 

That is a bad assumption. 

I dont believe that games that are based on old school mmorpgs must have the same flaws.

That is absurd, why would they?

I agree. It is an absurd assumption. That was just my interpretation of the OP.

I think it's more of a "fear" some people have regarding to new  "old-school style" MMOs that are being developed. Of course, I also think that's absurd, because if they don't like that playstyle, they can just choose not to play. -shrug-

iixviiiix

rounner said:

The concern I'm sure is more around this kind of thing:

- Early games had less to do and so players did things they would now find boring

- Expectations were lower and so people would do things they would not now do

- Game culture has changed so players are more focused on rushing to end game competitively rather than experiencing the content

- The logistics of information sharing was not well established (min maxing, wiki's, mapping, quest guides) and so there was more wonder to the adventure

Wasn't those things are same as new games ?

Mendel

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Sadly, this site imposes no restrictions on a delete post coming anywhere near a point.

Thane

delete5230 said:

Often people associate first generation mmorpgs with:
-deep flaws 
-bugs 
-wrong decisions 
-bad UI
-bad chat systems

Other flaws of first generation mmorpgs are:
-10 hour raids only (exaggerating) 
-can't leave cities without a 6 player group
-bad graphics 
-bad coding, and unable to run on computers


Why do people automatically expect a NEW first generation game to be poorly designed ?

People instantly resort to comparison of Everquest, Final fantasy 11, Dark Age of Camelot...Their OLD !!!!

People often offer advice to play P1999
It would suck for a new player
-it's OLD and dated !!!!
-it's flawed and broken !!!!



The point I'm making is very clear.... They were made a long time ago.
Nothing has been made old school, without the above flaws. 

How can anyone prove a NEW well designed first generation mmorpg wouldn't work.

Theirs NEVER BEEN ONE 

there are no "new first generation" mmos.

first generation mmos are a thing of the past, tho there have been a few that worked, very well indeed.

we are at 4th gen now i guess, and THEY fuck up. nothing they can do to be first gen mmos anymore. you simply can't be your own grandpa, unless you are fry i guess

Ungood

The major problem with the older games, is they were breaking new ground, and in doing so, obviously some poor or even outright bad decisions were going to be made.

The major problem with new games is they don't seem to learn from the screw ups of the older games, and tend to make the same mistakes over and over again.

This is why, when someone wants to make a new MMO, even if it based on an older MMO's IP, the goal should always be to fix what went wrong with the old one, while augmenting what went right.

The problem here, is that not everyone agrees with what was "wrong" and what was "right" and therein lies the problem.

Amathe

The OP is saying that old games are bad but that new games based on old games do not also have to be bad. 

Of course, OP assumes everyone buys into what he thinks is bad.

Kyleran

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Sadly, this site imposes no restrictions on a delete post coming anywhere near a point.

Oh, I don't mind them, let's me respond with pretty much anything I want with little chance of being accused of going off topic.

Amathe

Kyleran said:

Sadly, this site imposes no restrictions on a delete post coming anywhere near a point.

For many people @delete5230 posts are like a beach ball at a stadium event. People just bounce them around in any direction, trying not to let one hit the ground. A comparable amount of thought goes into them as well.

Panther2103

Ungood said:

The problem here, is that not everyone agrees with what was "wrong" and what was "right" and therein lies the problem.

This is the biggest part of all arguments regarding MMORPG's in general.

Everyone has a different take on what is good or what is bad based on when they started playing something or what they enjoyed about it. 

I don't know if I can think of a change that a majority of people hated other than NGE for SWG, but even then we have the private server with post NGE and it seems to have a big playerbase.

Mendel

Ungood said:

The major problem with the older games, is they were breaking new ground, and in doing so, obviously some poor or even outright bad decisions were going to be made.

The major problem with new games is they don't seem to learn from the screw ups of the older games, and tend to make the same mistakes over and over again.

This is why, when someone wants to make a new MMO, even if it based on an older MMO's IP, the goal should always be to fix what went wrong with the old one, while augmenting what went right.

The problem here, is that not everyone agrees with what was "wrong" and what was "right" and therein lies the problem.

Generally good stuff, @Ungood.

Games do tend to repeat the mistakes of the past, lavishly duplicating games down to the faults.  That isn't good design, and doesn't really advance the genre.

I do vary a tiny bit about the goal of a new MMO should be to fix what went wrong and augmenting what went right.  I'd expand that to "augmenting and expanding on".  The goal of fixing what is broken is primarily the job of the original game.  A goal to "fix and continue with different content/lore" seems too short-sighted for my tastes.

A game is a lot of work, and a lot of money.  Show me something new and original for that effort.

lahnmir

DMKano said:

QuarterStack said:

DMKano said:

I read it twice.

Still no clue what the point was.

Basically:
People assume that because the original "real" first-gen MMORPGs had flaws that are commonly raised against them, that new MMORPGs in development based on old-school gameplay will automatically have similar flaws. 

That is a bad assumption. 

I dont believe that games that are based on old school mmorpgs must have the same flaws.

That is absurd, why would they?

Because one mans flaws are another mans features

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Amathe

lahnmir said:

Because one mans flaws are another mans features

Thanks for understanding. If only there were more posters like you.

Wizardry

I agree with OP 100%.

It's not like rpg's are some new genre,still in a feeling out process.We have tons of top quality tools,game engines and the market is loaded with talented people.\

There is only one reason for flawed/buggy messes and that is more care about making money than worrying about the product.
It started several years ago then became such an easy thing for devs to sell unfinished buggy games they all see it,saw it and now a large majority are doing it.

However what is worse ,an unfinished buggy game being sold to us or devs asking for tons of money up front before even starting a game?
Nobody at Blizzard or SOE or Square Enix asked anyone for money up front,Wow FFXI..FFXIV.EQ1-2 were made by the devs with the devs money.

I cannot say the same about Zeni max because i know they get loads of money from investors.Once you allow people to get involved that know more about money than gaming,it is a really bad sign for the gamer.

Wizardry

I am actually ok with bugs/flaws if i see some effort or something good in the game.For myself it is a no brainer,a game could be flawless,100% polished but if it is a crap game,i am not spending a dime on it.So as long as there is some signs the bugs and problem areas are being worked on,i am ok with a bit rushed.