Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

We need a miracle to happen, it's been too long.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,823
We need a miracle to happen, it's been too long. 

Something happened several years ago where big business changed what mmorpgs are.  It was a revamp with no choice and no arguments. People were unaware when it happened.  No one expected it.  Many of us couldn't except it and refused to believe it happened.  After all it came without warning....... Even I struggle with the complete overhaul of what happened to our beloved massive multi player on line game.  Yet I consider myself a strong realest of good and bad in all things.  If something is bad I recognize it and except it quickly.  Yet I struggle with accepting what mmorpgs had become...... It must be deep love and disappointment.


This post was inspired by DarkestOverlord. Like most of us he's struggling. Hoping he's missing that golden mmorpg that doesn't exist....... With 100% confidence I could say were all in the same shoes !!!....... None of us can give a real good answer. 

  

I do admire the "EXTREME OPTIMISM" of most everyone here, it's a GREAT quality..... But it comes to the point "it is what it is".  Even the poster with a game to play would drop it if a real mmorpg were to come along. 

BUT we would need several choices and several variations for different taste.   As of now we have zero of anything, only what will put up with.


Better day's ahead, I feel it..... A flower dies, only for a new one to take it's place.... A heavy market can be had waiting for someone to fill it :)  
Gdemamiblamo2000DarkestOverlordMikeha
«13

Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,823
    edited May 12
    When I discovered my first mmorpg around 2004, 
    From World of Warcraft > Dungeons and Dragons Online> Everquest 2> Vanguard...... I sat back one day and thought.... Just imagine what the future holds as technology gets better.

    I never expected a turn of events such as what happened ! 
    Ungoodblamo2000jonp200Allucard2233DarkestOverlordMargravedeniteraleos
  • rush1984rush1984 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    i feel lost without a mmorpg to play, i was playing wow again but ive decided to wait till 8.2 since im basically full BiS and the content just isnt there, there is literally no other mmorpgs  to play that interest me and none on the horizon that look decent, I'm a PVE raider/player.
    I just finished dragonquest 11 which was awesome btw took 100 hours to complete recommend that game if anyone is in the same situation.

    Any recommendations? 
    delete5230blamo2000jonp200Allucard2233DarkestOverlord
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,240
    edited May 12
    The MMORPG as we know it will come back one day.  The problem is, and I've been saying this until I'm blue in the face, that the development cycle for MMORPG's is just too long.

    Power gamers these days will spend 2-4 weeks burning through content that took a development team 5+ years to create before earning a single penny on the game.  Then they get 1-2 month of subs from 300,000 people and then those people unsub and run off to the next hot title.

    Why go through the effort when you can get people these days to pay to playtest your game from the Alpha state, release it unfinished in Beta as a "live game", charge full price when you officially release it, have loot boxes, have a cash shop, have DLC's...

    There's just far far too much money to be made in short development cycle games these days to even bother with making a WoW killer, and since WoW has now officially killed itself, there's really not that high benchmark to chase anymore.

    However, all that being said, when AI can be leveraged to create a world, create NPC's, create quests and even create end game content at some point, and do it in 1/4 of the time that a team of humans can do it, then the MMORPG as we knew it will return.

    I don't think it's that far off.  Amazon has jumped into gaming, building game engines and are heavily invested into AI.  Once they realize that AI and gaming are like peanut butter and chocolate you can expect to see the two technologies merge.  With a bit of a guiding hand from a small team of developers taking what the AI produces and tweaking it to fit the lore... etc, then you could have an MMORPG cranked out in 1-2 years.
    DarkestOverlord
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,842
    The audience changed and the games changed to fit.  They won't change back until the audience does.
    DMKanoViper482MrMelGibsonDarkestOverlordTindale111
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    H0urg1ass said:
    The MMORPG as we know it will come back one day.
    ...why would they?
    Viper482MrMelGibsonDarkestOverlordalkarionlog
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,826
    The path that the mmorpg genre has taken was obvious to happen the way it did.
    Large,expensive,time consuming and a length of commitment in multiple years even more than the development time requires, is a tough sell for any development house and or publisher. 
    It is not a good ROI.
     The return on investment is much much lower than a single player or even smaller scale multiplayer game. 
    It is also the hardest game genre to design for. The project constantly shifts,evolves and changes. Nothing is finished. Even older content needs refreshed and the backend work must be reworked as technology and operating systems change. 
    There are real reasons both technological and financial as to why it was obvious mmorpgs would fall. 
    There are some promise to the old designs but they are just reimagined old games. 
    There is a small market for those types of games but real change in the mmorpg genre will include projects that look and feel nothing like those of the past. 

    Cost and Time are the real killers of the genre.   
    GdemamiMendelMrMelGibsonRexKushmanDarkestOverlord

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,229
    edited May 12
    Miracles are a label hopeful put on coincidences. 

    There is no miracle mmorpg that will descend on us in the future, waiting on this to happen is a waste of time. 

    Instead it's much better to find something in here and now and enjoy playing that instead of waiting for something that will probably never happen.

    So no we don't need a "miracle", we need people to accept the here and now and make the best of that.

    Lots of great single player games on the market
    MendelViper482jonp200Cryomatrix
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,823
    DMKano said:
    Miracles are a label hopeful put on coincidences. 

    There is no miracle mmorpg that will descend on us in the future, waiting on this to happen is a waste of time. 

    Instead it's much better to find something in here and now and enjoy playing that instead of waiting for something that will probably never happen.

    So no we don't need a "miracle", we need people to accept the here and now and make the best of that.

    Lots of great single player games on the market
    Both you and I know you've been here for a long time and know every mmorpg available and have played everyone your interested in. 

    With that, why would you be here still if not waiting for something to happen ?.... And what your looking for would be a "miracle" too.
    Viper482GdemamiDarkestOverlord
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,716
    edited May 12
    DMKano said:
    Miracles are a label hopeful put on coincidences. 

    There is no miracle mmorpg that will descend on us in the future, waiting on this to happen is a waste of time. 

    Instead it's much better to find something in here and now and enjoy playing that instead of waiting for something that will probably never happen.

    So no we don't need a "miracle", we need people to accept the here and now and make the best of that.

    Lots of great single player games on the market

    Still talking down to the forums with this Internet Psych-babble trash. We discuss the state of the genre here, get over yourself and let the discussion happen. If you are content with the MMO trash we get today then be content to yourself and let the rest of us talk it out.
    blamo2000GdemamiDarkestOverlord
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,716
    The only hope for this genre imo is indie. AAA is going to go for the money, as they should because it is a business. Short attention spans fund the genre right now, not the old school gamers that could inhabit a living world for years back in the day. As long as that is the main customer base that is where the money will be going.
    blamo2000Gdemamijonp200DarkestOverlord
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,465
    My opinion is that the only hope is Survival games because they at least understand what a ROLE PLAY character should be doing>>eating,drinking,build a place to live/survive.

    Survival games at least most do not have immersion ruining markers over npc heads,the world looks and acts like one should and the players move about as one would expect without restriction walls that say do this or you can't enter that zone.

    RPG's are closer to games on rails than anything RPG like or open world as they SHOULD be.

    Somewhere along the way the definition of what role playing is has been twisted to themepark gaming.

    So then what,start making AAA survival games,pfft no real rpg gamer's to support it,the majority want their hand held,want to be told where to go and what to do.just look at threads talking about tutorials,why on earth would there be a tutorial in a world?Do you go on vacation somewhere and soon you arrive there is a tutorial waiting for you..lmao.of course not,the idea is beyond silly.

    Point being,we have a lot of devs that can't make sense with their design ideas,so the mmorpg genre has a very long way to go to become real good AAA games.IMO mostt devs are better suitd to making simple moba's,shooters,you know not a lot of thought or intelligence needed,just make a world and pvp each other.
    jonp200DarkestOverlord

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,976
    Yeah , we need a miracle , like i myself hit jackpot few hundreds millions USD .

    Or how about create miracle right here ? a browser MMORPG in MMORPG.com web .
    DarkestOverlord
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 933
    The big issue with trying to discuss this on a site that used to be devoted to mmorpgs is the people that liked mmorpgs left the community when mmorpgs stopped being mmorpgs and there was nothing to play.  So now, the big fish are people who like all genres of mmos besides mmorpgs, and are happy with how things have been going and look to keep going.

    I got attacked and called an elitist because I got angry of non-mmorpg fans telling me I don't like what I like and I'm not smart enough to realize I actually won't have fun playing a game I like because they don't like it.  The game being WoW classic.  Its insane.  And they say it so smarmy and elitist-y its fucking ridiculous.

    They operate on a ton of false assumptions.  Like they think there is no market for mmorpgs because of various nonsensical reasons, including the people that liked mmorpgs have grown up and had kids and are too busy.  I had a wife and family and a full time job when WoW came out, as did many others.  We didn't leave wow because we were too busy.  We left WoW because it stopped being made for us and started to be made for a younger audience and audience that wanted it to be streamlined and dumbed down and have all complexity stripped from it and alienated us by doing so.  


    Gdemami
  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Member RarePosts: 1,615
    There has been to many flops in the MMO industry the last 10+ years. I cant imagine any AAA company going down that path again, they are all switching to mobile and battle royal stuff since thats the hype right now.

    until somebody comes out with something that is truly different so players cant just mash through content in a month and " beat the game " i dont see some miracle game to save the MMO genre anytime soon.
  • BobVaBobVa Member UncommonPosts: 125
    Indeed, we need a ..miracle, like the one which happened in Ready Player One. We need a Anorak/Halliday guy, to invent something awesome. 

    My bet is on No Man's Sky. Is slowly becoming a real MMO. 
    DarkestOverlordCryomatrix
  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 450
    I hear you.  Sadly, I believe our hobby has changed for good.  Not to say, we won't find someone releasing a MMORPG that we enjoy but likely it won't be a AAA title.  Look at the massive dollars being spent on arena PvP games and mobile games. Publishers have a clear direction to go if they wan't to reap financial rewards from their work and we are letting them do this.

    Years ago I saw the writing on the wall with PC gaming going more mainstream.  To that point, most players were techheads.  We built our own PCs and pushed the technology as far as we could.  Enter the mass market. Walmart's top selling game the first year PCs were for sale there was 'Deer Hunter" which as a game was awful but appealed to all of the folks buying cheap mass market PCs.

    I was working in the industry then selling hardware to retail buyers for sale in their stores.  Once they became a bit more seasoned, it became all about the price point. Instead of "Hey here's the latest technology."  It became, "What can you provide for $699."  

    I think MMOs initially became successful because they didn't require bleeding edge technology to run.  This is probably one of the smartest things Blizzard did with the introduction of WOW.  It ran on all sorts of machines and one didn't need to have the latest and greatest to have a good experience.  

    The character of gamers changed as well.  When I was younger, it was nothing to pull an all-nighter and camp some spawn with a friend for hours.  Today, I'm in a more senior level position at work and just don't have the time to devote to this; enter the casual gamer.

    Personally, my playing has evolved to more single-player games as game creators seem to be trying to cater to everyone at once and doing a relatively poor job at it.  It has PvP, PvE, open PvP, limited PvP, PVE servers, PvP servers,story, no story, instanced, not instanced, rogue-like, sandbox, theme park, class based, no class based, traditional role-based, no roles, single-player content, team based content, survival elements, no fast travel, compete fast travel, systems for dungeon queuing, permadeath, no team systems, auction houses, no auction houses, etc.  All are looking for that tag that brings in the masses.  

    Some of these elements were great in the day but I wouldn't find them to be features I want today; e.g. corpse runs, camping spawns; I lack the time.

    Many MMOs feel like a large game with a lot of solo players playing alongside each other instead of with each other.  Many worlds feel empty lacking community or even NPCs.  The worlds look pretty but there is nothing going on in them.  I still chuckle at some of the eastern MMOs where I can click and have my character run to the next quest objective while I sip on my coffee.

    Something will need to break that the majority of us find appealing; that we reward by playing it.  Other developers will then follow.  Until then if we support loot boxes, PTW mechanics, cash shops and the like; we'll keep getting that.  I agree the development cycle is way too long for MMOs and we are not very unforgiving if we don't feel there is enough content; end-game or otherwise making it relatively hard to meet our expectations.

    At this point, I've spent my last pre-order dollar.  I'm very reluctant to crowd-fund anything (Which is disappointing as likely that's where our next gem will come from)  I will not support anything with PTW mechanics or paywalls leaving me with not a lot to play.

    I'm in a couple of Alphas now and am frankly not encouraged so I agree, the future of MMOs looks dire.  I do hope some of the soon-to-be released titles hit it out of the park but I'm not holding my breath.

    One thing that would help is a return to true closed betas so play-testers can give feedback to the developer pre-release.  There are still a few approaching development this way so that's a little encouraging.  The paradigm of releasing a piece of junk with the, "We hear you and are patching the game...blah..blah" needs to end.  Look at Fallout 76 or Anthem at release; no way the developer didn't know they were junk out of the box but they were fine releasing those games to us. No way, we should support that behavior.  My response, "Fine.  next time I'll buy it on sale if you fix it."  Your reward Mr. Publisher? Decreased revenues and hit to your reputation.

    Sorry to be a wet blanket but I feel pretty abused by the game industry at this point.  I'm responding with my wallet or rather not responding bu limiting my purchases to games that offer value.  I follow reviews, play-troughs, and opinions first and while I ultimately make up my own mind, the game has to be vetted in some way before, I'll buy it.
    MendelDarkestOverlordGdemami

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,240
    edited May 12
    Gdemami said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    The MMORPG as we know it will come back one day.
    ...why would they?
    I understand why you would ask this in the current gaming climate.  It's not the right type of game at this time to spend developer dollars on, and I don't think we'll see another one proposed for at least five years.

    But after half a decade or maybe a whole ten years, they will come back because people really do want to have huge worlds to explore, build and quest in.  You can take it to the bank that the  MMORPG genre will return when the technology is right and it doesn't take a five year cycle to develop one.

    edit:  A word
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,823
    jonp200 said:
    I hear you.  Sadly, I believe our hobby has changed for good.  Not to say, we won't find someone releasing a MMORPG that we enjoy but likely it won't be a AAA title.  Look at the massive dollars being spent on arena PvP games and mobile games. Publishers have a clear direction to go if they wan't to reap financial rewards from their work and we are letting them do this.

    Years ago I saw the writing on the wall with PC gaming going more mainstream.  To that point, most players were techheads.  We built our own PCs and pushed the technology as far as we could.  Enter the mass market. Walmart's top selling game the first year PCs were for sale there was 'Deer Hunter" which as a game was awful but appealed to all of the folks buying cheap mass market PCs.

    I was working in the industry then selling hardware to retail buyers for sale in their stores.  Once they became a bit more seasoned, it became all about the price point. Instead of "Hey here's the latest technology."  It became, "What can you provide for $699."  

    I think MMOs initially became successful because they didn't require bleeding edge technology to run.  This is probably one of the smartest things Blizzard did with the introduction of WOW.  It ran on all sorts of machines and one didn't need to have the latest and greatest to have a good experience.  

    The character of gamers changed as well.  When I was younger, it was nothing to pull an all-nighter and camp some spawn with a friend for hours.  Today, I'm in a more senior level position at work and just don't have the time to devote to this; enter the casual gamer.

    Personally, my playing has evolved to more single-player games as game creators seem to be trying to cater to everyone at once and doing a relatively poor job at it.  It has PvP, PvE, open PvP, limited PvP, PVE servers, PvP servers,story, no story, instanced, not instanced, rogue-like, sandbox, theme park, class based, no class based, traditional role-based, no roles, single-player content, team based content, survival elements, no fast travel, compete fast travel, systems for dungeon queuing, permadeath, no team systems, auction houses, no auction houses, etc.  All are looking for that tag that brings in the masses.  

    Some of these elements were great in the day but I wouldn't find them to be features I want today; e.g. corpse runs, camping spawns; I lack the time.

    Many MMOs feel like a large game with a lot of solo players playing alongside each other instead of with each other.  Many worlds feel empty lacking community or even NPCs.  The worlds look pretty but there is nothing going on in them.  I still chuckle at some of the eastern MMOs where I can click and have my character run to the next quest objective while I sip on my coffee.

    Something will need to break that the majority of us find appealing; that we reward by playing it.  Other developers will then follow.  Until then if we support loot boxes, PTW mechanics, cash shops and the like; we'll keep getting that.  I agree the development cycle is way too long for MMOs and we are not very unforgiving if we don't feel there is enough content; end-game or otherwise making it relatively hard to meet our expectations.

    At this point, I've spent my last pre-order dollar.  I'm very reluctant to crowd-fund anything (Which is disappointing as likely that's where our next gem will come from)  I will not support anything with PTW mechanics or paywalls leaving me with not a lot to play.

    I'm in a couple of Alphas now and am frankly not encouraged so I agree, the future of MMOs looks dire.  I do hope some of the soon-to-be released titles hit it out of the park but I'm not holding my breath.

    One thing that would help is a return to true closed betas so play-testers can give feedback to the developer pre-release.  There are still a few approaching development this way so that's a little encouraging.  The paradigm of releasing a piece of junk with the, "We hear you and are patching the game...blah..blah" needs to end.  Look at Fallout 76 or Anthem at release; no way the developer didn't know they were junk out of the box but they were fine releasing those games to us. No way, we should support that behavior.  My response, "Fine.  next time I'll buy it on sale if you fix it."  Your reward Mr. Publisher? Decreased revenues and hit to your reputation.

    Sorry to be a wet blanket but I feel pretty abused by the game industry at this point.  I'm responding with my wallet or rather not responding bu limiting my purchases to games that offer value.  I follow reviews, play-troughs, and opinions first and while I ultimately make up my own mind, the game has to be vetted in some way before, I'll buy it.
    Good rant !!!!!
    Really, I love it :)
    jonp200DarkestOverlord
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,823
    blamo2000 said:
    The big issue with trying to discuss this on a site that used to be devoted to mmorpgs is the people that liked mmorpgs left the community when mmorpgs stopped being mmorpgs and there was nothing to play.  So now, the big fish are people who like all genres of mmos besides mmorpgs, and are happy with how things have been going and look to keep going.

    I got attacked and called an elitist because I got angry of non-mmorpg fans telling me I don't like what I like and I'm not smart enough to realize I actually won't have fun playing a game I like because they don't like it.  The game being WoW classic.  Its insane.  And they say it so smarmy and elitist-y its fucking ridiculous.

    They operate on a ton of false assumptions.  Like they think there is no market for mmorpgs because of various nonsensical reasons, including the people that liked mmorpgs have grown up and had kids and are too busy.  I had a wife and family and a full time job when WoW came out, as did many others.  We didn't leave wow because we were too busy.  We left WoW because it stopped being made for us and started to be made for a younger audience and audience that wanted it to be streamlined and dumbed down and have all complexity stripped from it and alienated us by doing so.  


    Best post EVER of what's going on here !
    blamo2000DarkestOverlord
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,023
    The overall playerbase has changed as well. It's mostly generational difference. Back when I first started playing MMOs it was mostly a lot of Gen Xs and older Millennials playing. We interacted differently with each other than most folks do in games these days. We also expected different thing from games that have gone missing today. A lot of the folks I gamed with in the early days have moved on from MMOs for good, or focus on older MMO games or sit here and wish for the older days.


  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,186
    Miracles are what people hope for when they are not willing to do the work.

    If people wanted a game made, they could band together and achieve that goal. However, they want someone else to do it for them, so they wait for a miracle (goal achieved without any effort).

    I know that people are not going to to like this comparison, but Star Citizen is a good example of people raising money to make a game that they want. Sadly this seems to be a game that (only?) Chris Roberts wants to make.... but hey, it shows that SOMEONE was able to pull people together to achieve their dream without having to rely on miracles.
    blamo2000MendelOctagon7711Gdemami
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,844
    I must admit I find these types of threads difficult to understand.  I've played SWG and WoW when in beta and when they launched and a few more of the popular original MMO's.  They were good in some ways but also bad in some ways just like today's MMO's.  WoW and SWG forums had all kinds of drama going on in them and complaints about game play, balance issues, gold sellers, bots, grouping, pvp, pve,  and other players just like today.  I really don't think all that much has changed.  

    People complained about games back then pretty much like they complain about them now.  The issues they complained about back then other players didn't have a problem with and even liked just like today.

    SWG's forums were archived the last time I checked and would be pretty easy to talk about the complaints from back then about the game pre and post cu.

    I can understand complaining about things in a game that aren't compatible with your playstyle but implying mmo's were in a golden age back then is something different.

    MendelHawkaya399

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,229
    edited May 12
    There's no turning back time - as others have pointed out even if there is a miracle mmorpg the playerbase today would chew it up and spit it out in a matter of weeks.

    The awesomeness that happened back in 1998-2003 with gen1 MMORPGS is something that will never happen again with a new mmorpg.

    This might be hard to accept but no way will you ever get a playerbase like that.

    So unless you can time travel back to 1998/9 - there is no way to get that magic back again.

    MendelViper482GdemamiMikeha
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,023
    I must admit I find these types of threads difficult to understand.  I've played SWG and WoW when in beta and when they launched and a few more of the popular original MMO's.  They were good in some ways but also bad in some ways just like today's MMO's.  WoW and SWG forums had all kinds of drama going on in them and complaints about game play, balance issues, gold sellers, bots, grouping, pvp, pve,  and other players just like today.  I really don't think all that much has changed.  

    People complained about games back then pretty much like they complain about them now.  The issues they complained about back then other players didn't have a problem with and even liked just like today.

    SWG's forums were archived the last time I checked and would be pretty easy to talk about the complaints from back then about the game pre and post cu.

    I can understand complaining about things in a game that aren't compatible with your playstyle but implying mmo's were in a golden age back then is something different.

    In game people were a bit more social because less used voice servers and of course more helpful because some actually cared about their ingame reputation, and finally trolls were actually dealt with by CS instead of ignored. Not so much these days.


  • nyxiumnyxium Member UncommonPosts: 1,302
    Emulation is getting more popular despite the IP armchair lawyers acting "better than you" while at the same time wasting their time because emulated servers are happening anyway. Personally I'm happy with Albion Online but it is an observation what is going on elsewhere. I think that has a future in an abandonware "law of finds" kind of way. NCSoft should sell royalty licenses to the CoH servers for donation percentages so everyone is happy but I doubt that will happen.
Sign In or Register to comment.