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Would you have backed CU if you knew it would take this long?

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  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited February 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Renfail said:
    As someone who understands the ins and outs of game development, and how most MMORPGs take around 6-8 years on the low end. 

    Absolutely. 

    Especially with their refund policy in place. 

    Even without their refund policy in place I would have backed...if I gave a shit about PVP games =P 

    That's why I'm in a no-worries place with Star Citizen. I gave them 50 bucks on Kickstarter, I'm happy with their progress, love their updates, can play the game as a backer, get regular updates, and it's all coming together nicely. 
    Err, seems the oft touted refund policy is only true, until it isn't of course.

    There a good write up over on MassiveOP by an early backer who tried to get a refund starting in Aug 2019.

    After several email exchanges across many months with multiple attempts by CSE to dissuade the backer, including offering to downgrade his pledge tier, onerous documentation requirements, etc.

    It was finally denied in December after  being presented to MJ for approval, apparently he came up with a new rule,  IT level backers ($180) were not eligible for refunds, being they've had regular, dev like access to CU since day 1.

    If the refund requests start to really ramp up I wonder what other new rules will come into play?

    My guess will be the "you waited too long, you had plenty of opportunities before this latest announcement, you lose sir!"

    It's almost like finding out Santa Claus is actually evil or something.

    Don't kid yourself, they dont have the funds to cover a large "run on the bank." If anyone is thinking of doing so, better get in early.

     :D 
    So pledging enough to be an unpaid tester qualified for a no refund policy? Sorry we forgot to mention this when lamenting that we can't get testers. 

    Suggests the funding situation is worse than bad. And their confidence level in Colossus making lots of money - allowing them to finish CU - isn't that high.

    When I agreed with @Quizzical 's comment yesterday about a refund policy only being good until it isn't I added that I thought they would want to cover the pledges to avoid the negative fallout. Don't see this ending well.




    Gdemami
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited February 2020
    Kyleran said:
    ...were not eligible for refunds, being they've had regular, dev like access to CU since day 1.
    I remember Frontier doing similar when they eventually announced offline mode would not be a thing for Elite. I could kind of understand it because despite playing hundreds of hours online people were now claiming all they wanted was offline play. Frontier did back down though.
    Kyleran said:
    My guess will be the "you waited too long, you had plenty of opportunities before this latest announcement, you lose sir!"
    This is the exact position some Star Citizen shills take due to CIG not honouring refunds anymore.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,381
    Kyleran said:
    ...were not eligible for refunds, being they've had regular, dev like access to CU since day 1.
    I remember Frontier doing similar when they eventually announced offline mode would not be a thing for Elite. I could kind of understand it because despite playing hundreds of hours online people were now claiming all they wanted was offline play. Frontier did back down though.
    Kyleran said:
    My guess will be the "you waited too long, you had plenty of opportunities before this latest announcement, you lose sir!"
    This is the exact position some Star Citizen shills take due to CIG not honouring refunds anymore.
    It works for Star Citizen.
    Garrus Signature
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 299
    edited February 2020
    Another example of why NOONE should EVER back a crowd funded game. If a company does not have a definitive route to follow, its a bad venture to start with. If you cannot obtain investors on your own, its either a poor plan or investors don't feel like the return is there. So if people who make a living funding businesses don't want to invest...why would you feel the need to throw your money away??? Make these people show us a product, ONLY AFTER, it has completed.
    Mendel
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,946
    edited February 2020
    bentrim said:
    Another example of why NOONE should EVER back a crowd funded game. If a company does not have a definitive route to follow, its a bad venture to start with. If you cannot obtain investors on your own, its either a poor plan or investors don't feel like the return is there. So if people who make a living funding businesses don't want to invest...why would you feel the need to throw your money away??? Make these people show us a product, ONLY AFTER, it has completed.
    Hindsight is always 20 / 20, wasn't so clear back in 2013 when I backed CU.

    1) Mark had just come off WAR and apologized profusely for his role in its poor release and reception.

    2) saying he knew better now he was going to deliver CU, not a full featured MMORPG mind you, but a smaller subset, basically an improved but separate version of DAOCs RVR gameplay.

    3) as he already had a "working" prototype of the new, amazing engine it would only take maybe two or so years to deliver, piece o cake for such a well seasoned "veteran " of the gaming space.

    It was a reasonable argument at the time so I  bought in, but it was my one and only time, I've well learned my lesson.

    ;)




    Gdemamigervaise1meddyckAxxarVynt

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 104
    I wasn’t convinced on 2 years, but I certainly was not expecting 7! Maybe 4 if they grossly underestimated the scope.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited February 2020
    Axxar said:
    Maybe 4 if they grossly underestimated the scope.
    ...and what is your expectation basen upon?
    MightyUnclean
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,946
    edited February 2020
    Gdemami said:
    Axxar said:
    Maybe 4 if they grossly underestimated the scope.
    ...and what is your expectation basen upon?
    The expert developer Mark Jacob's promising to deliver in two years or less for "reasons?"

    Four years is a decent allowance to account for developer over optimism and hubris, or so we all thought.

    Apparently even tripling the value isn't enough, looking like five fold might do the trick. 

     :D 


    GdemamimeddyckMightyUncleanAxxar[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Darkvane2019Darkvane2019 Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    AlmostLancelot said:they get paid by the word, when you see them having diarrhea of the hand, it's because they are being descriptive to milk the money. Writing stories was my passion in college, then someone stole my manuscript for the book I was writing, plagiarized it and published my intellectual property as their own and the only evidence I had was the manuscript they stole. That screwed me out of my career and robbed me of my passion.
    Luiden said:
    I don't think so, it feels like the Wheel of Time to be honest.. or specifically what happened to Robert Jordan.  Everybody kept praising Robert for his incredible level of detail and his later books were 1000 page plus novels that didn't move the story along at all because he was obsessed with detail.   

    It feels like CU is obsessed with large scale wars and getting as many people into 1 spot as possible... but let's be honest here, massive large scale war isn't exactly all that exciting.  It's fun to do a few times but the real enjoyment comes from small scale combat, taking objectives in a timely order.. not fighting for 12 hours straight only to knock down 1 wall. 

    It just feels like all their effort and testing goes into 1 aspect of the game.. if that is the only thing this game does at release I'm going to be really pissed.     
    It was the same problem that plagued Stephen King as well.

    The guy is a brilliant author, but can spend fifteen pages describing a forest. After a while it just starts to get old.

  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 104
    Gdemami said:
    Axxar said:
    Maybe 4 if they grossly underestimated the scope.
    ...and what is your expectation basen upon?
    Big MMOs like WoW took 5 years to develop. So while I could see them developing the game faster than a content heavy MMO, I was not convinced of the 2-year claim.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,565
    Tierless said:
    Would anyone back any MMO if the devs didnt lie about how much time and money they would take?
    Me?
    On the flip side I won’t back any that say they can do it in miracle time with minuscule money.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,306
    You're paying to help develop a game, not buying the game early. Like any "investment", it's a gamble.
    BabuinixGdemami
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    This is a silly quiestion. MMORPGs take time to develop.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,565
    This is a silly quiestion. MMORPGs take time to develop.
    I don’t think you understood the question. 
    KyleranmeddyckGdemamiYashaX

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,687
    You're paying to help develop a game, not buying the game early. Like any "investment", it's a gamble.
    It's worse and stupider than an investment though.  An investment would help get you a game AND get you a share of the stock dividends AND give you some controlling stake if your investment is big enough.

    With this, you just get the game.  At best.  And maybe some dinky in-game perks (of which if you get TOO much from that, IE pay-to-win, it'll threaten the health of the game in the first place)

    But well, a fool is born every minute.  Hence how these crowd funding ventures get so much money in the first place (yet still no where near enough money to actually make an MMORPG, which are way more expensive on average to make than most games)
    MendelultimateduckGdemami
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    You're paying to help develop a game, not buying the game early. Like any "investment", it's a gamble.
    It's worse and stupider than an investment though.  An investment would help get you a game AND get you a share of the stock dividends AND give you some controlling stake if your investment is big enough.

    With this, you just get the game.  At best.  And maybe some dinky in-game perks (of which if you get TOO much from that, IE pay-to-win, it'll threaten the health of the game in the first place)

    But well, a fool is born every minute.  Hence how these crowd funding ventures get so much money in the first place (yet still no where near enough money to actually make an MMORPG, which are way more expensive on average to make than most games)

    One thing I really hate from crowdfunding is the notion that somehow the money someone gives is somehow an "investment".  An investment is a form of ownership, not a gift or donation.  Investments are a two-way commitment between parties, with laws protecting both parties.  If you're feeling generous, give $10 to the guy at the highway exit ramp.  Just don't pretend you have any control over what they do next.  It will probably cost you less in the long run, too.



    gervaise1AxxarGdemamiYashaX

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 Member UncommonPosts: 336
    Yes.. Although I wouldn't have donated as much. I'd have just stuck with a basic package. 



    I always viewed my "investment" as a long-term pre-order. It's just been VERY long-term. 
    Axxar
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,306
    Mendel said:
    You're paying to help develop a game, not buying the game early. Like any "investment", it's a gamble.
    It's worse and stupider than an investment though.  An investment would help get you a game AND get you a share of the stock dividends AND give you some controlling stake if your investment is big enough.

    With this, you just get the game.  At best.  And maybe some dinky in-game perks (of which if you get TOO much from that, IE pay-to-win, it'll threaten the health of the game in the first place)

    But well, a fool is born every minute.  Hence how these crowd funding ventures get so much money in the first place (yet still no where near enough money to actually make an MMORPG, which are way more expensive on average to make than most games)

    One thing I really hate from crowdfunding is the notion that somehow the money someone gives is somehow an "investment".  An investment is a form of ownership, not a gift or donation.  Investments are a two-way commitment between parties, with laws protecting both parties.  If you're feeling generous, give $10 to the guy at the highway exit ramp.  Just don't pretend you have any control over what they do next.  It will probably cost you less in the long run, too.

    FFS, stop taking the word "investment" so strictly. I put quotation marks around it for a reason. There are many ways in which you can invest in something, it doesn't have to be financial. Someone can be emotionally invested, for example. People crowdfunding a game are investing in a hobby, they just need to be realistic in their expectations.
    AxxarGdemamiSovrath
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 546
    edited May 2020
    For a long time, I'd have said "sure". But at this point, with how long it's been, who knows how much longer, and in light of recent events at CSE? No. Definitely not.

    I used to really appreciate MJ's candor and forthrightness in the past. Lately, his commentary rings more of PR and damage control to my ears, than anything sincere.

    I've been able to log in and actually do anything at all once. Any other time I've tried to look into it, servers are open to CSE only.

    I recently decided to check out another Kickstarted MMO, which also starts with 'C', have been really impressed with what I'm seeing, and am having a lot of fun with it. Even at its current early stage. It's likely my time and attention will be given to that title.

    So, by the time CU comes out,  I probably won't even care anymore, if I even notice it's launched at all.
    Kyleran
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,433
    Crowdfunding is not a pre-order. You put money into an idea/project and you should be prepared for it to fail, take longer than anticipated or completely change along the way. That's how it works.

    You pay to help someone start a journey without a certain destination or ETA.
    You're helping on a goodwill  because YOU decided to. You're not entitled to nothing else after that. If you're not ok with that stay the F away from crowdfunding.
    GdemamiSovrathKumapon
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,946
    Babuinix said:
    Crowdfunding is not a pre-order. You put money into an idea/project and you should be prepared for it to fail, take longer than anticipated or completely change along the way. That's how it works.

    You pay to help someone start a journey without a certain destination or ETA.
    You're helping on a goodwill  because YOU decided to. You're not entitled to nothing else after that. If you're not ok with that stay the F away from crowdfunding.
    WTF? A post of yours which I agree with everything you said?

    It's the end of the world as we know it...


    Gdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,433
    edited May 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Babuinix said:
    Crowdfunding is not a pre-order. You put money into an idea/project and you should be prepared for it to fail, take longer than anticipated or completely change along the way. That's how it works.

    You pay to help someone start a journey without a certain destination or ETA.
    You're helping on a goodwill  because YOU decided to. You're not entitled to nothing else after that. If you're not ok with that stay the F away from crowdfunding.
    WTF? A post of yours which I agree with everything you said?
    It's the end of the world as we know it...

    I've been saying this same thing for years in the Star Citizen thread, somehow people still like to blame others instead of owning their mistakes or expectations.
    Post edited by Babuinix on
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,946
    edited May 2020
    Babuinix said:
    Kyleran said:
    Babuinix said:
    Crowdfunding is not a pre-order. You put money into an idea/project and you should be prepared for it to fail, take longer than anticipated or completely change along the way. That's how it works.

    You pay to help someone start a journey without a certain destination or ETA.
    You're helping on a goodwill  because YOU decided to. You're not entitled to nothing else after that. If you're not ok with that stay the F away from crowdfunding.
    WTF? A post of yours which I agree with everything you said?
    It's the end of the world as we know it...

    I've been saying this same thing for years in the Star Citizen thread, somehow people still like to blame others instead of owning their mistakes or expectations.
    My only point of order is long ago and far away these indie dev leads all made promises they couldn't keep and they should well have known so, wasn't their first rodeo.

    I can't blame any of the backers who believed in them as they just seemed so sincere at the time...but now we know better, right?

    We are all still waiting for the Great Pumpkin to arrive......maybe next year.



    Gdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Update.

    I backed Crowfall, and I kinda lost track of what they are doing these days. Figure when they are done, they will be done.

    Right now, I have other games to play.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,946
    Ungood said:
    Update.

    I backed Crowfall, and I kinda lost track of what they are doing these days. Figure when they are done, they will be done.

    Right now, I have other games to play.
    18 more months, always just another 18 more months....
    meddyck

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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