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Would you have backed CU if you knew it would take this long?

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  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    edited June 19
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Sure.. if I back a game, it is not about when I will get it.. it is about what I will get.

    Edit: Added:

    I've only bought into 3 games so far, CU is one of them, but, truth be told, I never looked at their launch dates or anything else. I still have no idea when the game is due, and I don't care. I gave them my money with the faith that they would at the very least, do their best to make a game I would like to play. I played their Alpha, I was not impressed, If it takes a few years to make it right, then take the time and make it right, send me an e-mail and tell me when it's done.

    I'll be off screwing around with some other game in the meantime.
    I'm a bit "different," I expect developers to be relatively honest and keep their promises. (Just what PMs do, go figure)

    I and others had debates with MJ, JW and TC when their Kickstarters all had two year dates to delivery.

    We said it couldn't be done in such a short time frame, and I particularly said not for such small amounts of money.

    As all three are running 3, 4 and 5 years long with no end in sight, and have had to raise far more money; apparently I'm a prophet, (harbinger?) or something. :D

    Or...I just didn't lie to myself, which apparently they did, all promising to use "revolutionary" new tools and techniques to speed up / reduce the cost of delivery.

    Yeah...I said back then you need at least $20M to create any sort of MMORPG, and turns out I was wrong, looks like at least $30M plus is more in the ballpark....if any actually release of course.

    Every day which passes increases their dev costs, (never mind the marketing) the burn rate is real.
    I get where you are coming from, but, also get where I am coming from.

    My life won't get better or worse one way or the other. KS makes it clear that this is a gamble and a buyer beware type thing. You get zip in the way of any real guarantee that they will even complete the project, only that they will use all the KS funds to attempt to complete the project.

    Much in the same way I backed someone making bread on kickstarter, they solde home baked hand rolled bread at their local farmers market, and were looking to raise some funds to expand their operation, I believe their goal was like $3,500 for the whole thing, anyway, I thought it was kinda cool, and I was promised something like a special loaf of the week for 2 years if I gave them as little as 50 dollars. Well I am a sucker for fresh baked bread, so I backed it, and gave them 75, and write in that I do not ever want raisins in my bread. Well, they took the money and built their dream, sadly, with the expansion they suddenly needed to meet all kinds of new regulations because now it was a commercial operation, they quickly got burned in state and local red tape, and the whole thing went to shit. I felt bad for them, I really did, I also felt bad I was not going to my bread. But life goes on.

    Well, the take away was, that I would have gained nothing to kick them as they were going down, point fingers, or what have you, and the other thing is that just because someone has a dollar and a dream does not mean they know what they are doing.

    When you choose to back a project on Kickstarter, that is a risk you take, they could screw it all up, and fail miserably, and if you didn't walk in with that mindframe, you were the one walking into the deal unprepared.. not them.

    If they told you it was going to be two years and you thought to yourself "No way in hell" then you should have walked away, if you didn't, and lo' and behold, you were right.. now you need to ask yourself which of the two of you were dumber, the one that thought they could do it in two years and failed, or the person that knew they were going to fail and yet STILL gave them their money?

    Just something to think about next time you are having a debate with them about this.
    Back in 2012 I still believed in magic, and that developers were more competent or forthright than they've proven to be.

    I know better now, CU is my one and only crowd funded project as I am a quick study. 

    Interesting side note, over on MassivelyOP MJ uncharacteristically got into pissing contests with several regulars and in one he revealed processing a bunch of refunds just today.

    Guess the natives are getting restless...also, not sure all info should be so freely shared.

    ;)




    To clarify (re: comment from Apollo Haner in this article: https://massivelyop.com/2019/06/17/camelot-unchained-hardens-up-to-squash-some-bugs-prepares-for-tentative-weekend-test/):

    MJ is saying Apollo is making stuff up, Apollo says MJ admitted to bailing on teammates on a past project.

    That last part of the exchange took place at least 24 hours ago - and Apollo hasn't responded to MJ saying Apollo is flat out making shit up (the appropriate response for Apollo if he's not lying would be to in any way prove that MJ said or implied or revealed, even accidentally, that he bailed on former teammates for WAR/DAoC).

    Apollo Haner's CU comments are 100% shitting on the game/devs, not left a single neutral or positive comment on any thread on CU on MOP.

    Don't think it takes a seer to figure out what he's about.

    Edit: Deekay, in that same comments section, has a better criticism below Apollo's, re: the NDA, that actually does hold water. In a nutshell, it's saying that it's unfair for MJ (head of CSE) to post defending CU and telling critics they're wrong, but not allow anyone with access to the game to report on its actual progress due to the NDA. I don't agree with it, but at least it's an argument that makes sense and isn't  making stuff up.
  • RumblerBRumblerB Member UncommonPosts: 6
    Kyleran said:

    Interesting side note, over on MassivelyOP MJ uncharacteristically got into pissing contests with several regulars and in one he revealed processing a bunch of refunds just today.

    Guess the natives are getting restless...also, not sure all info should be so freely shared.

    ;)
    MJ has always been pretty open about the fact that they receive a steady stream of refunds. They even subtract the refunds from their crowdfunding tracker. It was over $5 million at one point and is now at $4.7 million.

    https://i.imgur.com/SmeABo7.png

    He also discourages people from backing the game and encourages refunds on weekly streams and puts a huge discouraging disclaimer in the store when you try to pledge. I think that's a pretty refreshing attitude for a crowdfunding studio, especially when so many other crowdfunded MMO studios devote so much of their resources towards marketing their unfinished game and milking existing backers at every turn.


    As for the original question, yes I would probably throw a low level pledge their way and then put the game out of my mind for 6 years. That's pretty much what happened when I initially pledged. I quickly lost interest in the project after reading a few weekly newsletters that just talked about setting up very basic engine stuff.

    I came back to the project about a year ago and have been following the progress with renewed interest and playing in the tests when I can. I have been seeing progress in the right direction, especially in the last few months. After a long stretch of network and performance/graphics optimizations they shifted development priorities to improving/polishing general gameplay, starting about 2 months ago. We saw some of the early fruits from this efforts in the recent RvR tests this week. There's still plenty of jank, especially with the UI, but when you know how to work around it there's actually pretty fun gameplay now with the ability builder, new health/armor system, and functional mages.

    MJ has also loosened up the NDA, giving us permission to talk openly about the tests, but still no screenshots or videos. He also confirmed that the Depths will NOT be in at launch, which makes me think this thing could be coming out sooner than people realize. Only time will tell.
    Kylerantweedledumb99
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,303
    Well, since Camelot isnt my kind of game, of course I wouldnt back it or even buy the final version.

    But Pantheon faces the same problem now. So far it seems/is rumored thats because they want to make their alpha an actual beta, because they fear for bad press otherwise. I dont know if thats really true or just an excuse because they are still behind schedule.

    Either way I havent backed Pantheon either and I'm quite weary of such offers. From my point of view, in the kickstarter model, the temptation to milk your backers is just far too strong, and far too many cases have occured in which backers got nothing, or got a complete joke of a product.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,315
    edited June 21
    RumblerB said:
    He also confirmed that the Depths will NOT be in at launch, which makes me think this thing could be coming out sooner than people realize. Only time will tell.
    Interestingly in the MassivelyOP thread mentioned above Mark confirmed he is still targeting a release date in 2019 at this point.

    He also said the moment it's no longer the case he will inform the backers immediately after the investors are notified.

    A fair answer and still one of the best indie efforts considering the refund policy which I think no other studio has equaled. 

    I was thinking of refunding, but what the heck, he can keep it, I still want to see what comes out of all this.

    But back to the OP, I won't back indie MMORPGs anymore due to their track records to date, will wait until the game is finished then decide.


    tweedledumb99Torvaljimmywolf

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    edited June 21
    Was just in a test yesterday after not doing gameplay tests for a couple months, gameplay feel (for me; hopefully this is always implied??) went up a couple notches from unfun to 'this feels alright'.

    Graphics also looked easier on the eyes and animations were tighter (still some jittering but way less than before).

    Got me more excited about how the game is shaping up, still has a ways to go, though.
    gervaise1TorvalKyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,134
    edited June 21
    Was just in a test yesterday after not doing gameplay tests for a couple months, gameplay feel (for me; hopefully this is always implied??) went up a couple notches from unfun to 'this feels alright'.

    Graphics also looked easier on the eyes and animations were tighter (still some jittering but way less than before).

    Got me more excited about how the game is shaping up, still has a ways to go, though.
    I’ll have to check it out soon.  The animations always seemed off to me.
    tweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,303
    For me, backing things like this, along with Kickstarter, should be gotten into with the full knowledge that there will be delays and frustrations.  Anyone who contributes to software, not just games, is deluding themselves that the timeline is gonna be met.
    tweedledumb99

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    Was just in a test yesterday after not doing gameplay tests for a couple months, gameplay feel (for me; hopefully this is always implied??) went up a couple notches from unfun to 'this feels alright'.

    Graphics also looked easier on the eyes and animations were tighter (still some jittering but way less than before).

    Got me more excited about how the game is shaping up, still has a ways to go, though.
    I’ll have to check it out soon.  The animations always seemed off to me.
    Theres still jank there, but theyve clearly removed some of it.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    RumblerB said:
    Kyleran said:

    <snip>
    MJ has always been pretty open about the fact that they receive a steady stream of refunds. They even subtract the refunds from their crowdfunding tracker. It was over $5 million at one point and is now at $4.7 million.

    https://i.imgur.com/SmeABo7.png

    Had the impression they had raised more - which is what comes from not following the development that closely plus a lack of any headline grabbing articles. 

    $4.7M though. A maximum of c. 135k backers @ the minimum $35 package to c. 12k if everyone went for one of the $400-4425 packages.

    Whilst we don't know the costs involved I would say that pretty much makes CU an investor led development with some pre-orders. So no surprise that announcements are being made to investors first.

    I wish it well but I suspect things are tougher than MJ wight have been hoping.
    Ppipertweedledumb99
  • nooffalnooffal Member UncommonPosts: 24
    edited July 4
    Kyleran said:
    RumblerB said:
    He also confirmed that the Depths will NOT be in at launch, which makes me think this thing could be coming out sooner than people realize. Only time will tell.
    Interestingly in the MassivelyOP thread mentioned above Mark confirmed he is still targeting a release date in 2019 at this point.

    He also said the moment it's no longer the case he will inform the backers immediately after the investors are notified.

    A fair answer and still one of the best indie efforts considering the refund policy which I think no other studio has equaled. 

    I was thinking of refunding, but what the heck, he can keep it, I still want to see what comes out of all this.

    But back to the OP, I won't back indie MMORPGs anymore due to their track records to date, will wait until the game is finished then decide.


    I have nothing but respect for what they're trying to achieve but let's hope the game does NOT come out in 2019. This game is still in alpha by any semi-modern definition of the word and has a long way to go for a polished game. 

    Many of the items they are working on are engine related and the focus of the testing has been very specific, time limited, segments of the game. There is no open world with continuity of gameplay with all of the components of the game yet. Once that is present, there is still A LOT of work to actually build out and polish the game.

    To date, the narrative has largely equated development progress of the game engine with development of the game. That's simply not the case - game developers who license an engine still have several years of work once they get their basic environments configured. The reason why there is still an NDA, still very limited testing, no open beta, very little game footage, etc., is because the majority of the work for the past 7 years has been building the engine. They are just now - last ~year or so - starting to try to wrap up the engine and actually begin the game development.

    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    Slapshot1188tweedledumb99meddyck
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,315
    Here's the thing, the gaming landscape is undergoing major paradigm shifts with VR, AR,  next gen consoles/PC hardware and soon all of the new streaming services.

    Will CU and other indies be able to keep pace and finally launch or will they need to go back and retool their games yet again to take best advantage of the new market.

    By the time CU launches, I may very well decide to put away the PC for good and migrate to playing games on consoles or streaming platforms and very likely I'll have a lot of company. 


    Torvaljimmywolfmeddyck

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,762
    nooffal said:


    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    The hesitancy, I suspect, is because it was really misleading to sell people an MMO-RVR game, telling them it would only take a couple of years, when he knew what building an engine entails. He mislead and lied. It was a really sneaky deception that got covered with the smoke and mirrors of "transparency" and open ended refunds.

    While you may have nothing but respect for him and that company I've pretty much lost all of it because of these "smoke and mirror" shenanigans. I'm not singling them out here either. They're in company alongside Ashes, Crowfall, CoE, Pantheon, and the rest.
    GdemamiKyleranRich84
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,134
    Torval said:
    nooffal said:


    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    The hesitancy, I suspect, is because it was really misleading to sell people an MMO-RVR game, telling them it would only take a couple of years, when he knew what building an engine entails. He mislead and lied. It was a really sneaky deception that got covered with the smoke and mirrors of "transparency" and open ended refunds.

    While you may have nothing but respect for him and that company I've pretty much lost all of it because of these "smoke and mirror" shenanigans. I'm not singling them out here either. They're in company alongside Ashes, Crowfall, CoE, Pantheon, and the rest.
    I know no more than you, but my suspicion has always been that they did not expect to raise all this money (CU).  I think he always planned to just build on his March to Oz or Smackhammer stuff and never really thought they would end up developing their own engine for 5-6 years.  

    Also, as always there is the refund he offers.  If those were not offered I'd put him right up on the stake next to the other games you mentioned.  I certainly won't get in the way of you or anyone else who wants to do so though.
    TorvalGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • nooffalnooffal Member UncommonPosts: 24
    Torval said:
    nooffal said:


    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    The hesitancy, I suspect, is because it was really misleading to sell people an MMO-RVR game, telling them it would only take a couple of years, when he knew what building an engine entails. He mislead and lied. It was a really sneaky deception that got covered with the smoke and mirrors of "transparency" and open ended refunds.

    While you may have nothing but respect for him and that company I've pretty much lost all of it because of these "smoke and mirror" shenanigans. I'm not singling them out here either. They're in company alongside Ashes, Crowfall, CoE, Pantheon, and the rest.
    The respect comment was mainly around the vision/concept they started off with and what they claimed they were trying to achieve. I agree with some of your sentiment about the smoke and mirrors... how much was intentional forethought or simply ignorant scrambling to react to miss after miss, I don't know... however, the result is the same in that you have relatively little progress after 7 years of development. After that amount of time, the detailed updates, the "reasons," the excuses, etc., simply don't matter that much. 

    At the end of the day, it is what it is and they have to move forward by either trying to salvage/complete the game or shutting things down. I would anticipate that shutting down CU also means shutting down CSE or at a minimum, large layoffs. I hope they are able to keep things going long enough to complete at least their MVP (minimum viable product) and have that, hopefully, be enough to have some success so they can add to it. 

    That is looking like harder and harder of a challenge right now, but I hope they're able to pull it off.


  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    nooffal said:
    Kyleran said:
    RumblerB said:
    He also confirmed that the Depths will NOT be in at launch, which makes me think this thing could be coming out sooner than people realize. Only time will tell.
    Interestingly in the MassivelyOP thread mentioned above Mark confirmed he is still targeting a release date in 2019 at this point.

    He also said the moment it's no longer the case he will inform the backers immediately after the investors are notified.

    A fair answer and still one of the best indie efforts considering the refund policy which I think no other studio has equaled. 

    I was thinking of refunding, but what the heck, he can keep it, I still want to see what comes out of all this.

    But back to the OP, I won't back indie MMORPGs anymore due to their track records to date, will wait until the game is finished then decide.


    I have nothing but respect for what they're trying to achieve but let's hope the game does NOT come out in 2019. This game is still in alpha by any semi-modern definition of the word and has a long way to go for a polished game. 

    Many of the items they are working on are engine related and the focus of the testing has been very specific, time limited, segments of the game. There is no open world with continuity of gameplay with all of the components of the game yet. Once that is present, there is still A LOT of work to actually build out and polish the game.

    To date, the narrative has largely equated development progress of the game engine with development of the game. That's simply not the case - game developers who license an engine still have several years of work once they get their basic environments configured. The reason why there is still an NDA, still very limited testing, no open beta, very little game footage, etc., is because the majority of the work for the past 7 years has been building the engine. They are just now - last ~year or so - starting to try to wrap up the engine and actually begin the game development.

    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    Agreed, but they did start real dev october 2013 (hiring, wrapping up old projects, training, buying equipment, etc.), which is 5.7 years not 7.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,315
    edited July 4
    nooffal said:
    Kyleran said:
    RumblerB said:
    He also confirmed that the Depths will NOT be in at launch, which makes me think this thing could be coming out sooner than people realize. Only time will tell.
    Interestingly in the MassivelyOP thread mentioned above Mark confirmed he is still targeting a release date in 2019 at this point.

    He also said the moment it's no longer the case he will inform the backers immediately after the investors are notified.

    A fair answer and still one of the best indie efforts considering the refund policy which I think no other studio has equaled. 

    I was thinking of refunding, but what the heck, he can keep it, I still want to see what comes out of all this.

    But back to the OP, I won't back indie MMORPGs anymore due to their track records to date, will wait until the game is finished then decide.


    I have nothing but respect for what they're trying to achieve but let's hope the game does NOT come out in 2019. This game is still in alpha by any semi-modern definition of the word and has a long way to go for a polished game. 

    Many of the items they are working on are engine related and the focus of the testing has been very specific, time limited, segments of the game. There is no open world with continuity of gameplay with all of the components of the game yet. Once that is present, there is still A LOT of work to actually build out and polish the game.

    To date, the narrative has largely equated development progress of the game engine with development of the game. That's simply not the case - game developers who license an engine still have several years of work once they get their basic environments configured. The reason why there is still an NDA, still very limited testing, no open beta, very little game footage, etc., is because the majority of the work for the past 7 years has been building the engine. They are just now - last ~year or so - starting to try to wrap up the engine and actually begin the game development.

    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    Agreed, but they did start real dev october 2013 (hiring, wrapping up old projects, training, buying equipment, etc.), which is 5.7 years not 7.
    Regardless, the meter started running the day the KSer funded, (they had access to other monies) so it's at 6 plus years and counting.

    If they wasted 5 months not getting started (also recall original delivery timeline was two years) then it would well explain why it's taking longer, poor project management. 

    ;)

    jimmywolfGdemamimeddyck

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    nooffal said:
    Torval said:
    nooffal said:


    I sense the hesitancy from MJ to be more forthcoming is that he is congnisent of the 7 years that has passed and where the game stands. Let's hope the investors remain patient and the company financialy above water so they are not forced to release the game before it is ready. One of the founding principles/concepts was not releasing an incomplete product... at this point, it's better to get it right than release soon and wash 7 years down the drain.

    The hesitancy, I suspect, is because it was really misleading to sell people an MMO-RVR game, telling them it would only take a couple of years, when he knew what building an engine entails. He mislead and lied. It was a really sneaky deception that got covered with the smoke and mirrors of "transparency" and open ended refunds.

    While you may have nothing but respect for him and that company I've pretty much lost all of it because of these "smoke and mirror" shenanigans. I'm not singling them out here either. They're in company alongside Ashes, Crowfall, CoE, Pantheon, and the rest.
    The respect comment was mainly around the vision/concept they started off with and what they claimed they were trying to achieve. I agree with some of your sentiment about the smoke and mirrors... how much was intentional forethought or simply ignorant scrambling to react to miss after miss, I don't know... however, the result is the same in that you have relatively little progress after 7 years of development. After that amount of time, the detailed updates, the "reasons," the excuses, etc., simply don't matter that much. 

    At the end of the day, it is what it is and they have to move forward by either trying to salvage/complete the game or shutting things down. I would anticipate that shutting down CU also means shutting down CSE or at a minimum, large layoffs. I hope they are able to keep things going long enough to complete at least their MVP (minimum viable product) and have that, hopefully, be enough to have some success so they can add to it. 

    That is looking like harder and harder of a challenge right now, but I hope they're able to pull it off.


    So, i asked other backers on the CU forums what features are confirmed for launch and which are post launch, and got a direct answer from MJ. 

    The only remaining tough tech thing for launch is the AIR system. Which will obviously take more time than they expect cause that's how that works with this studio/game and it isn't an easy thing to do. 

    I don't think there will be a failure to launch, and I don't think they'll need to only do a minimum viable product.

    I was in a test 2 months ago and one yesterday, and while it isn't close to done, the gameplay feel and enjoyability second-to-second went up like 40% for me over those 2 months. 

    The main issues for me right now are AIR system, combat polish, combat balance, and making complete open world gameplay loops.

    I think they've got a couple of years yet to launch, but I'm realizing how much of what the game is missing is actually fairly fast-to-make polish stuff.


    gervaise1
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,634
    Just flipping through the comments..

    1. No way no how the game will be ready to any type of release within the year. That IMO is a lie to keep the hype / interest and money coming in from backers and investors. 

    2. MJ has bailed in the past before. 

    This game will probably take another 2 years to get into release state. Of course if their current progress is any indication it will likely be longer.
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 454
    edited July 4
    Luiden said:
    I don't think so, it feels like the Wheel of Time to be honest.. or specifically what happened to Robert Jordan.  Everybody kept praising Robert for his incredible level of detail and his later books were 1000 page plus novels that didn't move the story along at all because he was obsessed with detail.   

    It feels like CU is obsessed with large scale wars and getting as many people into 1 spot as possible... but let's be honest here, massive large scale war isn't exactly all that exciting.  It's fun to do a few times but the real enjoyment comes from small scale combat, taking objectives in a timely order.. not fighting for 12 hours straight only to knock down 1 wall. 

    It just feels like all their effort and testing goes into 1 aspect of the game.. if that is the only thing this game does at release I'm going to be really pissed.     
    Agreed most played prefer their actions having a decisive role in pvp oriented achievements. Large scale pvp doesn't have that. Why are all these newer mmorpg trying to push zerging so much? It never works out. Darkfall online is really the only mmorpg where your actions matter in zerg vs zerg, but even then only so much.

    MurderHerd

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 695
    6 years?  Meh.  Concerning, but not catastrophic

    Ask those poor people that backed Star Citizen how they feel.

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  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 Member UncommonPosts: 327
    I don't wanna white-knight too hard here but some things to keep in mind.


    MJ said during the KS that if CU didn't make the KS the game would not have happened. No second KS, no trying to get-by on paypal donations, or investors.  No game. 

    Yes, six years has taken forever, but what was the alternative. CU is a game that needs to be made. Not because it's going to be a hit but because there are too few real MMO's coming out anymore. Everything is hybridized, instanced, and streamlined. I'd like to see a few games willing to go the other-way just to see what happens.


    I see the whole thing has a pre-order, and CU is one of the games i backed on KS I actually feel confidant in. Looking at you CoE and NovusAeterno...... Progress has been slow, but it has been steady. You can see it every week in their updates. I still think the game is a year out, but I have a feeling next year will have even fewer decent games than this one.

    **************************

    As for the games focus on massive numbers of players.... I don't see that so much as the games focus so much as a technological hurdle they feel the need to try and jump. So many PVP games have lag issues in large battles. In fact, every single one I can think of does. The fact CU has spent so much effort to fix the issue is a good thing imho. 

    Crowfall is a lot further along in terms of game play, but every keep siege I've been in lags like a Mofo. So I'm happy CU is going a different route.




    Sooo.... No. I'm not really happy with CU's progress.  It's been six years and the game has no quests, little story, and a single dungeon. They've been working on nothing but the base combat for years. The latest tests I've seen say the game is still ALONG way from being done. It sucks, but theres not much I can do about. I'll keep checking in for tests every few months but I gave up following the game closely and browsing the forums along time ago.

    Then again, I don't think they've done anything really wrong, at least from the newsletters and updates I've read. Shit happens in large projects and the game will come out eventually. Even if most of the backers are dead by the times it comes out.


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,106
    Kyleran said:
    Here's the thing, the gaming landscape is undergoing major paradigm shifts with VR, AR,  next gen consoles/PC hardware and soon all of the new streaming services.

    Will CU and other indies be able to keep pace and finally launch or will they need to go back and retool their games yet again to take best advantage of the new market.

    By the time CU launches, I may very well decide to put away the PC for good and migrate to playing games on consoles or streaming platforms and very likely I'll have a lot of company. 
    Nonsense, though different points are wrong for a variety of reasons.

    VR becoming mainstream to the point that gamers commonly spend hours per day playing it is still a long way off.  Evolutionary advances on existing hardware aren't going to get us there anytime soon.  If we ever reach the point that more gamers say "I won't play that game because it's not VR" than "I won't play that game because it requires VR", that won't come until long after CU is either launched or canceled.

    The gaming move to consoles happened about 40 years ago.  If anything, the direction in the last twenty years has been from consoles to PCs more than the other way around.  You could personally do whatever, but that doesn't mean it's going to be common.

    Game streaming doesn't fundamentally rely on anything about the particular game.  Thin clients can already run arbitrary programs.  There are probably some little optimizations you'd want in order to make streaming less bad than it would otherwise be, but if they need to make those optimizations, they can make them when the time comes.  A heavy move to game streaming wouldn't kill CU unless it goes a long way toward killing off gaming in general.

    And even if any of the paradigm changes you expect do become prevalent, the creation of a new market doesn't mean that the old ones go away.  The last several years have seen the rise of a lot of bad mobile cash grabs, but that doesn't mean that all other games vanished.  There are still plenty of PC games being created and sold.
    KyleranGdemamitweedledumb99
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,278
    I don't wanna white-knight too hard here but some things to keep in mind.


    MJ said during the KS that if CU didn't make the KS the game would not have happened. No second KS, no trying to get-by on paypal donations, or investors.  No game. 

    Yes, six years has taken forever, but what was the alternative. CU is a game that needs to be made. Not because it's going to be a hit but because there are too few real MMO's coming out anymore. Everything is hybridized, instanced, and streamlined. I'd like to see a few games willing to go the other-way just to see what happens.


    I see the whole thing has a pre-order, and CU is one of the games i backed on KS I actually feel confidant in. Looking at you CoE and NovusAeterno...... Progress has been slow, but it has been steady. You can see it every week in their updates. I still think the game is a year out, but I have a feeling next year will have even fewer decent games than this one.

    **************************

    As for the games focus on massive numbers of players.... I don't see that so much as the games focus so much as a technological hurdle they feel the need to try and jump. So many PVP games have lag issues in large battles. In fact, every single one I can think of does. The fact CU has spent so much effort to fix the issue is a good thing imho. 

    Crowfall is a lot further along in terms of game play, but every keep siege I've been in lags like a Mofo. So I'm happy CU is going a different route.




    Sooo.... No. I'm not really happy with CU's progress.  It's been six years and the game has no quests, little story, and a single dungeon. They've been working on nothing but the base combat for years. The latest tests I've seen say the game is still ALONG way from being done. It sucks, but theres not much I can do about. I'll keep checking in for tests every few months but I gave up following the game closely and browsing the forums along time ago.

    Then again, I don't think they've done anything really wrong, at least from the newsletters and updates I've read. Shit happens in large projects and the game will come out eventually. Even if most of the backers are dead by the times it comes out.


    If you're waiting on quests, story, and dungeons to be added to CU, then you backed the wrong game.
    tweedledumb99

    Camelot Unchained Backer
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,315
    edited July 5
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Here's the thing, the gaming landscape is undergoing major paradigm shifts with VR, AR,  next gen consoles/PC hardware and soon all of the new streaming services.

    Will CU and other indies be able to keep pace and finally launch or will they need to go back and retool their games yet again to take best advantage of the new market.

    By the time CU launches, I may very well decide to put away the PC for good and migrate to playing games on consoles or streaming platforms and very likely I'll have a lot of company. 
    Nonsense, though different points are wrong for a variety of reasons.

    VR becoming mainstream to the point that gamers commonly spend hours per day playing it is still a long way off.  Evolutionary advances on existing hardware aren't going to get us there anytime soon.  If we ever reach the point that more gamers say "I won't play that game because it's not VR" than "I won't play that game because it requires VR", that won't come until long after CU is either launched or canceled.

    The gaming move to consoles happened about 40 years ago.  If anything, the direction in the last twenty years has been from consoles to PCs more than the other way around.  You could personally do whatever, but that doesn't mean it's going to be common.

    Game streaming doesn't fundamentally rely on anything about the particular game.  Thin clients can already run arbitrary programs.  There are probably some little optimizations you'd want in order to make streaming less bad than it would otherwise be, but if they need to make those optimizations, they can make them when the time comes.  A heavy move to game streaming wouldn't kill CU unless it goes a long way toward killing off gaming in general.

    And even if any of the paradigm changes you expect do become prevalent, the creation of a new market doesn't mean that the old ones go away.  The last several years have seen the rise of a lot of bad mobile cash grabs, but that doesn't mean that all other games vanished.  There are still plenty of PC games being created and sold.
    Since 2010 sales of desktop PCs has steadily declined from 158M units shipped to a projected 79.5M by 2023.

    Laptops sales are fairing a bit better, only declining from 209M in 2011 to 170M, but many of those are likely not capable of running this sort of game well.

    As this game is being targeted to run "well" on a mid range desk top PC is it unreasonable to assume there are fewer customers capable of buying and playing this game?

    More people are gaming now than ever before, perhaps just not on their desktop PCs.


    https://www.statista.com/statistics/272595/global-shipments-forecast-for-tablets-laptops-and-desktop-pcs/

    There is a qualifier though, sales of gaming PCs has actually been on the rise recently due to the growing eSport market but it remains to be seen how much crossover there might be for those buyers and this sort of title, my guess is not so much.

    https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gaming-pc-sales/?linker=1*uzfehw*clientId*bUVvaXYya3B5Vk1jdjhHU19xcTJ4QzZXeXN4SXV5blBQNWlYb0taTFNSR2tlSC1iUS1JcjBBcS04NGdoT0F5Nw..

    I agree with the assessment VR is likely to remain mostly an outlier, but if the new game streaming services really take hold will CU and other MMOs run well on them, or will devs need to spend more time and effort making sure they do so?
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    TorvalGdemamitweedledumb99

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